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  1. #751

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    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    Preemptive goalpost shifting, I like it
    Not really, but feel free to think that.

    I'll admit I was surprised that a) she had any kind of appearance in HoX/PoX and b) (supposedly) X-Men #1 will use her, but neither has made me rethink my expectations as a whole. My experience to date has been one where Marvel appears to give her something as cover for screwing her some other way. Prime example #1 being how they permitted Lorna interacting with Wanda and Pietro as siblings on ANXF as cover for the soon-to-come Axis retcon. Prime example #2 being how Secret Wars: House of M gave her a good presence and lots of cameos as cover for the next two years of nothing.

    In the past, I used to perceive apparently good moments as signs that Marvel was trying to improve and treat her better. Marvel's taught me that I was wrong to put that kind of faith in them on multiple occasions over the past 10 years.


    I also wonder what the turn-around time for script to art to publish is. Because that turn-around time can mean the difference between "we already had plans for Lorna and you just judged it too soon" and "let's change this character here to Polaris because fans are asking for her." Lamenting the nature of humans and then hearing a man philosophize about evolution doesn't require having history with the man, after all. Current usage has been entirely interchangeable with just about any other character Marvel has.
    Last edited by salarta; 10-02-2019 at 04:19 PM.
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  2. #752
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    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post
    I also wonder what the turn-around time for script to art to publish is. Because that turn-around time can mean the difference between "we already had plans for Lorna and you just judged it too soon" and "let's change this character here to Polaris because fans are asking for her."
    This miniseries has been scripted for many, many months and the book and new launch have been in dev for years. It was not some sudden change.

    Lamenting the nature of humans and then hearing a man philosophize about evolution doesn't require having history with the man, after all. Current usage has been entirely interchangeable with just about any other character Marvel has.
    So what should Lorna be doing if not having that scene with her father, and espousing her own beliefs? Because that's what she did. How is that interchangeable and what should she be doing instead?

  3. #753

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    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    This miniseries has been scripted for many, many months and the book and new launch have been in dev for years. It was not some sudden change.
    Having something scripted for months and development for years doesn't mean a singular small, expository role within the mass could not be altered pre-art. This isn't like deciding to use Moira and then suddenly changing her with Storm, where the character's history is absolutely essential to the telling and would radically change where it went and what stories got told out of it. This is just a character filling the role of "I don't know stuff and need to be told."

    To make sure everything's on the same page, here's what I am looking at when I say the above. The combination of pages contained at these places.

    https://why-i-love-comics.tumblr.com...nathan-hickman
    https://oxymitch.tumblr.com/post/187...ected-with-the

    Dropping in the word "father" is the only thing I can see not interchangeable with any other character.

    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    So what should Lorna be doing if not having that scene with her father, and espousing her own beliefs? Because that's what she did. How is that interchangeable and what should she be doing instead?
    You raise a good point here in asking what Lorna should be doing. I have not provided hypotheticals. So here are some.

    Lorna survived the Genoshan genocide. It was horrible, and the trauma just flat out wiped her out mentally and emotionally. That history puts Lorna in the absolute perfect place for recounting the personal toll human discrimination against mutants has had. Not just a body count. Actual lived, persistent suffering. Heck, if she still has the voices of Genosha's final moments deep inside her somewhere, she could either create a memorial or hold some special new honored position relating to that.

    The U.S. government at one time wanted to turn Lorna into a contingency plan weapon to fight against Magneto. That history could have been used to drive the point of how humans have seen mutants as either objects or threats, to be either destroyed or exploited to human ends.

    Lorna previously launched Krakoa into space. That history could have been used to delve deeper into Krakoa's nature - danger it posed when handled wrong, or to go into how its potential (like Lorna herself) was misunderstood and dismissed. In fact, in a better Marvel, there could have been neat parallels between the two in a "new era" where mutants and their potential aren't taken for granted anymore (both in-universe and meta-textual, real life decisions).

    No doubt I could come up with all kinds of scenarios and fill many posts with them. The point is this: Lorna sitting next to Magneto listening to him talk is a far cry from what's possible with her. It's better than showing up as line-less wallpaper or Havok's arm candy girlfriend, but it comes nowhere near tapping into who she is and what she offers. I would honestly say that so far, the Uncanny event did better, because it had her pair up with X-23 for an attack and show she can use her powers to read EM fields.
    Last edited by salarta; 10-02-2019 at 05:02 PM.
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  4. #754
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    Let me save us the time: Hickman is not hastily rewriting his event book to accommodate a character which we all acknowledge is presently, unfortunately C-tier. There is simply not enough groundswell behind her and never has been to make a change like that, nor are writers usually ever inclined to anyway. He used Polaris because he chose to use Polaris in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post
    Dropping in the word "father" is the only thing I can see not interchangeable with any other character.
    Not every X-character shares Lorna's well-deserved disdain for humans of late. It was a choice by the writer and may well tie into future usage. You find it interchangeable, I find it of a piece with the Lorna I was interested in when Grant Morrison briefly used her. One of the few writers who has bothered to make her as interesting as her synopsis in over 30 years of reading, for me.

    Lorna survived the Genoshan genocide. It was horrible, and the trauma just flat out wiped her out mentally and emotionally. That history puts Lorna in the absolute perfect place for recounting the personal toll human discrimination against mutants has had. Not just a body count.
    Just like Magneto, and Xavier, who have both alluded to Genosha in HOXPOX. However, this maxiseries is about resetting the larger macro-status quo for the entire X-Men line. It's not a book full of character moments or personal testimonials from various X-Men about how those past events pertain to them. 70-80% of the major X-Men characters have either barely been seen or have yet to be seen at all in the series, because its purpose is not about that - those beats and stories will come with the new launch. The current series' focus is the founders of Krakoa, and the creation of the new nation and status. Polaris isn't one of those founders any more than Iceman, Beast, Angel, Psylocke, X-23, etc. Even Scott, Jean and Wolverine have had their fans complaining they're 'not in it enough'. It's because that stuff is not what this maxi is about.

    Lorna previously launched Krakoa into space. That history could have been used to delve deeper into Krakoa's nature - danger it posed when handled wrong, or to go into how its potential (like Lorna herself) was misunderstood and dismissed. In fact, in a better Marvel, there could have been neat parallels between the two in a "new era" where mutants and their potential aren't taken for granted anymore (both in-universe and meta-textual, real life decisions).
    Again, the Krakoa mythos is something definitely being explored a great deal in Hickman's future X-books. But right now, Lorna going on about how she launched the old one into space is not important to HOXPOX. Can you acknowledge that, or not?

    I would honestly say that so far, the Uncanny event did better, because it had her pair up with X-23 for an attack and show she can use her powers to read EM fields.
    That's feats, it's not character and it's not relevant to this book.

  5. #755
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    Lmao at thinking Hickman wrote that scene to appease you, Salarta. He wrote it because he wanted to write it.

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    I'll say this though..Mystique HAS NO PLACE on that council. She's not smart enough nor interesting enough for that role. She's a psycho that tried to kill her surrogate daughter..threw her son away like trash. She should of given the Sabretooth treatment too.
    Last edited by MichelleDiMera; 10-03-2019 at 07:54 AM.

  7. #757
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichelleDiMera View Post
    I'll say this though..Mystique HAS NO PLACE on that council. She's smart enough nor interesting enough for that role. She's a psycho that tried to kill her surrogate daughter..threw her son away like trash. She should of given the Sabretooth treatment too.
    I agree with this. It should have been Destiny all day.

  8. #758
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    Not every X-character shares Lorna's well-deserved disdain for humans of late. It was a choice by the writer and may well tie into future usage. You find it interchangeable, I find it of a piece with the Lorna I was interested in when Grant Morrison briefly used her. One of the few writers who has bothered to make her as interesting as her synopsis in over 30 years of reading, for me.
    You correct that is the one other line that isn't interchangeable with any other x-character. It really only makes sense considering the backdrop of Lorna's Genosha experience. The reviewers who actually know her history seemed to pick that up.

    In this issue the only characters to speak are mutants, and humanity is typically only spoken of as being the enemy; the other. “Man has killed so many of us” Xavier says to Magneto, aware that he is saying this to one of the few survivors of the Genoshan genocide.

    Another of those survivors, Polaris, appears at the start of the issue and asks her father if there is any good in humanity at all, before watching a mutant miracle. Elswhere Emma Frost mocks humanity

    https://shelfdust.com/2019/09/19/one...-house-of-x-5/
    But, not all fans or reviewers know enough about her history to have picked up on that because it was subtext of an event that happened nearly two decades ago our time.

    My issue was not anything in House of X or Powers of X which is a really strong series though mostly world building which needs to be taken into account. The council idea is great as is the entire set up. Its simply Magneto's role unlike Genosha doesn't need him to have a right hand and he certainly doesn't need an adviser and she isn't on the council.

    She currently can be muscle for the occasional mission when a heavy hitter is needed that is likely to occur, but I don't see how she can involved in the politics which will enable her to show her stuff and interact with other x-characters unless she can be maneuvered her into the position of one on the council as MichelleDiMera alluded to. I appreciate what Hickman has done for her so far as well as the X-Men and I think its important to say that because he is doing a damn good job and I am happy to be buying his series, but the structure of the politics of the island at the moment means her overall ability to use the set up to play to show her chops isn't there as yet.

    I am not going to withhold my money from a series that is really great on the account of not getting all that I want. At the same point in time I also recognize the set up has some rather significant limits for Lorna compared to a political set up where she is part of politics or where Magneto is leading a faction and he needs a right hand.
    Last edited by jmc247; 10-03-2019 at 07:46 AM.

  9. #759
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    Quote Originally Posted by Punch Dimension. View Post
    I agree with this. It should have been Destiny all day.
    Selene or maybe even Stryfe..even he is more redeemable and sensible than Mystique. I mean..Mystique is a LOSER. She should be where Sabretooth without thinking twice.

  10. #760
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmc247 View Post
    You correct that is the one other line that isn't interchangeable with any other x-character. It really only makes sense considering the backdrop of Lorna's Genosha experience. The reviewers who actually know her history seemed to pick that up.



    But, not all fans or reviewers know enough about her history to have picked up on that because it was subtext of an event that happened nearly two decades ago our time.

    My issue was not anything in House of X or Powers of X which is a really strong series though mostly world building which needs to be taken into account. The council idea is great as is the entire set up. Its simply Magneto's role unlike Genosha doesn't need him to have a right hand and he certainly doesn't need an adviser and she isn't on the council.

    She currently can be muscle for the occasional mission when a heavy hitter is needed that is likely to occur, but I don't see how she can involved in the politics which will enable her to show her stuff and interact with other x-characters unless she can be maneuvered her into the position of one on the council as MichelleDiMera alluded to. I appreciate what Hickman has done for her so far as well as the X-Men and I think its important to say that because he is doing a damn good job and I am happy to be buying his series, but the structure of the politics of the island at the moment means her overall ability to use the set up to play to show her chops isn't there as yet.

    I am not going to withhold my money from a series that is really great on the account of not getting all that I want. At the same point in time I also recognize the set up has some rather significant limits for Lorna compared to a political set up where she is part of politics or where Magneto is leading a faction and he needs a right hand.
    And from solicits, we dont even know where Magneto ends up..unless he really is in the main X men book.

  11. #761

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    Hi, I'm back.

    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    Let me save us the time: Hickman is not hastily rewriting his event book to accommodate a character which we all acknowledge is presently, unfortunately C-tier.
    I take nothing as guaranteed here. I've seen how Brevoort behaved over Lorna. I've seen covers changed at the last minute. I saw Rosenberg get called out for how he wrote Wolfsbane's death, and his apology over it.

    I've seen enough to know people at Marvel can and sometimes do change their plans based on what they see from fans. You're making an assumption that Hickman wouldn't change one scene that could be played out with any character because it's the easiest thing to believe as he juggles many characters, but it being easier to believe doesn't mean it's how things happened. Further, that assumption implies Hickman thinks he's so important and perfect that he doesn't need to consider what anyone says about his work and adjust.

    More importantly, it presumes that writers aren't people who can decide to treat a character differently than what would be expected from their placement on a perceived "list." You can have an A-lister that's completely excluded cause the writer hates them, and a Z-lister who stars in everything cause the writer loves them.

    Lorna has a different take on these matters than Xavier or Magneto. What she went through is not "covered" by the two of them combined even if Marvel likes to pretend it is. Sure, it's inevitable and reasonable that they would be heavily used and promoted on these matters given their history, but they don't cover everything.

    You presume that I think the book should be full of random character moments. I don't. You don't need to make a whole issue about Lorna to give her a scene akin to how Storm served as a "goddess" of sorts to the revived X-Men, which played to Storm's past perception and status as said goddess. Lorna could have easily had just as many panels (not even pages; panels) as she had already to, say, pass along her memory of Genosha to mutants so they understand those horrors. Or even a single panel that has her in the background telling her story.

    I can agree that Lorna launching Krakoa into space isn't essential. But it not being essential doesn't have to mean total absence as if it never happened. You could have a scene of characters talking about anything while an epitaph in the background depicts the moment she launched Krakoa into space. Hell, you could have a variant cover of that moment, that shows Storm, Cyclops and Havok all shooting energy at her to boost her powers so she could do it. She's been on literally zero covers so far, not even the X-women one where other "C-listers" have a spot.

    A common problem I see with fans of franchises or writers is thinking these things need to go in extreme binaries - either everything or nothing. These binaries are false. There are shades in between.
    Last edited by salarta; 10-03-2019 at 06:41 PM.
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  12. #762
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    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post
    Lorna has a different take on these matters than Xavier or Magneto. What she went through is not "covered" by the two of them combined even if Marvel likes to pretend it is. Sure, it's inevitable and reasonable that they would be heavily used and promoted on these matters given their history, but they don't cover everything.
    That's fine, but again, it still doesn't factor into these books. Xavier, Magneto and Moira have founded Krakoa and the new status quo. They are largely the primary focus; every other character is ancillary, even mainstays like Scott, Jean and Logan. Lorna is not different in that respect. Notice characters like Colossus, Magik, etc. haven't even appeared. Archangel for a few panels. Iceman for one. I could name tons of characters more 'important' than Lorna who have had less to do. That's because this book isn't about any of them. Their time comes later. Lorna's can as well. Insisting that the only way to 'prove' a new commitment to Polaris is to shove her into this story where she's not supposed to be is a losing battle and is not going to sway anyone.

    You're making an assumption that Hickman wouldn't change one scene that could be played out with any character because it's the easiest thing to believe as he juggles many characters, but it being easier to believe doesn't mean it's how things happened. Further, that assumption implies Hickman thinks he's so important and perfect that he doesn't need to consider what anyone says about his work and adjust.
    No. I'm assuming, correctly, that the Polaris fandom is simply not influential enough to get Marvel or Hickman's notice and force him to make changes to an event book. That doesn't often happen to most B or C-list writers approached by bigger character fandoms. And Hickman is an A-list writer and this is a major title. He's using the characters he wants to use. He deemed Polaris significant to him based on his own choices, not based on a handful of tweets. You're attempting to imply fanbase power or agency over this writer and his book where no demonstrative agency so far exists - because if it did, Polaris would have not have been in the discount bin of X-characters for years and years. Her cancelled and poorly reviewed network TV show virtually no one watched (and which Marvel/Disney proper had zero investment or interest in) hasn't changed that. I like Lorna, I always have, but that is brutal honesty.

    The good news, again, is that Hickman chose to use Polaris in his book and will do so again very shortly. That's something to be happy about, instead of attempting to redefine it solely on your own terms.

  13. #763

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    The other characters you highlighted in your post have one or more of three things that Lorna does not.

    One, heavy use in recent years in other places - a main team member of X-Men Gold, a dedicated solo book, etc.

    Two, presence as mainstays in books afterward. Magik is on New Mutants, Colossus is on X-Force.

    Three, presence on covers. No, the "every mutant ever" cover does not count.

    As I just finished saying, proving commitment to Lorna does not require shoving her places she "doesn't belong." There are MULTIPLE places she could fit without being forced. I went out of my way to give suggestions wherein the bare minimum was Lorna appearing in one panel in the background of "more important matters" as a small and simple nod to her value. I could have said she belongs with the Hellfire Club because of Gifted. I could have said she belongs in the Genoshan cabinet because she was a key member of the original Genosha, and she suffered like hell from its genocide. I'm arguing the bare minimum and I'm being told even the bare minimum is asking for too much. I suppose the "lesson" I'm supposed to "learn" is that Lorna shouldn't get anything and I should bow down in rapturous thanks if someone so much as looks like her.

    I won't do that though. I know what happens. Marvel sees that as permission to ruin her and screw her over to promote other characters at her expense, or to just flat out throw her away like she's worthless and do nothing with her. Which Marvel may still do. But if they do, I can at least draw attention to it. I'm not going to stop just because the current case is a major event Marvel's heavily promoting and a lot of people like as a result.

    And no, I'm also not going to go along with the running implication of "she's a lowly C-lister whose popularity is zilch and her most notable projects were garbage." On the matter of Gifted, I stopped watching it toward the end of season 1 cause the writers did horribly with character death. Your argument implies its failure reflected lack of interest in Lorna, and I know for a fact that's not the case from my own experience.
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    The philosophical lines have changed utterly. Xavier and most of the rest of the X-Men? If you take them as the side of the better angels and we don't know as yet in regard to Xavier himself because he has some hidden cards then they just represent a pole which has shifted to where Lorna was philosophically in the year 2000 on Genosha.

    Apocalypse, Sinister, and perhaps Exodus represent the side to watch as they are the allies who just might decide this is weak sauce and decide world conquest and subjugation interests them more. Magneto, Emma Frost and it looks like Lorna (likely as well though it will be more clear in two weeks) represent the new middle and should be able to be interesting bridging characters. I am sure they will use that potential with Magneto and Emma though with Lorna we will have to wait though it might not be long with NYCC going on.

    Rosenburg on Uncanny tried to do a set up piece with the mutant cure and the mass mutant deaths at the hands of humans including a Summers brother on why they would leave to a new mutant homeland. I felt the quality of his final issues wasn't great at all, but its important to understand for those who aren't reading the comics why X-Men are suddenly on Krakoa. The human governments went for mutant kinds throat again pushing mutants into a reactionary posture.
    Last edited by jmc247; 10-03-2019 at 09:36 PM.

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    Where do we think Polaris is headed and what book might she be in?

    I enjoyed a lot her one issue appearance, as a sort of world-weary yet somehow innocent-seeming daughter of Magneto.

    I like what jmc said about the ideological shift and vastly increased moral ambiguity (although I'm not sure it's going to last long!) allowing for Polaris' "edge" to be given back to her and yet not force her into a far fringe on an asteroid somewhere either with her dad.

    I do hope/believe Lorna is at peace with her father in this new status quo, and she shouldn't be his "shadow" but I hope she tries in her own way to live up to his legacy and ideals I guess.

    Unfortunately Kitty Pryde has been chosen by Emma Frost for the Red Queen position... that would have been a natural one for Lorna... without that I really don't know where she'll go but i hope someplace meaningful.
    Forget the old ways - Krakoa is god.

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