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  1. #811
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    Whatever plans that may have been had when X-Men Blue started with Lorna happened under a different editor and a pre-Hickman set of plans. It was pretty clear the previous editor was pushed out as part of the whole making way for Hickman's plans and clearing the deck.

    I felt like the previous set of plans was moving towards a back to the beginning set up of the Brotherhood and a good mutant + good human government vs bad mutant framework. One could see such a set up in late 2018 being promoted in the cards and other things being promoted. But, it would have taken another year or two to get to where they were planning without Hickman stepping in. I think Bunn basically rushed his ending post Cry Havok. Titles are planned many months if not years in advance. Rosenburg was brought on by Marvel before Hickman.

    Hickman's plans take Morrison's idea of a mutant society and culture to the next level.
    Last edited by jmc247; 10-07-2019 at 10:01 AM.

  2. #812
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmc247 View Post
    Whatever plans that may have been had when X-Men Blue started with Lorna happened under a different editor and a pre-Hickman set of plans. It was pretty clear the previous editor was pushed out as part of the whole making way for Hickman's plans and clearing the deck.

    I felt like the previous set of plans was moving towards a back to the beginning set up of the Brotherhood and an a good mutant + good human government vs bad mutant framework. One could see such a set up in late 2018 being promoted in the cards and other things being promoted. But, it would have taken another year or two to get to where they were planning without Hickman stepping in. I think Bunn basically rushed his ending post Cry Havok. Titles are planned many months if not years in advance. Rosenburg was brought on by Marvel before Hickman.

    Hickman's plans take Morrison's idea of a mutant society and culture to the next level.
    I'm very upset they ruined BLUE and then basically got rid of Bunn making him abort his plots and characterizations and force him to RUIN Magneto... and then they went "nah nevermind"????

    Like what a slap in the face

    Shaking head slowly

    Like I know you dislike Lorna in BLUE but that was a damn good Lorna actually

    Her wearing a more casual/uniform that finally gave her a different color scheme? That in itself was crucial

    She led an impromptu team of mutants

    She got along VERY well with her dad

    THESE ARE BIG POSITIVES...

    She was portrayed as competent in battle and in strategy...

    Honestly I'm kinda mystified at people nitpicking her on BLUE, like honestly it was something like a 7/10 for her if not 8/10.

    In some ways the aesthetic choices for her IMPLY things about her philosophical outlook that might not be textually present
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  3. #813
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbnormallyNormal View Post
    I'm very upset they ruined BLUE and then basically got rid of Bunn making him abort his plots and characterizations and force him to RUIN Magneto... and then they went "nah nevermind"????

    Like what a slap in the face

    Shaking head slowly
    I didn't think they did Bunn justice, but I also think his turn with Magneto was his plan he executed quickly and poorly because his comic was coming to an end and not forced from on high by editorial to fit Hickman's plans (as really they don't at all). It was pretty clear based on what he was doing the failures of the 05 and Briar were pushing Magneto into a more aggressive direction and that would have probably happened over the span of 2018 and 2019 until he had reformed the Brotherhood which he said was always his endgame.

    Bunn didn't want to write Blue, but he was bribed by giving him the use of Magneto. It was pretty clear he was going to try out Xavier's dream for awhile until it was 'time' for him to get a new Magneto centric title again like Bunncanny and for him to be the core antagonist of the line.

    Like I know you dislike Lorna in BLUE but that was a damn good Lorna actually

    Her wearing a more casual/uniform that finally gave her a different color scheme? That in itself was crucial

    She led an impromptu team of mutants

    She got along VERY well with her dad

    THESE ARE BIG POSITIVES...

    She was portrayed as competent in battle and in strategy...

    Honestly I'm kinda mystified at people nitpicking her on BLUE, like honestly it was something like a 7/10 for her if not 8/10.

    In some ways the aesthetic choices for her IMPLY things about her philosophical outlook that might not be textually present
    What does Lorna think about Magneto killing the future Brotherhood? What does Lorna think about Magneto's view on using deadly force if needed against foes in Cry Havok? Her outfit being green or blue or wearing clothes at all is something that doesn't matter to me as it does to some others.

    In one issue Hickman did more to explain how Lorna sees mutant/human relations then Bunn did in two dozen. That isn't to say Blue was bad for Lorna, but for the things I care about they were sorely lacking. Lorna having a good relationship with Magneto on its own is fine, but I don't know what Lorna's positive relationship with Magneto was based on in Blue other then Magneto being her long absent father and I think it should be more complex then that.

    I don't want to regurgitate old fights. I appreciate many of the things that happened under Bunn's run with her. But, I am not sure what motivated his Lorna outside of her emotional connection to Havok and Magneto or what her ethical or philosophical views were. That is the sort of stuff that is bread and butter for me.
    Last edited by jmc247; 10-07-2019 at 10:45 AM.

  4. #814
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    For the past year, all these comics have been a place holder while Hickman readied what he wanted to do with the X-Men. I don't think he was mandating anything super specific for characters, and I don't think he was involved with what was done with Lorna in AOX-Man, and Rosenberg's Uncanny. I think that's what's being implied here, and I don't think its true.

  5. #815
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    I believe there was an understanding starting around X-Men Disassembled to start (in the background) things toward pushing the mutants toward going to a mutant homeland with the start of the poorly executed mutant cure plotline, but behind that no mandate toward individual characters and their storylines.

    The mutant cure plotline at the time those comics happened I was scratching my head about as it didn't fit into the overall story in any real way that the writers wanted to tell of the X-Men vs X-Man and his mind controlled slaves. The only thing it served as in time was a plot device to push mutants to embrace a mutant homeland.

    Editorial didn't force Bunn to make Magneto recreate the Brotherhood, that as he said in interviews was his plan all along. I have the feeling that he condensed about a years worth of his own plans into a few issues post Cry Havok.
    Last edited by jmc247; 10-07-2019 at 11:34 AM.

  6. #816

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    Quote Originally Posted by AbnormallyNormal View Post
    Honestly I'm kinda mystified at people nitpicking her on BLUE, like honestly it was something like a 7/10 for her if not 8/10.
    My biggest problem with handling of her on Blue was Lorna exploited to promote Havok, and the bait-and-switch of it where it LOOKED like Marvel might actually give her a shot (despite my doubts) only to pull that. Followed by how scenes in the roughly first half of Blue basically defined her only in terms of her father. Things like only calling her "Daughter of Magneto" when she showed up, or Lorna acting surprised when there was an attack on HQ so Magneto could mansplain to her something she should know after Genosha, or Lorna acting as if the Malice costume was just some weird dress-up and not a visual representation of a terrible period in her life.

    For what it's worth, Blue did improve treatment of her in the second half from the first half. She got to show more independence, more of her history, and there was the "instead of calling me daughter of Magneto, how about Lorna" scene that fans seem to like moreso than most of her use on Blue. It still had using her for Havok promo though, and the terrible (in depiction, not quality of art) cover for Blue #28.

    I stress Blue, not Bunn, here because I don't know how much of the bad stuff about the second half of Blue was Bunn and how much was Marvel dictating things that Bunn had to put up with. At the time, it came across to me as Bunn's decisions, or at the very least that he was letting it happen. Nowadays it sounds like he got screwed over according to what other fans have been saying.

    Lorna leading her own team was something she had on ANXF, and did for herself, not couched inside a storyline primarily about Havok. The Malice story was neutral; it didn't return to bad things, but it also didn't bring any new insights or empathy to Lorna and what she's been through. The costume was another case of her wearing a team uniform just because, unlike how ANXF had a reason behind the costume I could at least begrudgingly accept ("you're part of a company, this is company branding"; albeit the costume still could've included personal touches like Gambit and Pietro had).

    As long as I'm typing, one of the good things I can say about what I've seen with Hickman is that he's at least embracing mutants having unique costumes instead of trying to force team costumes on them.
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  7. #817
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    I just don't find Bunn very interesting on team books in general.

    - He wrote Blue, an editorially mandated book with a team he didn't want in a period of extreme wheel-spinning for the X-books. The banter between the O5 and Magneto was cute but the book went nowhere. A lot of tin-eared dialogue as well.
    - He wrote UXM in another wheel-spinning period that went nowhere. A mildly diverting book with a quirky team and a story that also went nowhere.
    - I found his Polaris as mediocre as anyone else's.

    Just not worth discussing for me. YMMV

  8. #818

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    Specific to Lorna, there was a lot of potential in Blue for usage of her that was squandered.

    She could've interacted heavily with teen Jean and teen Iceman. Both are characters she had strong connections with from a time shortly after where they came from. It would've been an opportunity for Lorna to give direct shared insights into what they did together, how they shaped up to their adult versions, etc. And as not only a former "love interest" for Iceman but his first (real world publishing chronology), she could've played a meaningful role in further affirming Iceman's sexuality as gay.

    Possession by Malice could have gone in some interesting directions. We could've seen a more empathetic view of Lorna's plight than we got with Claremont. We could've seen inside Lorna's mind, and some thoughts lurking there that she tries to hide from the world. We could've seen how valuable Lorna is and how highly people see her by how Malice exploits those connections for evil ends (this is an idea slightly cribbed from the show Camelot, an episode where Morgan pretends to be Igraine and you see how much everyone confides in her and the help and joy she brings).

    Instead, she got one scene training teen Angel and Jimmy, and the Malice scene didn't really do much. Now, the Malice stuff, I can see maybe Bunn wanting that to be a full-fledged story arc but Marvel forcing him into doing a Havok arc and sneaking some Malice scenes into that. But I don't really see why he couldn't have done a scene with Jean or Iceman instead of teen Angel and Jimmy.

    This kind of all goes back to me seeing potential and Marvel not. There's a lot of amazing stories to tell that never get told because of assumptions about characters' worth, or nostalgia for outdated narrative structures, etc. Which then, again, goes back to why fandom is better in my eyes. Fandom's willing to do things Marvel won't.
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  9. #819

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    I was looking for pictures earlier and discovered someone made a video on how to create Polaris in Lego Marvel Super Heroes 2. Video made in January 2018.



    I also ran across a couple PoC (Polaris of Color) cosplays that I don't remember ever seeing before. Can't find their source, unfortunately.


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  10. #820
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    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post
    My biggest problem with handling of her on Blue was Lorna exploited to promote Havok, and the bait-and-switch of it where it LOOKED like Marvel might actually give her a shot (despite my doubts) only to pull that. Followed by how scenes in the roughly first half of Blue basically defined her only in terms of her father. Things like only calling her "Daughter of Magneto" when she showed up, or Lorna acting surprised when there was an attack on HQ so Magneto could mansplain to her something she should know after Genosha, or Lorna acting as if the Malice costume was just some weird dress-up and not a visual representation of a terrible period in her life.

    For what it's worth, Blue did improve treatment of her in the second half from the first half. She got to show more independence, more of her history, and there was the "instead of calling me daughter of Magneto, how about Lorna" scene that fans seem to like moreso than most of her use on Blue. It still had using her for Havok promo though, and the terrible (in depiction, not quality of art) cover for Blue #28.

    I stress Blue, not Bunn, here because I don't know how much of the bad stuff about the second half of Blue was Bunn and how much was Marvel dictating things that Bunn had to put up with. At the time, it came across to me as Bunn's decisions, or at the very least that he was letting it happen. Nowadays it sounds like he got screwed over according to what other fans have been saying.

    Lorna leading her own team was something she had on ANXF, and did for herself, not couched inside a storyline primarily about Havok. The Malice story was neutral; it didn't return to bad things, but it also didn't bring any new insights or empathy to Lorna and what she's been through. The costume was another case of her wearing a team uniform just because, unlike how ANXF had a reason behind the costume I could at least begrudgingly accept ("you're part of a company, this is company branding"; albeit the costume still could've included personal touches like Gambit and Pietro had).

    As long as I'm typing, one of the good things I can say about what I've seen with Hickman is that he's at least embracing mutants having unique costumes instead of trying to force team costumes on them.
    It seems back in All New X Factor..it was building to a confrontation with Magneto. That he knew they were blood from the get go..it wouldnt fight but she has her way of needling to say what she wants to say. Like I knew she wasnt gonna want Wanda dead for Decimation..that's not how Lorna would take it. She'll taunt Wanda for screwing up but it's not a life or death blame game scenario.

  11. #821
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichelleDiMera View Post
    It seems back in All New X Factor..it was building to a confrontation with Magneto. That he knew they were blood from the get go..it wouldnt fight but she has her way of needling to say what she wants to say. Like I knew she wasnt gonna want Wanda dead for Decimation..that's not how Lorna would take it. She'll taunt Wanda for screwing up but it's not a life or death blame game scenario.
    The Axis retcon made a mockery of all the previous years stories and it would have left Magneto (and Lorna if they allowed her to know) devastated eclipsing everything else. Well we know it did for Magneto, but the Heroes side of the franchise never acknowledged Lorna’s parentage so we can’t even say what Lorna knows in terms of Axis. Then they went about creating a BS stand in sister for Wanda to try to take the heat off the retcon.
    Last edited by jmc247; 10-08-2019 at 09:32 AM.

  12. #822

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    Quote Originally Posted by MichelleDiMera View Post
    It seems back in All New X Factor..it was building to a confrontation with Magneto. That he knew they were blood from the get go..it wouldnt fight but she has her way of needling to say what she wants to say. Like I knew she wasnt gonna want Wanda dead for Decimation..that's not how Lorna would take it. She'll taunt Wanda for screwing up but it's not a life or death blame game scenario.
    Peter David seemed to have an attitude that 1) Lorna should hate or look down on Magneto, and 2) Lorna shouldn't really interact with him. On the one hand, he actually explored the siblings' dynamic which is something literally nobody else at Marvel has done in the 616 in nearly two decades. Only in offshoots like Secret Wars or Exiles. On the other hand, the angle toward Lorna flat out hating her dad didn't really mesh with her development on Genosha, and at a sensitive time for her regaining Magneto as her father, gave Marvel an excuse to not let Lorna interact with him or take part in events he was involved in. Something she really did not need at the time while Avengers side (read: stuff Brevoort was involved in) went so far as to have a House of M portrait redrawn to remove her from the family.

    Bunn had Lorna and her father interacting, which at least got the ball rolling on writers figuring out how to write them. Then he improved in the second half. If not for the Havok stuff, I'd probably praise Blue for adjusting the writing of their dynamic much like I've praised Peter David for similar adjustments on treatment of Lorna with ANXF #7. But Lorna getting undermined to promote a character who's already benefited from misuse of her for decades doesn't really bring out the good feels from me. Especially when there's about a bajillion other things Lorna could and should be doing instead, and that should've happened decades ago.
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  13. #823
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    Well all of Magneto's kids have a changing view of him over the years, so Lorna hating him eventually wouldn't be a stretch...

  14. #824
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  15. #825
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    They are attacking what looks like a Sentinel factory from the preview tough we will see.

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