Polaris: Lorna Dane Appreciation 2019

[jmc247]

Lorna news.... with the 20th anniversary of The Twelve Sage for her happening now and her time on Genosha next year I wanted to know if Alan Davis who wrote both had a plan in place in regards to Lorna so I asked.

He responded that he never really had a plan for Polaris. He was asked by editorial to do the Twelve Saga and did and was told to deal with a few issues with Magneto and did and he created the outline for a Magneto/Genosha arc for them to use that he didn't think he could execute in the time he had. That outline probably became Dark Seduction.

Much of her Genosha storyline it turns out was ad hoc improvising with little long term planning. We know Austen's prospective as I asked a few years back. The only person who really hasn't been talked to about the whole deal to date is Grant Morrison. He hasn't said much beyond it then this in any interview I have seen. Though if anyone knows if he has talked about Ambient Magnetic Fields as an issue feel free to post.

The new Emma by Hickman could relate with Lorna in the political sense imo.

I think it could work in a team up mission that is a lot darker then the one she will be doing with Jean as in the sort of thing that needs to be done for Krakoa, but the council very much should not know about. High stakes political intrigue and the like.

That could actually really work. The key would be making it very different from the Jean/Emma team up.

Well I was thinking of them like Austein wrote them, old friends who used to hang out to have fun and go from there to a more serious relationship, similar with Lorna´s talk with Cyclops, just a little less serious and more playful. Also given Jean´s kind of close minded perception of Magneto it would be interesting to see contrast that with Lorna´s own pov and experiences.

I want their relationship when its tried again to actually work and fans to be intrigued by it. Every decade since the 60s their relationships is tried together in one or two comics. It never takes off. After over a half century of attempts I would like to see the next one succeed.

Austen and Morrison tried their best resurrecting it, but I would be lying if I didn't say they failed. Morrison produced easily more then a hundred times the fan interest in Jean and Emma interacting with a couple of their lines post Genosha then I have ever seen as a fan from Lorna and Jean.

Happy go lucky stuff with some Magneto issues thrown in we have seen. Jean knows Lorna is closer to Magneto then she would like and has known since 1968, but neither of them care exactly and didn't when Magneto out to rule the world. Its hard to see him working better as a conflict source when he is being ordered around by Scott.

I don't see a way to un-deep freeze their relationship in the current set up that Marvel would agree to. I did promote some ideas to Jordan White. Perhaps when relations among the factions on the island fray and schisms build there will be more opportunity though I doubt it.

[Lucyinthesky]

Jean and Lorna seem to be a the type of friends where everybody says they are friends but we don´t get to see them actually talkig with each other about what´s happening in their lives. Emma and Jean worked with Morrison mostly because of the contrast in their personalities and their past story Lorna and Jean have no story to talk about beyond them being friends sometimes even if we don´t know what they talk about.

So I would like to see something like an honest conversation between them like the one Jean used to have with Nighcrawler or Storm, just them haging out talking about their lifes and how far have come from that. I guess I just want them to hang about and see if they really are so similar as some writers believe.

[salarta]

I think if a writer/editor/etc says "they're too similar" about two characters as a reason not to use both, all they're doing is telegraphing that they don't care about one or both characters enough to put any thought into them. Someone with enough interest can and will find the differences, or else make them, or even use that to their writing benefit. There are stories of twins out there that manage to use twins in meaningful ways both as separate individuals and as a unit. You can't get more "they're the same" than that. If twins work in fiction, then very similar non-twins can also work.

[jmc247]

Jean and Lorna seem to be a the type of friends where everybody says they are friends but we don´t get to see them actually talkig with each other about what´s happening in their lives. Emma and Jean worked with Morrison mostly because of the contrast in their personalities and their past story Lorna and Jean have no story to talk about beyond them being friends sometimes even if we don´t know what they talk about.

So I would like to see something like an honest conversation between them like the one Jean used to have with Nighcrawler or Storm, just them haging out talking about their lifes and how far have come from that. I guess I just want them to hang about and see if they really are so similar as some writers believe.

I have talked to Jordan White about it and he didn't know they ever had a friendship. I have talked to quite a few others about the matter and it falls into the same dark hole. Morrison/Austen and now Hickman did not and are not writing Lorna as practically the same character as Jean, but the longstanding view of quite a few of the era who write comics is along those lines.

The question is if it sinks in they are not the same or not. A lot of fans and I just got done talking to one . The poster actually saw that yes it works if she is a representative of a different point of view not the voice of reason of what views are the most favorable for a minority group to have about the majority.

I will just say there has been a lot of Jean/Lorna written together compared to the other original five. The lack of an obvious conflict point or two the way Jean and Emma has is why I have never gotten anywhere with convincing a writer to make an effort with it since Austen's last attempt.

Lorna's relationships to Wanda, Max and Pietro work almost by default because they act as a proxy for people's real life relationships with their parents and siblings, but there isn't a mental conception at the moment among writers for how Lorna and Jean could work that they believe would get fans talking the way they have been talking about Jean and Emma. I do not think the writers dislike Lorna, but many do see her through an 80s or 90s lens as practically the same character as Jean.

Like I said Austen did try to spice up their relationship while keeping it on very friendly terms. That scene ironically led to WATXM and ANXF playing around with Gambit/Lorna. But, they didn't see that drama that could be milked between Lorna and Jean. I do think there is drama to be had, but in a way that akin to the way Xavier and Magneto get on. Its simply until they have a big throw down the way Xavier and Magneto have... you won't get to the point of fans and writers seeing them as old friends with a cool and complex relationship that is just itching to be developed.

I will be honest I don't think Lorna and Emma will go anywhere either and was just spit balling. There is great ideas to be had, but it really takes thinking outside the normal box with Lorna. I just hope Hickman can continue to see outside that box and can set her on a better path then she has been on.

[jmc247]

The issue that started to set the internet on fire for Jean and Emma.



Built in tension and conflict is key to a successful relationship in comics that isn't based on family dynamics.

That doesn't mean that even in family dynamics there shouldn't be conflict or at times huge conflict. But, lets say for Lorna and Magneto they are an immensely popular relationship with pretty clear dynamics at this point. If a writer wants to create a major conflict with them it has to be built up to. There is nothing cheaper then forced conflict by having one or the other mind controlled and the writer treating the other simply as if they had 'gone bad'. I felt Lorna and Magneto's forced conflict by X-Man cheapened both characters, but Lorna more then Magneto because he was just a slave. Lorna's has only two core relationships that Marvel respects at this point. Neither of those two should have huge conflicts unless really built up to. I feel the same about her forced conflict with Havok due to his inversion.

With her defunct relationships or nonexistent ones there is a lot more leeway and freedom to act in my view or at least their should be. Lorna's getting along with everybody at the end of the day doesn't serve Lorna. The last time she was a semi-popular comic character she was in on and off conflict with a large number of other characters including Xavier and Wolverine above. In the hands of a slightly more skilled and critically acclaimed writer if the same dynamics held there is little doubt in my mind she would be as popular as Emma Frost right now.

The post Austen regression for conflict dynamics between Lorna and the rest of the X-Men based on possession or generalized instability and not events or philosophy shot the character out at the knees.

[PwrdOn]

Jean and Lorna seem to be a the type of friends where everybody says they are friends but we don´t get to see them actually talkig with each other about what´s happening in their lives. Emma and Jean worked with Morrison mostly because of the contrast in their personalities and their past story Lorna and Jean have no story to talk about beyond them being friends sometimes even if we don´t know what they talk about.

So I would like to see something like an honest conversation between them like the one Jean used to have with Nighcrawler or Storm, just them haging out talking about their lifes and how far have come from that. I guess I just want them to hang about and see if they really are so similar as some writers believe.

Jean and Lorna became friends by default in the 60s just by virtue of being the only two girls on the team at that time, and while they haven't shared much panel time since then, there is enough there to make a compelling dynamic if anyone wanted to write them together. At least if you're talking about the good girl turned mutant princess version of Polaris we see in the earlier comics, the punk rock Emma Dumont version would probably hate Jean.

[jmc247]

Jean and Lorna became friends by default in the 60s just by virtue of being the only two girls on the team at that time, and while they haven't shared much panel time since then, there is enough there to make a compelling dynamic if anyone wanted to write them together. At least if you're talking about the good girl turned mutant princess version of Polaris we see in the earlier comics, the punk rock Emma Dumont version would probably hate Jean.

Emma Dumont's version wouldn't hate Jean though they would definitely run into ethical arguments which certainly could be mined for actual drama as the first season of the show did quite well.

I read a lot of Lorna and Jean in comics between the 60s and now. You can too... just read X-Men Unlimited #6, Uncanny X-Men 125, then the Alan Davis stuff in Ages of Poccy and the more modern Morison/Austen era stuff. Austen and Morrison did the best of them with New X-Men 132 being an iconic image in the ruins of Genosha along with Lorna and Jean's talk at the wedding.

But, if you are looking for a compelling dynamic its missing because you need something deeper then two friends who agree on everything fighting together or talking about the Summers brothers. This is my last comment on the matter, but its been a half century of fail for Lorna and Jean. They can be good friends, but they can't be good friends successfully and win a real fan base for their relationship without something deeper that attaches drama and spice to their interaction.

Controversy, disagreement, debate and in the end having fun working together to accomplish something. These are the kind of things that could inject the spark of life into their long dead relationship and interest fans. But, my actual suspicion is get used to several years of Emma/Jean stories, because Marvel believes their relationship has built in drama attached and gets fans talking and they aren't wrong.

Emma and Lorna is in the same boat of something that has great potential, but only if one realizes the potential Lorna brings to the table.

[Tycon]

heh heh “X-Liberalism”

*snorts in X-Men Red (2018) by Tom Taylor, Mahmud Asrar, Carmen Carnero*

[juan678]

Cbr Polaris Alpha Mutant list

https://www.cbr.com/x-men-mutant-pow...els-explained/

[Soulsword323]

I'm fine with Lorna being an alpha. I know some people don't like it, but I don't think its a knock against Polaris' abilities and the things she's done in the past. Xavier is an alpha, and not an omega, and I don't think that lessens his skill or natural power.

[salarta]

I'll be honest and straightforward, what "power level" Lorna's considered doesn't really matter. In fact, as I've said before, classification systems of this sort are garbage and always have been.

The only thing that makes it matter is general disrespect toward the character at Marvel.

When a character gets tons of use and respect, "classifying" them at a lower level than what past material implies should be the case isn't really an issue. Cause you know it's not happening out of spite. They're simply doing whatever they feel makes the most sense.

It's when you have a pattern of disrespect that a problem exists. That pattern means you can't trust - or really, respect - the "ranking" given. Especially in Lorna's case where past material has said she either could equal or surpass Magneto one day, or already has. As a result, the lower ranking exists as a part of that ongoing pattern that Marvel refuses to break - and in the process becomes symbolic of their disrespect.


All this to say it's not really the ranking that matters, it's what the ranking represents within the context of how Marvel treats Lorna in general. It's like you have two police officers, but the female officer never gets good assignments, never gets recognized for her service, never gets included in big department activities even when her expertise is deeply relevant, and then on top of it her status as an expert in her field - the same as the other officer's - is placed one rung down despite meeting all the same qualifications. At some point you have to ask how much bias factors into it.

[AbnormallyNormal]

Power levels are a thing where it's like you instinctively want your faves to be as high as possible

Then you realize being super OP makes your character very tough to write in almost any situation

There's a reason a lot of really compelling stories feature more "street level"-tier characters

That said Polaris is definitely extremely powerful, and it can vary based on story need/setting.

[jmc247]

Omega is part of a classification system I have never cared about and never will. Fanboy creative staff have used it since the 90s to promote their favorites over others and that is all it is good for. That said it along with Lorna on zero House of X, Powers of X and Dawn of X variant covers outside of the one intended to show every mutant ever does show how she rates at the moment. Its well below what it was early last decade for certain.

I will only say the underlying problem with the House of X set up and Lorna and relationships is Lorna is both divorced from the politics of the island, its security and lets face it philosophically the rest of the X-Men have moved so much toward her dream diminishing any real tension or points of divergence to be had with her outside of love interest BS and I have no interest in seeing Lorna sleep with Scott to create tension between the Summers brothers as happened in the Ultimate Universe.

This isn't a Genosha like set up for Lorna in so far as I don't know what she is doing there outside of spending time with dad and I have to disagree with Marvel.com there is little at this point for her to learn from him.

[AbnormallyNormal]

Omega is part of a classification system I have never cared about and never will. Fanboy creative staff have used it since the 90s to promote their favorites over others and that is all it is good for. That said it along with Lorna on zero House of X, Powers of X and Dawn of X variant covers outside of the one intended to show every mutant ever does show how she rates at the moment. Its well below what it was early last decade for certain.

I will only say the underlying problem with the House of X set up and Lorna and relationships is Lorna is both divorced from the politics of the island, its security and lets face it philosophically the rest of mutant kind has moved so much toward her dream and Magneto's dream there isn't much to actually have tension over outside of love interest bullshit and I have no interest in seeing Lorna sleep with Scott only to create tension between the Summers brothers.

This isn't a Genosha like set up for Lorna in so far as I don't know what she is doing there outside of spending time with dad and I have to disagree with Marvel.com there is little at this point for her to learn from him.

WE NEED AN ACOLYTES TYPE SQUAD....

Hardened enforcers of Krakoa, pure zealots who would fight to their deaths to preserve the new status quo

Originally they are there to ensure anti orochi/sentinel operations work out (they will do the work that the other teams are uncomfortable with), as time goes on and things change in continuity, they become more of Moira's secret police or paramilitary and engage against other less "believing" mutants

Yes yes I know this would "ruin" the characters involved, make them seem bad etc

But. it. would. be. great! And if the writing was good the journey involved could still get readers to sympathize

[jmc247]

WE NEED AN ACOLYTES TYPE SQUAD....

Hardened enforcers of Krakoa, pure zealots who would fight to their deaths to preserve the new status quo

Originally they are there to ensure anti orochi/sentinel operations work out (they will do the work that the other teams are uncomfortable with), as time goes on and things change in continuity, they become more of Moira's secret police or paramilitary and engage against other less "believing" mutants

Yes yes I know this would "ruin" the characters involved, make them seem bad etc

But. it. would. be. great! And if the writing was good the journey involved could still get readers to sympathize

X-Force which interviews have called Krakoa's CIA and Special Forces is as far as I can see the council going. They want to keep up appearances and convince the international public they are against using deadly force against humans while keeping their actions that do plausibly deniable.

I think it would honestly take a schism among Krakoa and Lorna deciding these guys need a dark knight or bad cop to take the pressure and attention off them for such a thing to work. I would be more then happy with that happening certainly. The current set up raised Lorna's profile, but she is stuck in every way I described the past two pages.

I have the feeling for now Hickman is happy with all the mutants mostly happy under Krakoa and certainly the sales are likely to keep that status quo for a fair bit. But, she also doesn't have a place on the island really and hanging out with dad who currently isn't leading anything doesn't open up the doors Genosha did for her. Magneto's role on Krakoa is more similar to Lorna and Pietro's role on Genosha. Right now Lorna doesn't have a role on Krakoa and if that continues for more then a couple months she will be back to being a love interest character I suspect.

Hickman wrote the best Lorna we have seen in quite some time to look at the positive. But, on the negative side she really has no role on the island that I can see. Lorna leading the Acolytes again in a way that isn't cut short or reduced to her being a pitch hitter for Magneto like last time would be great, but how that works is not so easy when all mutants are supposed to be ruled by the council.



Lorna has no clear position on Krakoa and no place off Krakoa either until there is some kind of schism.