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  1. #1006

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    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    The Holocaust is real world history affecting real Jews, including my family. Genosha is comic book fiction. There's a big difference in the moral weight of how those are addressed in fiction vs. meta-text. And again, as people have told you, many of us do not feel they have 'ignored' it.
    Agreed on moral weight and real world vs fiction, retain that in-universe they hold the same weight for each character. Real world, ignoring Magneto's Holocaust history would be far more of a problem and what he went through is obviously more important. In the fictional setting, they're both traumatic genocides, and what each went through should never be forgotten or minimized. I'll admit to speaking rashly and not thinking that difference through enough before making my comment. Will try to be mindful of it going forward, and apologies for that mistake on my part (to anyone reading).


    On the topic of relationships, this is closer to reiterating things I've said before. I think Lorna would be better off dating other women. I think history with Havok has tainted male relationships, and that we've seen its effect in her dynamic with Gambit at times on ANXF as well as with Magneto. Relationships with women, I think are less likely to be tainted because of how rare bad ones have been since the late 80s/early 90s. We have good dynamics with Wanda, Rogue, Rachel, Crystal and Luna, etc to work with.

    I can see potential in Lorna x Cyclops, but I'm not really for it both for reasons above and connection to Havok at a time when Lorna should be far, far away from him. Just one small slip away from Havok coming in and Lorna undermined to play him up some more.
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  2. #1007

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    I will say my personal view that Genosha matters for Lorna several ways.

    1. Blood alone doesn't explain Lorna and Magneto's interaction. You have some fans online that clearly haven't read Lorna since the early 90s thinking Lorna is off because the Commander in Chief to general sort of nature of how they interact in a combat environment is so different then a blog standard super hero team. Knowing something about Genosha is helpful to understand that Lorna knows what it means to act in an army and lead an army at times.

    2. Its very hard for early 90s fans to bridge their opinions on Lorna from 1992 now to Hickman without understanding at least somewhat what went on back then. Her comments for instance about humanity only make sense in that rubric otherwise you have theories put out that make no sense.

    3. It gives the character a reason to fight that are much deeper then simply for dad. Its great they are spending time together, but without Genosha it comes off at times (more in Blue) then now she is doing it for him not because she has a deep seated belief in protecting mutants.

    4. Most titles she has been on since Decimation its been hardly relevant, but it couldn't be more relevant then now with her on a mutant nation trying to make it work, but hanging over her head her ultimate defeat. There is just a lot of juice to be had as with those giving a mutant nation a try who put so much in and lost so much the first time around and don't want to see it lost again.

    I trust Hickman as a writer more then any that has had her in some time and I think he knows and respects her Genosha history based on her line in HoX #5 and believe we will get more down the road on the topic because he has made the event important again while building a new nation.
    Last edited by jmc247; 10-19-2019 at 08:19 PM.

  3. #1008
    Mighty Member powerpax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmc247 View Post
    1. Blood alone doesn't explain Lorna and Magneto's interaction. You have some fans online that clearly haven't read Lorna since the early 90s thinking Lorna is off because the Commander in Chief to general sort of nature of how they interact in a combat environment is so different then a blog standard super hero team. Knowing something about Genosha is helpful to understand that Lorna knows what it means to act in an army and lead an army at times.
    I know you're not speaking re: me (at least, I don't think so), but just to be clear: I do think and have always thought that Genosha and working with Magneto and suffering through that certainly radicalized and destabilized Lorna. But I also think she also had a background in volatility and side-switching decades before that, first in the '60s and then largely artificially via the Malice period.

    I trust Hickman as a writer more then any that has had her in some time and I think he knows and respects her Genosha history based on her line in HoX #5 and believe we will get more down the road on the topic because he has made the event important again while building a new nation.
    As do I. But I also suspect she may end up in X-Corp, and I am more than okay with that, esp if some suspect it involves either the return of Morrison's X-Corporation, or a Genosha rebuilding effort, or both. Being in a satellite book does not preclude X-Men from appearing in Hickman's flagship with its legion rotating cast. (And I still suspect Lorna will appear in the impending Savage Land arc)

  4. #1009

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    60s Lorna was interesting. Many of the themes we saw on Genosha other then the genocide and mutant nation were there. In many ways her Genosha arc was to go back and fix many of the problems of her original storyline while playing on many of the same themes.

    The 70s and 80s was a lot of possession, boyfriend issues and very little characterization.

    Right after she became a lite version of Jean in ‘91-92 until we started to see hints a more radical Lorna in Demattis run on X-Factor as in things like intending to kill SHIELD agents trying to capture her and use her as a weapon to kill Magneto and destroy Avalon. Genosha in the end though was the bridging era where she started regaining her 60s potential.
    Last edited by jmc247; 10-19-2019 at 09:20 PM.

  5. #1010

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    Discussions on Twitter today turned to differences in how traumas is treated and approach in men vs women. Another person pointed out how trauma for white men tends to be fridge moments where people they care about suffer, trauma for non-white men tends to be acted on/abused or reaction to social injustice, while women tend to get raped or experimented on.

    During those discussions, I started thinking about when Lorna and the rest of the Starjammers were getting tortured in space by Vulcan.

    Here's what we got from Havok's male POV in Kingbreaker (2009).




    Everyone's getting tortured, and from here, Lorna going through it is all about Havok's manpain at having to hear her. I don't talk about it much, but this sort of treatment of her actually does tick me off.

    However, comparing it to elsewhere in the same story where we see it closer to Lorna's POV...



    In her scenes, for some reason she's asleep, but somehow resisting the drugs and trying to fight Vulcan when she does. Which is good, but it's a very stark contrast between how her trauma is treated when the focus is on building up Havok vs when it's actually about Lorna's own actions and experiences.


    My posting this also opens to me saying a bit more about things Lorna's been through. Lorna was tortured by Vulcan in space, which is one of many traumas that Lorna's been through (along with Malice possession, repeated mind control, Zaladane stealing her powers and having insulting new ones in their place, getting turned into Pestilence, etc). Since the roster of X-Men #1 was seen, I could've said Lorna needs to go after Vulcan for that torture. Yet I don't, compared to how I say Genosha needs to be acknowledged and used and that it's insulting how it isn't.

    What's the difference? Between the Genoshan genocide and Vulcan torturing her, what happened to her on Genosha carries way way more weight and scale, had very clear immediate consequences on her, and served as a major positive shift in her development. What happened to her with Vulcan was very low personal scale, didn't have any real consequences on her or affect her development in any way. And, what happened to Lorna on Genosha has always been very relevant to ongoing major events, especially recently. While her getting tortured by Vulcan only has any bearing if she interacts with Vulcan or someone's doing a deep introspective dive into all Lorna's been through.
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  6. #1011
    Mighty Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    The Holocaust is real world history affecting real Jews, including my family. Genosha is comic book fiction. There's a big difference in the moral weight of how those are addressed in fiction vs. meta-text. And again, as people have told you, many of us do not feel they have 'ignored' it.
    That won't stop many others, including on CBR, from comparing X-Men fiction to real life though, as well as comparing the Holocaust to Genosha.

    Speaking of which, considering how the aftermath of the Holocaust resulted in its numerous depictions in media and documentaries, memorials and museums being built, Jewish-related organizations being established, reparations being given, and considerably big backlash by those opposing anti-semitic events/tragedies that happen in modern times, I'm inclined to ask, exactly how much of the aftermath of the Holocaust is reflected in the aftermath of Genosha on Earth-616?

  7. #1012

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    Since nobody else has said anything yet...

    It's been suggested that writing of the aftermath of Genosha could be more of a reflection on 9/11 than the Holocaust. New X-Men #132, where Lorna was pulled out of the rubble and all, was released in November 2002.

    It doesn't really change the question of how much influence the Holocaust had on the events of Genosha, though. It would certainly make sense for Genosha to weigh heavy on Magneto given he already survived one genocide as a Jewish man only for one to happen to the mutants he gathered on Genosha. It's why I've never said "why is Magneto talking about Genosha when he has the Holocaust to cite." They both apply to him and are both important.

    If someone at Marvel really, really, really wants to do more for Lorna with her father, though, Genosha is also common ground. It's why I didn't like Blue using Mutant Massacre in the Mojo issues. That incident was purely Magneto, when it could have very easily utilized Genosha which both characters have huge stakes in. But, as I'm typing this, I can also see why writers would shy away from trying to write Lorna and Magneto relating over Genosha. The genocide is weighty. Marvel already has a huge problem with inability to write Lorna as her own character around men. They may not really feel capable of handling it right for both characters as they interact, since writers could run the risk of trivializing what Lorna went through.
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  8. #1013

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    HoX #5: 139,306

    Big rise from issue #4 which is abnormal for an event and the best selling comic Lorna has been in since AvX #7 though the appearance would be more comparable to the size of her role to HoM #5.

    I will just say this. Hickman has done a lot to prove he hasn't fallen into the generic 'empowered' female character trap with her. The x-books have dozens of those so what makes Lorna special is different and its not who she dated or who she is related to. She has retained some of her voice and history which has been implicitly referenced and she was given some of her own philosophical views in a high selling comic x-crossover. If it continues we have to wait and see.

    Though its perfectly fine with any fan promoting what pathos they would like to see as the background force for the character besides who her love interests are and who she is related to. Though I will say from my experience writers want to feel like they not the fans set the pathos. That is understandable which is why I pointed out and will so again Hickman implicitly in #5 referenced her residual feelings in regards to the genocide. That was his idea. Certainly, it would be great to see more of it and I have a reasonable degree of hope we will.
    Last edited by jmc247; 10-21-2019 at 09:57 AM.

  9. #1014

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    There are many paths to how the same basic issue can be handled. For one writer, Genosha could mean Lorna wanting nothing to do with Krakoa due to some issue with it. For another writer, Genosha could mean she demands a seat at the leadership table to prevent something like Genosha happening again. For yet another writer, Lorna may simply be a tucked away living book/historian of Genosha that rarely comes up but still holds a respectable place. For still yet another writer, she might be a missionary of sorts, going out into the world to relate to humans why Krakoa exists from a basis of what happened to her on Genosha. And another, perhaps she's in charge of security forces because of a deep-seated pathos to protect millions now when she failed to do so before. As a final suggestion, maybe it doesn't really affect plans with her beyond occasional mentions.

    Writers can do many things with Lorna out of her Genosha history. Saying "that history needs to be acknowledged and used" isn't the same as saying Hickman "must" use it a certain way. There are undoubtedly great directions possible that no fan has thought of. But a necessary prerequisite of any of those directions is acknowledging it happened at all.

    So far, what I've seen, as far as I see it, only really counts as acknowledging her history if you place a lot of faith in Marvel. I don't. If it really is meant to imply her Genosha history, then it's Marvel dangling carrots to me. "You want this? Here's the tip. There, you should be satisfied for, oh, 10 years now, right?"
    Last edited by salarta; 10-21-2019 at 11:21 AM.
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  10. #1015
    Astonishing Member Soulsword323's Avatar
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    I'm happy to see HoX doing well. Its great exposure for Lorna, and its something she really needs in the comics. I'm hoping that X-Men #1 does just as well. It's exciting that she's actually being well utilized in a major X-Men event.

  11. #1016

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    Two inktober Polarises by grayhill, first of her with Pietro



    Piece by howardshum
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  12. #1017
    Astonishing Member AbnormallyNormal's Avatar
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    What makes more sense:

    Lorna given her experiences with Genosha (of course we must include Emma Frost here then too) - Should she:

    1) Be wary and leery about Krakoa, and basically try to keep an emotional distance and become skeptical about the project?

    2) Throw herself in with full force, believes this is a "second chance" to "make it right"?
    Chris Claremont, Peter David, Mike Carey, Cullen Bunn = canon. Others = fanfic.

  13. #1018
    Ultimate Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbnormallyNormal View Post
    What makes more sense:

    Lorna given her experiences with Genosha (of course we must include Emma Frost here then too) - Should she:

    1) Be wary and leery about Krakoa, and basically try to keep an emotional distance and become skeptical about the project?

    2) Throw herself in with full force, believes this is a "second chance" to "make it right"?
    Id rather the first option bc almost everyone else is fully supporting Krakoa. It would make more sense to have some detractors and given what she went through, she should be skeptical.

  14. #1019
    Astonishing Member Soulsword323's Avatar
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    Somewhere in between the two, leaning more towards the second.

    I don't think it'd make sense for Lorna's character to be too against it. I think she should be pro-mutant, and that's what Krakoa is all about. So I don't think she would be adamantly against it, or be overly skeptical. However, I do think knowing what she's been through, that she should have some concerns that she should express, and have doubts and worries about how to avoid what occurred before. I do think the Polaris would want another chance to correct what happened to her and Genosha in the past, and this is the perfect opportunity to do so.
    Last edited by Soulsword323; 10-21-2019 at 06:48 PM.

  15. #1020

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    Quote Originally Posted by AbnormallyNormal View Post
    What makes more sense:

    Lorna given her experiences with Genosha (of course we must include Emma Frost here then too) - Should she:

    1) Be wary and leery about Krakoa, and basically try to keep an emotional distance and become skeptical about the project?

    2) Throw herself in with full force, believes this is a "second chance" to "make it right"?
    Its not just about second chances for a mutant nation (or 3 or 4th chances)... its about the potential of her achieving her dream and not just that perhaps even bringing back the dead for what she believes is her biggest life failure. Am I supposed to believe Lorna who believes the millions of dead on Genosha is her fault and had their last memories ring through her head would be against bringing them back? Talk about the ultimate reward... that yes most certainly a reward that could and may well be too good to be true. But, also is also too good to imagine her not doing almost anything to make it a reality even with worries.

    From a pure looking at roles standpoint with the Krakoan government and military (Captains) and special ops cut off from Lorna Havok83 is correct she is easy to fit in the role as the 'voice of reason' and the 'contrarian' against the arrangement and constantly questioning everything. It’s a terrible role, because she ends up with no center and no real core beliefs or views. Lorna being a mutant nationalist was her first solidified stance that made her at all different then any of the other X-Men and the rest of the X-Men pick it up suddenly and she suddenly moves against her own old views?

    That would destroy the idea that Lorna has any real views on mutant issues or that she at all deserves to be heir to one of the founders of the X-Men's legacy. Blood doesn't make her deserving its what she is willing to fight for. Questioning if they are setting things up for another genocide on occasion? Sure. Going out of her way to protect the island from enemies foreign and internal? Sure. Being the official questioner.... and contrarian character to fill a slot because the other slots are taken? Hell No.

    Genosha was her dream turned to ashes. A certain degree of skepticism is certainly warranted, but I am completely against her falling into the role of the contrarian against her own dream potentially resurrected and believe it would be long term destructive to the character no matter if her fears prove true or not in a few years, because at the end of the day it would be the final step in pigeonholing the character as someone with no dream or core beliefs.
    Last edited by jmc247; 10-22-2019 at 07:53 AM.

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