Ororo Munroe: Storm Appreciation 2019

[GuiltyPleasure]

Claremont had Ororo visit Harlem in Uncanny 122 I believe. Her old apartment building was run down and filled with children addicted to drugs. She was cut by one of them. Misty Knight and Luke Cage came to help her. Black Panther and the Crew further elaborated, by saying Ororo lived in Harlem during the Outback era(which makes no sense canonically, but most retcons don't), with Gateway porting her back and forth in-between missions. Coates is referring to these visits.

This is exactly right. Coates did revisit Ororo's connection to Harlem in BP and the Crew. He actually raised a good point with Ororo and a point of contention between African Americans (in general) and immigrants (in general) to the US who think they know about the impact of enslavement, Jim Crow, etc on African Americans but truly don't. This often results in misunderstandings between the groups, as well as a blaming the victim mentality of some immigrants. No matter which side of the argument one falls, Coates raised a legitimate perspective for Ororo to weigh in on.

[butterflykyss]

Just because people haven't commented on it doesn't mean they see it as good.

Don McGregor is considered one of the greatest BP writers. I can't stand his T'Challa.

BP fans ripped Jonathan Maberry to shreds over Doom War.

Coates isn't the only one to feel our wrath.

fair enough. but you do acknowledge that even if he wrote a tchalla the way you would want him to you still wouldnt like it correct?

See heres where what your saying becomes shade throwing. You claim BP fans would still complain even if Coates wrote T'Challa perfectly because we don't like him. This is wholeheartedly false and has been disproven multiple times in The BP thread as posters (myself included) have given praise when Coates wrote a issue that in itself was average to decent. In fact there have been several issues that people have him credit where credit was due.

IF Coates started writing T'Challa in Character we would change our opinion on him. The problem is, issues are only decent in a vacuum, and even then they have shade throwing I them or aren't fully treating T'Challa as he should. And i said this in the BP thread.

In the entirety of Coates writing BP, 40+ issues in, T'Challa has NEVER defeated a villain by himself. Never. He always has help. You know the last time he tried? Issue two. He goes alone to capture Zenzi and lose. After that, Everytime he faces a villain it's with help. Coates took the phrase "No one Man (should have that much power)" and literally took it to mean, for T'Challa, he cannot and will not ever do anything of his own power to handle a situation alone. He literally doesn't have the power to overcome any villain to date without needing someone else there to help.

And in 3 different occasions he didn't even defeated the main villain. Adversary in S2, and twice now in S3 with N'Jadaka, first time is nu-Achebe a character no gives a isht about, second time is Okoye (who also I said issue appears to be the main character in the action shot before the fight while T'Challa takes the role of support

what was not on character about how tchalla this issue? and njadaka isnt defeated he is still a threat to wakanda just as njadaka has built a force of allies so does tchalla need his.

Hey friend,

It's been awhile but I didn't go anywhere.

Being the sole individual who automatically cancelled Coates from day one before he penned his first issue of BP, I wear the "Usual Suspect" tag with confidence.

I read Coates a$$ backwards views on the BP mythos in interviews before he started writing the book and new from jump, that he had ZERO good intentions for T'Challa, Wakanda or the aforementioned mythos from jump.

I was the sole poster in the BP Appreciation thread who refused to partake of the Coates Koolaid because I foresaw what a writer with his particularly biased mindset would inflict 9n the mythos and now, three years later, most of my fellow posters in the BP thread have now understood why I took the stance I did.

Coates has done good by Storm at the BP mythos expense in a manner that no X-enthusiast would countenance or accept if the shoe were on the other foot and this my friend, is why there will always be a divide between a fanbase that should be united by a mutually shared appreciation of the MU but remains at odds because some wilfully choose to diminish the justified concerns of others.

This will probably be my last post on this subject for the simple fact that this is the Storm Appreciation thread and as such, I have no wish nor desire to take up space discussing the BP mythos herein but suffice it to say, that I sincerely hope Coates wilful derailment of the BP mythos to prop up and elevate Storm is appreciated and acknowledged by the X-office with a commensurate and quantifiable raising of Ororo's profile within her own family of books.

I agree the two fanbases should be United. I'm going to support both where I can. I'm enjoying agents of walks da even though there are not many wakandans. without these two characters being separated and hmgoomg to their respective franchises how do you think these two can be written where both fanbases are both pleased?

Poor Tchalla fans. BP #18 was just trash. A whole issue devoted to showing once again what a blind a$$ man Tchalla is. One who is so primally self indulgent he missed all the signs in front of him. His talk with mother Ororo just felt so tedious and pointless. we get it Coates Tchalla is the most selfish blind privliedged black man in the history of the MU and now he knows it too. This as garbage imo. And Mama Ororo chastising the man for being born with a vibranium spoon in his mouth so of course he couldn't possibly understand the REAL world. *barf*

Oh and i was right. This whole Storm/Tchalla conversation i didn't hear Nakia mentioned once so once again. We don't know what Tchalla told her about the situation she just inferred and basically dressed Nakia down in the nicest way same way Mother Ororo did here with Tchalla. I wonder if they sell Lightning shaped halos in Wakanda so Hardari Mother can complete her look.

ororo clearly knows about nakia at this point. ororo even tells him not to flatter himself about that little situation. and ororo has always been preachy and"motherly" as you called it. it's one of her annoying characteristics:


Attachment 89850

Coates should just write a Storm solo & leave T'Challa alone, honestly.

I like his panther. I'm sure others do as well.

No good ororo stuff this week unless you liked tchalla's second mother over in bp chastising him. I was just waiting for Coates to have her be all "like me with a goddess I couldn't believe it because I lived too much real life."

Also when did ororo take these trips to Harlem. She was 6 months when they left and her memory so good she remembered it but there were no trips to Harlem.

she went during the outback era per BP and the Crew.

[Ezyo1000]

fair enough. but you do acknowledge that even if he wrote a tchalla the way you would want him to you still wouldnt like it correct?



what was not on character about how tchalla this issue? and njadaka isnt defeated he is still a threat to wakanda just as njadaka has built a force of allies so does tchalla need his.

The better question is what was actually IN Character for T'Challa this issue? He didn't see blatant slavery In His face? Dude liberated an entire planet in Hudlin era and called out the inhumans for still using slavery when he and storm visited them in world tour.

He wanted to believe in a dream of a peaceful Wakanda Galaxy and instead of seeing the truth? T'Challa sees stuff for what it is, he even called out the wrong stuff happening in Wakanda and addressed it accordingly in Priest era, plus again see Hudlin era.

He grew up privileged and that's why he didn't see it? dude lost his mother when he was a baby, and his father was killed infront of him and he was forced to grow up and be prepped to be king, he did a walkabout and learned how the World works, dude was not sitting in a comfy chair all day sipping mimosa's, on top of that people came to him and said he would be betrayed. In continuity T'Challa would of investigated that isht BEFORE Achebe even came to him, when he he feeling uneasy in the first place.

He was obsessed with his pursuit of vibranium and the vain goal of his mother's Shadow? Dude is a king, peace spanning 5 galaxies would be suspicious as hell, he knows that everything isn't perfect, Hudlins Wakanda is the closest to a Utopia and there is still isht going on with it, I call BS on this as well and highly out of Character, also when this story started there was no mention of him obsessed with vibranium, he sent the explorers out to charter space, as Wakandas first alpha flight, so Coates contradicts himself.

We are talking about one of the smartest men alive, two steps ahead always prepared, pragmatic Character. And for him to get his memory wiped successfully, Coates literally cut his IQ and by 60%. And the panels showing the betrayal? Could it be anymore obvious then that? Coates literally had to make T'Challa stupid to lose his memory.

T'Challas character traits would of screamed at him to be suspicious of you know, a 5 galaxies spanning Wakandan empire and he is alone and knows nobody in this unfamiliar place. Yet Coates has him blindly walk into a super obvious trap? Come on now this is nothing of how T'Challa would be captured, how that went down that's how you expect him to willingly allow himself to be captured so he can further his goals.

Coates should of just not even explained how he lost his memory because his explanation is poorly thought out and required high level of PIS and uncharacteristic behavior from T'Challa

[terrancejameson]

Well, that's what happens when you don't do enough research and just make up stuff as you go.

I know this wasn’t meant to be funny, but I chuckled. Can we discuss the issues Coates has raised with MU T’Challa and Wakanda that you feel are completely made up? I’m not correcting you. I just don’t see what exactly was pulled outta thin air or made up. I like drawing parallels and I see them by the bucketload.

[juan678]

https://www.cbr.com/80s-christmas-ad...alendar-day-1/

[GuiltyPleasure]

I know this wasn’t meant to be funny, but I chuckled. Can we discuss the issues Coates has raised with MU T’Challa and Wakanda that you feel are completely made up? I’m not correcting you. I just don’t see what exactly was pulled outta thin air or made up. I like drawing parallels and I see them by the bucketload.

Marvel2100 was responding to jwatson who made arguments about about BP etc but hadn't read the issues in question, so the posts were totally incorrect as far as what actually happened in the comics. I also found his response funny because it was on point and needed to be said.

[jwatson]

Marvel2100 was responding to jwatson who made arguments about about BP etc but hadn't read the issues in question, so the posts were totally incorrect as far as what actually happened in the comics. I also found his response funny because it was on point and needed to be said.

No I'm pretty sure he was talking about Coates. For instance storm saw the what slavery had done to black people in America via her 2 or 3 trips to Harlem but someone like tchalla who has been to America many times and not just Harlem and if I recall correctly was even educated there was too blind and privilege d to see it but ororo could. Sounds about fake news to me. And from my summary it was clear I actually read the issue so your assumption about my post would also fall into that category as I knew exactly what I was talking about.

[MindofShadow]

if I recall correctly was even educated there

Yes. He studied in America and Europe.

[Marvell2100]

No I'm pretty sure he was talking about Coates. For instance storm saw the what slavery had done to black people in America via her 2 or 3 trips to Harlem but someone like tchalla who has been to America many times and not just Harlem and if I recall correctly was even educated there was too blind and privilege d to see it but ororo could. Sounds about fake news to me. And from my summary it was clear I actually read the issue so your assumption about my post would also fall into that category as I knew exactly what I was talking about.

Thank you very much sir.

Also, does anyone remember that T'Challa fought the Klan?

[Marvell2100]

I know this wasn’t meant to be funny, but I chuckled. Can we discuss the issues Coates has raised with MU T’Challa and Wakanda that you feel are completely made up? I’m not correcting you. I just don’t see what exactly was pulled outta thin air or made up. I like drawing parallels and I see them by the bucketload.

The entire basis on the founding of Wakanda.

No One Man.

Saying that no Wakandan King could resist abusing the Dora Milaje. Never happened.

T'Challa not wanting to be king.

T'Challa joining the Avengers for scientific exploration instead of the original reason. He wanted to spy on them.

What's his name from BP and the Crew. The one everyone was trying to find out about. Can't recall his name right now. Ezra Miller or something.

Wakanda being misogynistic.

But lets do this in the BP thread since it pertains more to him. I don't want to derail the Storm thread.

[terrancejameson]

The better question is what was actually IN Character for T'Challa this issue? He didn't see blatant slavery In His face? Dude liberated an entire planet in Hudlin era and called out the inhumans for still using slavery when he and storm visited them in world tour.

He wanted to believe in a dream of a peaceful Wakanda Galaxy and instead of seeing the truth? T'Challa sees stuff for what it is, he even called out the wrong stuff happening in Wakanda and addressed it accordingly in Priest era, plus again see Hudlin era.

He grew up privileged and that's why he didn't see it? dude lost his mother when he was a baby, and his father was killed infront of him and he was forced to grow up and be prepped to be king, he did a walkabout and learned how the World works, dude was not sitting in a comfy chair all day sipping mimosa's, on top of that people came to him and said he would be betrayed. In continuity T'Challa would of investigated that isht BEFORE Achebe even came to him, when he he feeling uneasy in the first place.

He was obsessed with his pursuit of vibranium and the vain goal of his mother's Shadow? Dude is a king, peace spanning 5 galaxies would be suspicious as hell, he knows that everything isn't perfect, Hudlins Wakanda is the closest to a Utopia and there is still isht going on with it, I call BS on this as well and highly out of Character, also when this story started there was no mention of him obsessed with vibranium, he sent the explorers out to charter space, as Wakandas first alpha flight, so Coates contradicts himself.

We are talking about one of the smartest men alive, two steps ahead always prepared, pragmatic Character. And for him to get his memory wiped successfully, Coates literally cut his IQ and by 60%. And the panels showing the betrayal? Could it be anymore obvious then that? Coates literally had to make T'Challa stupid to lose his memory.

T'Challas character traits would of screamed at him to be suspicious of you know, a 5 galaxies spanning Wakandan empire and he is alone and knows nobody in this unfamiliar place. Yet Coates has him blindly walk into a super obvious trap? Come on now this is nothing of how T'Challa would be captured, how that went down that's how you expect him to willingly allow himself to be captured so he can further his goals.

Coates should of just not even explained how he lost his memory because his explanation is poorly thought out and required high level of PIS and uncharacteristic behavior from T'Challa

My friend, Ezyo1000, I enjoy your ideas very much. I can’t argue against your points because they make too much sense. I can’t help noticing the clear connections from Coates’ run on Black Panther to MCU T’Challa and Wakanda. I’m going to dive in further, but I’ll preface this by saying that I don’t expect to change your mind nor are you required to believe or see things as I do. MU Shuri is here to stay. She’s not going anywhere. Okoye is right alongside T’Challa in Agents of Wakanda and now we have both Nakia and M’Baku from repackaged to gel with their MCU counterparts. I’m admittedly biased, but I’m willing to wager that Coates is crafting his stories to reflect MCU T’Challa.

I don’t think it’s a slight against T’Challa for letting his ambition cloud his vision in regards to a GALACTIC WAKANDAN EMPIRE. An end to white supremacy does not mean peace for all black people imo. There are bound to be disagreements and conflict. I don’t comment on the rape camps Coates planted in Wakanda. I was utterly turned off and I remain so to this day. It didn’t need to happen in Wakanda to make his point, but then I notice a parallel to the opening of MCU Black Panther. T’Challa and Okoye both drop in on Nakia as she masquerades as a captive woman. We know they’re not IN Wakanda, but we absolutely can assume that they’re to be sold off. It makes me wonder...

As far as we know MCU T’Challa is the equivalent of Tony Stark and Steve Rodgers combined. He’s never wanted for anything as the son of the king and heir to the throne. I’m not saying that he hasn’t studied and trained abroad. I’m just saying we haven’t seen it. We saw MCU Killmonger call him privileged as well. He wasn’t wrong. We saw MCU Nakia show T’Challa a better way for Wakanda to embrace the world. If it wasn’t for her Killmonger would have won the moral high ground along with his father. I love the latest issue because it doesn’t question his intelligence imo.

T’Challa ASSUMES Ororo had the wherewithal to understand and/or embrace the African-American experience. She didn’t initially. She tells him that she had to learn more fore herself. Why wouldn’t she? (She’s just like him. They’re two halves of the same whole. She’s the princess of an ancient kingdom as well.) IMO this conversation is an extension of their previous one under Priest. I love the irony of T’Challa’s mention of Krakoa. His fight against the empire and his reluctance to agree to Krakoan terms makes even more sense. Storm is the one that appears partially blind. She called him out for becoming another Magneto. This story saw those words come to fruition in a way. He sees Krakoa going the same way and Storm doesn’t. I do believe she understands the importance of mutants having their own. What I love is that this Storm and T’Challa both recognize the importance of what it means to be both black and mutant. I don’t see how either character is under PIS to understand this.

[terrancejameson]

Marvel2100 was responding to jwatson who made arguments about about BP etc but hadn't read the issues in question, so the posts were totally incorrect as far as what actually happened in the comics. I also found his response funny because it was on point and needed to be said.

Lolol that’s not what was going on but this sure entertained me. Issa mess. My strong pushback against this domineering Ororo is where was this same energy when Priest did it? Priest had her voicing her opinions about his character and what it said to her. (Mind you, there are also countless references to Strum and Drang throughout S2 of Black Panther.) Hudlin had Storm check him away from Namor. She was forceful and without compromise. Why isn’t she emasculating him there? McDuffie he her do it too? How about Liss? I don’t see how this Ororo is different form any of other incarnations in previous volumes of Black Panther? I don’t see what’s so wrong with seeking the love and council of close and personal friend.

[jwatson]

T’Challa ASSUMES Ororo had the wherewithal to understand and/or embrace the African-American experience. She didn’t initially. She tells him that she had to learn more fore herself. Why wouldn’t she? (She’s just like him. They’re two halves of the same whole. She’s the princess of an ancient kingdom as well.) IMO this conversation is an extension of their previous one under Priest. I love the irony of T’Challa’s mention of Krakoa. His fight against the empire and his reluctance to agree to Krakoan terms makes even more sense. Storm is the one that appears partially blind. She called him out for becoming another Magneto. This story saw those words come to fruition in a way. He sees Krakoa going the same way and Storm doesn’t. I do believe she understands the importance of mutants having their own. What I love is that this Storm and T’Challa both recognize the importance of what it means to be both black and mutant. I don’t see how either character is under PIS to understand this.

This is better than the actual comic book. I'm glad Coates got ya'll to do all the heavy lifting and spin for him because this isn't what i read but it definitely would have been far better and made more sense.

I'm just stuck on the simple reasoning.

Tchalla is one of the smartest men in the world and has spent far more time in America and observing America and learning in America as well as other racially charged places in the world that Ororo has only ever flown over but somehow she fundamentally understands racism and slavery to a deeper degree than he ever could because he was coming from a place of unparalleled privileged. Personally i felt like "Really b($(? Your going to ask him if he wants a mayonaise sandwich next? God forbid this black man actually experienced racism on his travels. OR you know read about things in African American Studies, something. Surely he can string two and two together."

When he talked about not having an answer. I was stuck on "After ALL that, After ALL these issues after ALL these trials this MFer don't even got an answer? This what we doing in 2019 Coates?"

And when he was all i don't know what Wakanda stands for but it don't stand for this. My mind was all "The mfing KING of Wakanda doesn't know WTF his own country stands for. Three Volumes exploring the history of Wakanda, it's past, it's gods, adding new gods and he still hasn't caught a clue. Coates must really hate this #)#)#)"

So our reading experiences were obviously completely different.

[terrancejameson]

The entire basis on the founding of Wakanda.

No One Man.

Saying that no Wakandan King could resist abusing the Dora Milaje. Never happened.

T'Challa not wanting to be king.

T'Challa joining the Avengers for scientific exploration instead of the original reason. He wanted to spy on them.

What's his name from BP and the Crew. The one everyone was trying to find out about. Can't recall his name right now. Ezra Miller or something.

Wakanda being misogynistic.

But lets do this in the BP thread since it pertains more to him. I don't want to derail the Storm thread.

In the Story called STURM UND DRUNG a character named LORD GHUAR is the leader of a species called DEVIANT LEMURIANS. He tells T’Challa that Deviant Lemurians have existed hundreds of generations before T’Challa’s could walk upright. Sounds like he’s going off of that tidbit.

I don’t like the No One Man either. He should have gone with it takes a village. That’s what I loved about Ryan Coogler and his approach.

I don’t like the idea of Wakandan kings abusing any Dora Milaje. At the same time I don’t think all Wakandans are good people, but I do think they should be treated as human.

I think it’s possible for T’Challa to dislike aspects of being a king. What if he likes being a beacon of hope to his people, but he dislikes he scrutiny he gets for his choice in potential partner? Lol that happens here in this very thread!

Scientific Exploration doesn’t exactly rule out the potential for spying. I’m sure they don’t know about all the tests he ran under their noses.

Ezra was a weird addition. Why didn’t he use her grandparents? I guess Coates didn’t wanna have T’Challa completely shame and embarrass Ororo by acknowledging that he keeps closer ties to them than she does.

I fully disagree with a misogynistic idea of Wakanda. They pray to Bast for crying out loud. That makes no sense to me.

It isn’t derailing. I’ve tied it all back to Storm so it’s all good.

[terrancejameson]

This is better than the actual comic book. I'm glad Coates got ya'll to do all the heavy lifting and spin for him because this isn't what i read but it definitely would have been far better and made more sense.

I'm just stuck on the simple reasoning.

Tchalla is one of the smartest men in the world and has spent far more time in America and observing America and learning in America as well as other racially charged places in the world that Ororo has only ever flown over but somehow she fundamentally understands racism and slavery to a deeper degree than he ever could because he was coming from a place of unparalleled privileged. Personally i felt like "Really b($(? Your going to ask him if he wants a mayonaise sandwich next? God forbid this black man actually experienced racism on his travels. OR you know read about things in African American Studies, something. Surely he can string two and two together."

When he talked about not having an answer. I was stuck on "After ALL that, After ALL these issues after ALL these trials this MFer don't even got an answer? This what we doing in 2019 Coates?"

And when he was all i don't know what Wakanda stands for but it don't stand for this. My mind was all "The mfing KING of Wakanda doesn't know WTF his own country stands for. Three Volumes exploring the history of Wakanda, it's past, it's gods, adding new gods and he still hasn't caught a clue. Coates must really hate this #)#)#)"

So our reading experiences were obviously completely different.

Imo Jwatson T’Challa is discussing his blind ambition towards the stars. He succeeded with sending his people into space. They took Wakandan ideals into space but not it’s heart. T’Challa and Ororo are both discussing areas where they were blind to plight of other black people. T’Challa just came back from his (on top of losing his complete memory) and Ororo is reminding him of her reckoning with herself over her place in HER community. Isn’t that where you want her to shine most, my friend? In a community of her mutant peers?

To be clear, T’Challa has all the answers at the close of S2. Ororo says as much and I have the issue to prove it. She tells us again that he is the most intelligent and strategic man that she’s ever known. Nakia is even impressed by his genius. It’s part of his personality.

Are you saying that Ororo hasn’t known what it’s like being the outsider since she was a little girl? She had to prove herself against children who hated her simply for who and what she was since she first started stealing. Dickie had some kids call her “American” as an insult, but she had no idea what that meant for her life. We know she didn’t learn it when she first went to her parents old home. We don’t know when she learned, but she did. We don’t know if she learned it before Kitty started screaming ******, but eventually she did. T’Challa knows she knows. I’m hoping he assumed she picked up on it pretty quickly, and isn’t as good as feigning ignorance as some X-writers would leave us to believe.