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  1. #5671
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordAllMIghty View Post
    While there should be one. I don't think its ever been mentioned, even when the school was on top of it.



    No devil. You will not trick me with a beautiful cover.
    I mean Marauders is looking really good honestly lol it has me really curious about this post-Krakoa world and Storm's role in it.

  2. #5672
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
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    So much great Storm discussion today!! Thanks everyone for your thoughts here and the varying perspectives in the regard. That said...


    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    Alternate cover art by David Yardin from Mighty Thor #2 (July, 2011):

    Yardin's Storm is always fierce, powerful, and divine looking. I wish we could see more of his Storm on the interiors.

    Quote Originally Posted by terrancejameson View Post
    People would still cry about her being a Mary Sue. Just like everyone championed "most powerful marvel hero" Captain Marvel, but batted not one eye when Monica Rambeau was depowered, someone will always find a reason to complain that their white female (or male) fav isn't as powerful as Storm. Look no further than the omega level classification thread. Storm will naturally be too powerful for some to handle without taking offense to it.
    I seriously dont get this. I saw a little of what was happening in the omega thread and I saw some of the same stuff I always see. But what I dont get is the point about Storm being overrated powerwise. Even if you dont like her I'm not sure how anyone could argue against her being a powerhouse. I most certainly didnt get how the thread devolved into Rogue vs Storm. Or Magneto vs Storm or Jean vs. Storm. What I personally think is that FOR YEARS storm fans were called fanboys for calling Storm a goddess and an omega mutant. These reactions of clear trolling is just those posters not being able to eat crow and accepting they were wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by LordAllMIghty View Post
    At some point during a characters long career they will be considered a Mary or Gary Sue... it's inevitable
    agreed and it is unfortunate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    The term "Mary Sue" while it could be applicable to Storm, I guess (I don't see her as such) is irrelevant because she's very rarely written as one...at least not in the X-Men. An argument could be made for her depiction in recent Black Panther but that's tenuous.
    Besides, "Mary Sue" is the ineffectual sword and shield of discontented fan-boys who have no better argument and as such, should never be taken seriously.
    I agree wholeheartedly with your points made here.

    Quote Originally Posted by RachelGrey View Post
    I can't remember how long it lasted, but Storm was without her powers for a while and she still became the leader of the X-Men through sheer force of will. She was reduced to a child state and she was still a strong enough person to make people feel that she was a leader even in that state. Honestly, I noticed lately there is a push back from incel males who are intimidated by any strong female character in comics or movies. They get mad when any female character gets a lead position on any team these days.

    Storm is one of the top female characters in all of Marvel Comics and honestly people who call her a Mary Sue are just a bunch of misogynist incel jerks.
    I think a lot of why users get mad is the direct result of Matt Fraction writing Cyclops as the figurehead of mutantkind. All other mutants male and female alike were regulated to foot soldiers or in the case of Storm was rarely shown. Fast forward it to now, the idea that anyone can be leader in the presence of cyclops will seem forced because of these previous works. We will see how Hickman will manage the leadership on krakoa but with the last hox issue he was able to showcase several strong personalities shining. I'm confident he will be able to do what other writers were not able to xo before him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wind Rider View Post
    No not really. She’s written with quite a few flaws and vulnerability (physically and emotionally). She’s highly intelligent, possesses strong intuition and is proficient in many ways, but she doesn’t always make the best choices, misses opportunities to leverage her influence and agency (but definitely recognized in HoX #5) and struggles with confidence in her decisions at times.

    With respect to her power and skills Storm tends to be in the top echelon in most categories but isn’t usually the #1. Like while she’s a skilled tactician and strategist Cyclops tends to shine in those areas more than anyone (save for may be BP & Doom). She’s highly skilled in h2h and certain weapons but (from the X-roster) I’d put Psylocke, Wolverine, X-23, Gambit, and Cable as her superiors in close quarter combat (based on their accomplishments on panel). And while she’s tough she, like most “glass cannons”, is physically vulnerable. I like to see her defensive capabilities explored/touched on more.



    I thought issue #5 was pretty damn good. I liked multiple parts of the book (Emma’s unscrupulous but necessary manipulation, Magneto and Xavier’s interactions throughout) but High Priestess Storm was the star of this issue. She had such clear presence and resonated with everyone she engaged. Even Magneto & Xavier had to pause. I don’t get the whole “cult” vibe but to each their own lol. I took it as more about building mutant pride, a sense of duty and recognition of the sacrifices made for the cause. Almost like burying a soldier except the mutants can bring them back.

    I am skeptical as hell about the intentions of the villains. I don’t see how Apocalypse could speak for all of those very ambitious. I see that part of Krakoa being a major area of contention and wouldn’t be surprised if there was a covert security team put together to track and prepare for the inevitable betrayal that will be coming from them. It’s where practicality clashes with idealism, and I think its a mistake to blindly trust Apoc’s word on behalf of some very powerful, cunning and calculating villains. Personally, I’d like to see the X-Men rise to the occasion and surprise them with their ruthlessness when that time comes.

    Hickman did a great job crafting this story. So many characters got an opportunity to have their voice heard, and in such compelling and impactful ways. With such a big cast it really speaks to the skill level of his storytelling. Plus - he applied canon! The Storm, Jean & Cyclops interactions specifically ! It enriches & makes the story so more authentic when characters’ experiences, growth and personal relationships are recognized in meaningful ways. Plus - how awesomely powerful is Xavier. Backing up all of those mutant minds on a weekly basis?!

    This issue had me asking so many questions:

    1. What will the leadership structure of Krakoa look like and where will Storm fit into that? I don’t it just being Magneto & Xavier running the show.

    2. What roles do each of the omegas fulfill? We saw Hope but what about Storm? Beyond the obvious applications of her powers (though I wouldn’t mind seeing her connection to life and the biosphere touched as another direct relationship to Krakoa) she also obviously connects to the people of Krakoa, demonstrating the ability to inspire, embolden & influence.

    3. Besides Wolverine what do the X-Men who fought these villains (nearly dying in some instances) think of Xavier accepting them into Krakoa? Villains aren’t just powerhouses some can also influence and inspire change.

    There is more but I’ll stop here lol.
    you raise a lot of great questions but I think after tomorrow it will really get the discussions going on some of the points you've made. I've been most curious about ororos place as well. I would hope whatever role she plays she acts as the balance that doesnt allow for the mutants to turn or take moves towards more dark paths l.

    I also agree with your points on why she isnt a Mary sue. her losing her powers I think was just one testament as to why this wouldnt apply.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cville View Post
    Preview is just Shuri sparring and talking to "Mother" in Memeory Plane.
    I see it yesterday. I'm curious to see what direction this is going to take with him being back in the role of king.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlkGldBlu View Post
    Speaking of ....

    What are your thoughts on Storm Connection to Karoaka.

    We all know Storm has a link to the Earth & Environment .
    We seen her communi with her plants and Nature.
    Does that connection work with her and kakroka and vice versa can the island in a sense feel Storm especially when she is unleashing..
    I'm still under the impression krakoa is somehow siphoning the energy from the mutants, but more specifically the omegas.
    ALL HAIL THE HADARI YAO!!!! NOW AGAIN THE ONE TRUE AND ONLY GODDESS OF THE X-MEN AS CLAREMONT INTENDED!!!!!

  3. #5673
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post

    oh this cover is divine. I cannot recall the last time I've seen her revel in the elements. this is simply marvelous!!





    Quote Originally Posted by LordAllMIghty View Post
    While there should be one. I don't think its ever been mentioned, even when the school was on top of it.



    No devil. You will not trick me with a beautiful cover.

    lololol he trying it huh?? you remember when her enjoying rain in the nude was the norm? it's really nice to see this depicted again even if it was just a cover.
    ALL HAIL THE HADARI YAO!!!! NOW AGAIN THE ONE TRUE AND ONLY GODDESS OF THE X-MEN AS CLAREMONT INTENDED!!!!!

  4. #5674

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    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    oh this cover is divine. I cannot recall the last time I've seen her revel in the elements. this is simply marvelous!!

    lololol he trying it huh?? you remember when her enjoying rain in the nude was the norm? it's really nice to see this depicted again even if it was just a cover.
    I loved the expression of joy, that was the best part, Ororo was so happy just riding the wind of the storm.
    We are MUTANT..Krakoa, FOREVER!!! “Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité”

  5. #5675
    Mighty Member BlkGldBlu's Avatar
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    Oh come on give Maruaders a chance.
    It's what I'm d doing to all the new books.
    I know the whole Kitty leading thing is off putting.
    But iv have strong felling she'll be the wolverine of the team, so plenty of good scene, either verbal or splash page
    Last edited by BlkGldBlu; 09-24-2019 at 04:01 PM.

  6. #5676
    Mighty Member BlkGldBlu's Avatar
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    With all these Mutant popping up on the island.
    I ask has anyone seen a Morlock so far through the HoX PoXevent. If so call them out.

  7. #5677
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    Alternate cover art by David Yardin from Mighty Thor #2 (July, 2011):

    Many have tried and failed to replicate the greatness of this cover. Yardin shall remain unmatched in his devotion to the All-Goddess.
    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    This is gorgeous. I love the sense of bliss that she feels in the midst of what others would consider chaos.

  8. #5678
    Fantastic Member GuiltyPleasure's Avatar
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    I listened to an interesting YouTube vid on Mary Sues. Here is a bit of the transcript and a link: https://youtu.be/H2-GIY9RTqU

    A story with the Sue as its core is written as though the Sue is at the center of the universe.

    We're supposed to accept at face value that they're the most interesting, most important character in the story,

    because that's the starting point of their character.

    Not their backstory, not their motivations, just how invested we're supposed to be.

    And I think, fundamentally, that's what makes a Sue, a Sue.

    It's not something that exists on the level of a character trait, but on the story level;

    it's how the plot flows around them.

    The error is that the author starts in the premise that this character is by default the best character; not the most paragon, not the most powerful, but the best,

    the one everyone sees themselves in; or at the very least, the one everyone wants to pay attention to.

    And that's the problem. When you start from that premise, you forget to write the character in a way that draws us in. When you start with the idea that of course the character is the center of attention, we, the audience won't ever actually internalize why they should be the center of attention.

    It's writing with a blind spot. And that blind spot isn't going to be filled - and that pulls us out of the story. And this is the problem the transcends fanfic and starts to enter the world of original writing. Any time the writer is too busy squeeing over a character to establish why we should care about them, it ends up feeling a little too self-congratulatory.

    But the problem doesn't stop there - the Mary Sue distorts the world around them, changing the way characters act and reality works to put the focus on them.

    The Mary Sue is the center of attention at the expense of basically everything else. And this isn't always positive in-story.

    The Sympathetic-Sue archetype is the character who the universe conspires to make miserable, just like Gen. 1 Mary Sue, the character the universe conspires to make look good. The Mary Sue, in any of her forms, is the center of everything, and that's not really going to be a compelling read--no matter how interesting her character is. And it's usually not that interesting.

    It takes more than a cartoonishly traumatic backstory and a laundry list of positive traits to make a character compelling. Now, to be clear: there are stories with a character at their center where the character isn't a Mary Sue. The distinction is that a Mary Sue warps the way the world works around them. Glorifying the Sue is prioritized over maintaining the established characterizations or the straight-up rules of reality.

    A hero might be at the center of the story, but they won't be the only important character. Luke might be the one blowing up the Death Star and saving the day, but Hans is the one overcoming his personal demons and swooping in to save the kid's life at the last second, and Leia is the one sacrificing everything to get the plans to the rebellion in the first place. And we can't forget that the main drama in the story is caused by the presence of an equally fascinating villain to oppose our main trio. And that's the main false-positive here. There's a difference between being the hero of a story, and being the center of the universe.

    A Mary Sue's not a character, they're an artifact of an overly centralized story. And as a result, a Mary Sue will basically never have a good supporting cast.

    You can't have compelling characters and side stories in a world that's all about Mary Sue. And that's what Mary Sue is--not just the center of the universe, but the only real thing in the universe. Everything has to lead back to the Sue. In any situation where that's not true, you don't have a Mary Sue!

    You might have an overpowered character or a character you don't like, but the Sue-ness is built on the fact that the story is sacrificed to make the character look good. A character in a good, well-rounded story where there's focus put on other characters and character interactions that don't center on them can't be a Mary Sue.

  9. #5679
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuiltyPleasure View Post
    I listened to an interesting YouTube vid on Mary Sues. Here is a bit of the transcript and a link: https://youtu.be/H2-GIY9RTqU

    A story with the Sue as its core is written as though the Sue is at the center of the universe.

    We're supposed to accept at face value that they're the most interesting, most important character in the story,

    because that's the starting point of their character.

    Not their backstory, not their motivations, just how invested we're supposed to be.

    And I think, fundamentally, that's what makes a Sue, a Sue.

    It's not something that exists on the level of a character trait, but on the story level;

    it's how the plot flows around them.

    The error is that the author starts in the premise that this character is by default the best character; not the most paragon, not the most powerful, but the best,

    the one everyone sees themselves in; or at the very least, the one everyone wants to pay attention to.

    And that's the problem. When you start from that premise, you forget to write the character in a way that draws us in. When you start with the idea that of course the character is the center of attention, we, the audience won't ever actually internalize why they should be the center of attention.

    It's writing with a blind spot. And that blind spot isn't going to be filled - and that pulls us out of the story. And this is the problem the transcends fanfic and starts to enter the world of original writing. Any time the writer is too busy squeeing over a character to establish why we should care about them, it ends up feeling a little too self-congratulatory.

    But the problem doesn't stop there - the Mary Sue distorts the world around them, changing the way characters act and reality works to put the focus on them.

    The Mary Sue is the center of attention at the expense of basically everything else. And this isn't always positive in-story.

    The Sympathetic-Sue archetype is the character who the universe conspires to make miserable, just like Gen. 1 Mary Sue, the character the universe conspires to make look good. The Mary Sue, in any of her forms, is the center of everything, and that's not really going to be a compelling read--no matter how interesting her character is. And it's usually not that interesting.

    It takes more than a cartoonishly traumatic backstory and a laundry list of positive traits to make a character compelling. Now, to be clear: there are stories with a character at their center where the character isn't a Mary Sue. The distinction is that a Mary Sue warps the way the world works around them. Glorifying the Sue is prioritized over maintaining the established characterizations or the straight-up rules of reality.

    A hero might be at the center of the story, but they won't be the only important character. Luke might be the one blowing up the Death Star and saving the day, but Hans is the one overcoming his personal demons and swooping in to save the kid's life at the last second, and Leia is the one sacrificing everything to get the plans to the rebellion in the first place. And we can't forget that the main drama in the story is caused by the presence of an equally fascinating villain to oppose our main trio. And that's the main false-positive here. There's a difference between being the hero of a story, and being the center of the universe.

    A Mary Sue's not a character, they're an artifact of an overly centralized story. And as a result, a Mary Sue will basically never have a good supporting cast.

    You can't have compelling characters and side stories in a world that's all about Mary Sue. And that's what Mary Sue is--not just the center of the universe, but the only real thing in the universe. Everything has to lead back to the Sue. In any situation where that's not true, you don't have a Mary Sue!

    You might have an overpowered character or a character you don't like, but the Sue-ness is built on the fact that the story is sacrificed to make the character look good. A character in a good, well-rounded story where there's focus put on other characters and character interactions that don't center on them can't be a Mary Sue.
    That was Kitty in X-Men Gold...

  10. #5680
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuiltyPleasure View Post
    I listened to an interesting YouTube vid on Mary Sues. Here is a bit of the transcript and a link: https://youtu.be/H2-GIY9RTqU

    A story with the Sue as its core is written as though the Sue is at the center of the universe.

    We're supposed to accept at face value that they're the most interesting, most important character in the story,

    because that's the starting point of their character.

    Not their backstory, not their motivations, just how invested we're supposed to be.

    And I think, fundamentally, that's what makes a Sue, a Sue.

    It's not something that exists on the level of a character trait, but on the story level;

    it's how the plot flows around them.

    The error is that the author starts in the premise that this character is by default the best character; not the most paragon, not the most powerful, but the best,

    the one everyone sees themselves in; or at the very least, the one everyone wants to pay attention to.

    And that's the problem. When you start from that premise, you forget to write the character in a way that draws us in. When you start with the idea that of course the character is the center of attention, we, the audience won't ever actually internalize why they should be the center of attention.

    It's writing with a blind spot. And that blind spot isn't going to be filled - and that pulls us out of the story. And this is the problem the transcends fanfic and starts to enter the world of original writing. Any time the writer is too busy squeeing over a character to establish why we should care about them, it ends up feeling a little too self-congratulatory.

    But the problem doesn't stop there - the Mary Sue distorts the world around them, changing the way characters act and reality works to put the focus on them.

    The Mary Sue is the center of attention at the expense of basically everything else. And this isn't always positive in-story.

    The Sympathetic-Sue archetype is the character who the universe conspires to make miserable, just like Gen. 1 Mary Sue, the character the universe conspires to make look good. The Mary Sue, in any of her forms, is the center of everything, and that's not really going to be a compelling read--no matter how interesting her character is. And it's usually not that interesting.

    It takes more than a cartoonishly traumatic backstory and a laundry list of positive traits to make a character compelling. Now, to be clear: there are stories with a character at their center where the character isn't a Mary Sue. The distinction is that a Mary Sue warps the way the world works around them. Glorifying the Sue is prioritized over maintaining the established characterizations or the straight-up rules of reality.

    A hero might be at the center of the story, but they won't be the only important character. Luke might be the one blowing up the Death Star and saving the day, but Hans is the one overcoming his personal demons and swooping in to save the kid's life at the last second, and Leia is the one sacrificing everything to get the plans to the rebellion in the first place. And we can't forget that the main drama in the story is caused by the presence of an equally fascinating villain to oppose our main trio. And that's the main false-positive here. There's a difference between being the hero of a story, and being the center of the universe.

    A Mary Sue's not a character, they're an artifact of an overly centralized story. And as a result, a Mary Sue will basically never have a good supporting cast.

    You can't have compelling characters and side stories in a world that's all about Mary Sue. And that's what Mary Sue is--not just the center of the universe, but the only real thing in the universe. Everything has to lead back to the Sue. In any situation where that's not true, you don't have a Mary Sue!

    You might have an overpowered character or a character you don't like, but the Sue-ness is built on the fact that the story is sacrificed to make the character look good. A character in a good, well-rounded story where there's focus put on other characters and character interactions that don't center on them can't be a Mary Sue.

    thank you for this explanation. it was very detailed and informative. I cant recall a time storm was written like this any book recently including black panther.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleo_Rage View Post
    That was Kitty in X-Men Gold...
    Omg why did i burst out with laughter reading that lol.
    ALL HAIL THE HADARI YAO!!!! NOW AGAIN THE ONE TRUE AND ONLY GODDESS OF THE X-MEN AS CLAREMONT INTENDED!!!!!

  11. #5681
    Fantastic Member GuiltyPleasure's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=butterflykyss;4587938]thank you for this explanation. it was very detailed and informative. I cant recall a time storm was written like this any book recently including black panther.

    I agree. Storm doesn't fit this characterization. The YouTuber did a nice job of giving the 1974 origin of the Mary Sue character created for a Star trek fanfic. That helped to clarify how the Mary Sue trope began.

  12. #5682
    Astonishing Member CoCoBandz's Avatar
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    What happened to Storm Phoenix? Why'd they get banned?

  13. #5683
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuiltyPleasure View Post
    I agree. Storm doesn't fit this characterization. The YouTuber did a nice job of giving the 1974 origin of the Mary Sue character created for a Star trek fanfic. That helped to clarify how the Mary Sue trope began.
    yea I agree. that said, what characters do you think would fall into that definition?

    oan: I'm excited for black panther tomorrow. I'm hoping we get some action pages.
    Last edited by butterflykyss; 09-24-2019 at 08:17 PM.
    ALL HAIL THE HADARI YAO!!!! NOW AGAIN THE ONE TRUE AND ONLY GODDESS OF THE X-MEN AS CLAREMONT INTENDED!!!!!

  14. #5684
    Spectacular Member stormstan's Avatar
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    Y’all when marauders come out?

  15. #5685
    Judgement Awaits LordAllMIghty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoCoBandz View Post
    What happened to Storm Phoenix? Why'd they get banned?
    Not sure. Hopefully, its temporally.

    Quote Originally Posted by stormstan View Post
    Y’all when marauders come out?
    End of next month. If i remember correctly.
    I've seen your end and it starts with you challenging me.

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