Page 419 of 662 FirstFirst ... 319369409415416417418419420421422423429469519 ... LastLast
Results 6,271 to 6,285 of 9921
  1. #6271
    Storm Goddess Wind Rider's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    6,299

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    yea I was hoping for more storm this issue but it was a good issue nonetheless. and you bring up a lot of great questions. if I had to guess it would seem that every councilman vote carries equal weight but majority rules. we kind of saw this when it came to sabretooth only this time everyone agreed. I would like to understand the significance too of the houses and and how they were grouped to the respective season but all of your questions are really good so I hope we get answers to them.

    it screams guggs. why does ororo look like she is terrified running away as kitty walkis in bada$$ before saying "i got this. I'm a ninja." no thanks. because of that I'm sitting this out. sorry not sorry.
    Same feelings here. With the council I got the impression that it is a majority vote rule, and with Sabretooth I wasn’t surprised by the outcome, but do we think Magneto, Frost, Sinister, Apoc (or even Storm) would abide by a decision they vehemently disagreed with? I can still see personal agendas getting pushed irrespective of a vote. And even then, with Xavier, Apoc, & Magneto as the founders who breaks a tie if a vote is split? Also, when not in session what else does the council do to govern the Krakoa locations?

  2. #6272
    Incredible Member Ororo101's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    726

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    So I asked a similar question on CV and wanted to get your thoughts here. But before I do please understand I know they are friends and care deeply for each other. I dont think this can be questioned. However, examining their relationship throughout the years it does not appear Jean has always had Ororo's best interest in mind and thos past week with the release of Marvel 1001 made me reassess their friendship, at least as it relates to Jean in how she perceives Ororo. I also wanted a larger feedback but I figured if posted here it wouldnt cause too much drama. That said.... lets discuss

    The latest issue of Marvel 1001 inspired this thought and I think I can conclude that Jean really isn't her friend. A few things have occurred throughout their relationship that helped me come to this conclusion.

    1. In the Classic Xmen story, Jean exerted her privilege when judging Ororo about not needing to wear clothing. They later would go on a girls night out on the town and Jean committed the ultimate sin and violated Ororo by reading her mind without her permission:

    Attachment 87999

    Attachment 88000


    Ororo eventually forgave Jean as she came up with some lame excuse about not being able to control her powers but that wouldnt be the last time Jean would wrong her.

    During the Dark Phoenix saga, Jean's ultimate desires were being fulfilled via Mastermind. One of those fantasies was reliving the colonial period in which she viewed Ororo as a slave and treated her accordingly:





    I think this was probably the worst thing she could have done to Ororo and for me it sealed the deal on this question for me.

    Nevertheless, it was recently revealed that during a period after Jean returned from the death of Phoenix Ororo left the xmen for a brief period and Jean didnt care about her emotions, why she left and even acknowledged she was a jerk but was glad to see her leave:






    Lastly, Jean helped push Forge to ultimately end up breaking off his engagement to Ororo. This was one of the happiest moments of Ororo's life yet Jean in her instigation ruined that moment for her:




    These things Jean has done Ororo never even knew. So I don't think that Jean is a friend or at the very least hasnt been a good friend to Ororo. What are your thoughts?

    Attachment 88001

    I don’t happen to agree with one of these assessments of Jean actually, Kyss. Granted they happen to be my favorite friendship in the MU so bias might be implicated but a lot of my views on the matters align with Jwatson.

    1) Jean is only “judging” Ororo by the times and society in which they abide, knowing full well that a naked woman especially of color walking around NYC in the 1970’s would not be accepted and would most likely cause adverse and perhaps violent reactions from the public and probably law enforcement as well. She even says as much by admitting “society wasn’t ready for such self-possession”. And honestly if you turned around to a flash of lightning followed by your friend’s sudden stark body in front of you unexpectedly, wouldn’t you spit out your coffee?

    And I don’t think it was a lame excuse at all for Jean to point out that Ororo’s mind was screaming with trauma at the thought of going down into that subway station. We all remember how crippling Ororo’s claustrophobia was for her in those early days and we’ve also been told many times by countless other telepaths that the trick for them is not reading minds but shutting them out when undesired. Amongst the general public entering the subway calmly, Ororo’s phobia and the cause of it must have seemed like someone was screaming all of a sudden in a crowd of previously normal tones that we as people usually ignore and don’t draw our attention. I don’t think it’s fair to judge Jean for “an ultimate violation” when she directly apologized after Ororo put the whup up on her and explicitly explained that it was not her intention to pry. She certainly wouldn’t let it happen again lol.

    2) This one is on Jason Wyngarde’s doing to me. It was his undue influence that was purposefully corrupting Jean’s psyche to more malicious and malevolent tendencies and his initial psychic tinkering that introduced the Colonial time period and world into Jean’s mind. At that point she was in between his colonial illusions and the verge of Dark Phoenix herself so I don’t think there was much room for Jean’s own presence and psyche to dictate that now highly off color slave scene.

    3) I think everyone, Jean, Storm, and X-men fans alike, that have come across this panel has unanimously agreed that it was bogus to the extreme, extremely ooc sounding for Jean, and a really dumb and unnecessary addition to a comic with no actual significance or purpose. I’m going to ignore it because to me it’s just that irrelevant and what appears to me to be the product of a writer who just doesn’t like Storm themselves.

    4) Lastly, while she could’ve handled that last one more subtly, it was Forge who was acting like a grown ass man-child here and it was completely unfair of him to attack her with a question like that, to the point of physically shaking her. He’s lucky she didn’t mind bolt TF out of him for that bs. She was absolutely right in saying it was not her place to express her friends true feelings about anyone she’s interested in and Forge didn’t deserve Ororo if he couldn’t grow TF up and wait for her own, authentic response to him. Thank God he did get butthurt for no reason and act a fool though because that was such a dodged bullet for Ororo, I’m almost grateful. Screw him.

    The reason why I maybe tend to lean towards giving Jean the benefit of the doubt on this interpretational instances is because everything else we’ve been shown/told of them over the last 45 years has lent to the belief that Ororo truly is Jean’s best friend and closest confidant outside of Cyclops. Going so far as to refer to each other as sisters over the years. I could post at least 15 counter showings of instances where they love, friendship, and loyalty shine through undoubtedly. Jean would never let someone mess with Ororo which we saw as recently as her all but threatening Trinary in X-men Red when she offered to take Ororo out and vice versa with Ororo bodying Emma against a wall when she dared to threaten Jean. Let’s also not forget that Jean is the only other person alive, T’challa included(besides her grandparents obviously) who had the opportunity to meet Ororo’s parents when she went into the the “afterlife” to try and save her. Something Ororo wouldn’t share with anyone but her closest and most trusted friend. We have so many beautiful storylines that positively portray these omega level besties that I would never want to tarnish that without proper cause. Jean has done a lot of questionable things in her life in general, her relationship with Ororo being one thing that I would hate to demonize. I never want these two to grow apart or come to odds, it would honestly break my heart.

    3D52C65F-2A3C-4C2A-9D50-D1FE91867F2B.jpg

    8C6586B7-907E-4B4C-A182-25BDED8ACD2F.jpg

    41E13FEF-2234-4C93-B0EE-E02DD17F7A62.jpg

    To this day seeing Jean meet Ororo’s parents and having them thank her for being such a good friend to their baby when they couldn’t be there for her immediately makes me tear up. Perhaps one of my all time favorite Jean-Ororo moments because it is beyond beautiful.
    Last edited by Ororo101; 10-07-2019 at 08:32 AM.

  3. #6273
    Extraordinary Member stormphoenix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    California,Sacramento
    Posts
    5,559

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post

    it's important because she doesnt do this typically. it would be a hint marvel is starting to develop her defensive abilities.
    If Marvel is hinting that then that’s cool. But it’s really not THAT important.
    Last edited by stormphoenix; 10-07-2019 at 09:08 AM.
    MUTANT and PROUD
    #KRAKOA FOREVER

    #catchmutanthands

  4. #6274
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    2,963

    Default

    On point, Ororo101...on-fokkin'-point!
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  5. #6275
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    6,519

    Default

    I don't know why Kyss brought up that scene with Forge. If I was the same situation I would've shut down Forge too.
    "Cable was right!"

  6. #6276
    Extraordinary Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    9,004

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    So I asked a similar question on CV and wanted to get your thoughts here. But before I do please understand I know they are friends and care deeply for each other. I dont think this can be questioned. However, examining their relationship throughout the years it does not appear Jean has always had Ororo's best interest in mind and thos past week with the release of Marvel 1001 made me reassess their friendship, at least as it relates to Jean in how she perceives Ororo. I also wanted a larger feedback but I figured if posted here it wouldnt cause too much drama. That said.... lets discuss

    The latest issue of Marvel 1001 inspired this thought and I think I can conclude that Jean really isn't her friend. A few things have occurred throughout their relationship that helped me come to this conclusion.

    1. In the Classic Xmen story, Jean exerted her privilege when judging Ororo about not needing to wear clothing. They later would go on a girls night out on the town and Jean committed the ultimate sin and violated Ororo by reading her mind without her permission:

    Attachment 87999

    Attachment 88000


    Ororo eventually forgave Jean as she came up with some lame excuse about not being able to control her powers but that wouldnt be the last time Jean would wrong her.

    During the Dark Phoenix saga, Jean's ultimate desires were being fulfilled via Mastermind. One of those fantasies was reliving the colonial period in which she viewed Ororo as a slave and treated her accordingly:





    I think this was probably the worst thing she could have done to Ororo and for me it sealed the deal on this question for me.

    Nevertheless, it was recently revealed that during a period after Jean returned from the death of Phoenix Ororo left the xmen for a brief period and Jean didnt care about her emotions, why she left and even acknowledged she was a jerk but was glad to see her leave:






    Lastly, Jean helped push Forge to ultimately end up breaking off his engagement to Ororo. This was one of the happiest moments of Ororo's life yet Jean in her instigation ruined that moment for her:




    These things Jean has done Ororo never even knew. So I don't think that Jean is a friend or at the very least hasnt been a good friend to Ororo. What are your thoughts?

    Attachment 88001
    The DPS one is sketchy for the very fact that its noted that those were not fantasies that Mastermind plucked out of thin air they were Jeans or Xerox Jeans deepest darkest fantasies that he plucked out of her mind. The second point to this that is noteworthy is that even though she acknowledged that the thoughts were uncouth on some level she was attracted to them.

    I don't think much of the Forge scene or the other scene. But the DPS one goes deeper.

    https://twitter.com/mymonsterischic/...726248448?s=19
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by ExodusCloak; 10-07-2019 at 09:55 AM.

  7. #6277
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    2,963

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marvell2100 View Post
    But we expect her to speak out on mutant issues. However mutants aren't the only group being persecuted.

    I don't expect Storm to be the spokesperson for every social issue but damn she's gotta have an opinion and speak to it.

    With respect to Killerbee911's reply, I will add...Maybe (as a reader and person of colour) you are perhaps expecting too much of the X-Writers.
    Who, all things considered...

    1: Come into this franchise with set stories already in mind, that encapsulates ALL their chosen (sometimes mandated) x-characters (for particular story-arcs) and for whom, Storm's concerns/interests on socio-political issues as they affect Black American Women are not at the forefront of stories they want to tell, or, relevant to the over-arching stories they are telling. That said, it's clear that character-specific socio-political themes/issues are 'easier' to tell in a solo-book format and not in a team book with 5-7 other characters, that are expected to be given equal prominence in story.

    2: May not feel as adept at broaching such themes with regards to specific characters like Storm. Claremont (White/English), arguably Storm's best and definitive writer didn't delve deeper into the race/gender issues outside of the "being Mutant" issues. Hudlin (Black/American) on Black Panther gave greater commentary on the Black experience (as it pertained to the characters, in general) with varying degrees of depth and success. (And this is not even taking into account the writer's personal views on such matters (which can differ from general consensus) and whether or not should he/she speak those views through the voice of the characters he/she's writing...which, if not handled with care, can do more harm than good for the character, the writers and the franchise.)

    Bottom-line...if you really want to read in-depth, verifiable, specific and direct discourse on such topics as race/gender/social/political (as opposed to the allegorical, metaphorical and underlying approach) then perhaps you may look to comic books/comic authors/solo characters that offer those themes more specifically...they exist and google is your friend.

    Personally...from and in-character perspective...She's Black. She's a Woman. She's a Mutant. She's a Hero.
    She may certainly have her own personal views but I'm guessing (through my enforced Suspension of Disbelief) they most definitely align with the larger role she's chosen as a Hero of Humanity, and that is good enough for me.
    Last edited by Devaishwarya; 10-07-2019 at 10:04 AM.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  8. #6278
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    16,808

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marvell2100 View Post
    But we expect her to speak out on mutant issues. However mutants aren't the only group being persecuted.

    I don't expect Storm to be the spokesperson for every social issue but damn she's gotta have an opinion and speak to it.

    Exactly and especially to those issues that she would have the greatest empathy towards. I am certain she wouldnt be insulated from the tragedies that impact black people in America even if she herself never experienced it, though if a woman such as oprah can experience racism I'm certain ororo would as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    The only one on this list that i would argue against is the Forge one. It really wasn't Jean's place as a telepath to tell a man what ororo's personal thoughts were on if she loved him or not. At the end of the day that would have been a violation of their friendship. If Forge doubted Ororo's love he didn't deserve her because at the end of the day it would have always been a problem.

    The other one i could debate is the one where Storm leaves the x-men and jean is basically a you know what. In that instance it looks like she has her xfactor costume so it could have been during a time where she was dealing with the complexities of having Madelyne Priors consciousness within her own. Also i wouldn't want to be sitting in the rain 24/7, it was so bad jubilee has a bucket. lol

    The slave one i would chalk up to a product of the time. And the whole purpose was to show how twisted she actually was at the time and it was very effective.

    The close one makes sense to me, in America, how would it be taken a black woman walking around naked, or any woman for that matter. She could have been attacked etc. I also remember Xavier mentioning it to which Moira was like it's a shame her innocence has to be seen in such a bad way. Nightcrawler as well mentioned it when they were swimming and all the guys came out and he was trying to cover her up before they saw her naked.

    Also i have that story the whole thing it's in one of those x-men visionaries and Jean did not read Ororo's mind without her permission, it's what Ororo though. But Jean explained her fear of going underground was so loud she couldn't block it out. All in all i don't think it's that bad friends have moments much worse than these.
    1. Exactly. It was not her place to interject herself in Ororo's affairs. However, I totally agree Forge was NEVER worthy of Ororo's love. He was always an abusive a$$hole since their first encounter when she loss her powers.

    2. lolol not jubes with the bucket. I wouldnt like that either lol. but if Jean, even with the complexities you mentioned, did she ever show apathy towards ororo during that time?

    3. Regardless of when it was written it is still canon and racist. Because she had those fantasies then towards Ororo it makes it acceptable?

    4. Ororo wasnt walking around naked though. She was in an apartment and was changing her outfit in front of Jean. The issue for Jean was that Ororo wasnt modest. This was also the case for Ororo when she was swimming. She was in thry confines of the mansion around people she trusted. There was never such an instance where she walked outside the confines/security of her friends where she behaved as such.

    5. Jean did the same thing with Iceman when she outed him. My head canon was that Jean was afraid Ororo was about to get into that @as so she came up with an excuse. She had been a student at Xavier's way too long to have such a reaction. oh gurl was just scared as she should have been lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    oh and f*#k Forge. I forgot all about how he tried to akin ororo to a damn dog. "Stray" While his punk a$$ was getting his jollies trying to help mystique.
    he was a bish and will ALWAYS be a bish for what he did. him and mystique deserve each other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wind Rider View Post
    Same feelings here. With the council I got the impression that it is a majority vote rule, and with Sabretooth I wasn’t surprised by the outcome, but do we think Magneto, Frost, Sinister, Apoc (or even Storm) would abide by a decision they vehemently disagreed with? I can still see personal agendas getting pushed irrespective of a vote. And even then, with Xavier, Apoc, & Magneto as the founders who breaks a tie if a vote is split? Also, when not in session what else does the council do to govern the Krakoa locations?
    you know I was thinking about how votes would be handled if they are split. I have a theory here. The month, followed by the prevailing season would have higher rank. For instance (I'm not sure how the months are grouped) but if you are in the season of autumn and if its January (1st month and xavier) then that season would have higher rank in the event of split vote then their season would prevail. Now if there was conflict within that season, that is Apocalypse, Xavier and Magneto disagreed, then Xavier would have higher rank since it's the month of January. Despite how much they disagreed they would have to agree to the terms of the council. I would imagine that could lead to future co conflict but remember this council is temporary and not meant to be how Krakoa will always be managed.
    ALL HAIL THE HADARI YAO!!!! NOW AGAIN THE ONE TRUE AND ONLY GODDESS OF THE X-MEN AS CLAREMONT INTENDED!!!!!

  9. #6279
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    16,808

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ororo101 View Post
    I don’t happen to agree with one of these assessments of Jean actually, Kyss. Granted they happen to be my favorite friendship in the MU so bias might be implicated but a lot of my views on the matters align with Jwatson.

    1) Jean is only “judging” Ororo by the times and society in which they abide, knowing full well that a naked woman especially of color walking around NYC in the 1970’s would not be accepted and would most likely cause adverse and perhaps violent reactions from the public and probably law enforcement as well. She even says as much by admitting “society wasn’t ready for such self-possession”. And honestly if you turned around to a flash of lightning followed by your friend’s sudden stark body in front of you unexpectedly, wouldn’t you spit out your coffee?

    And I don’t think it was a lame excuse at all for Jean to point out that Ororo’s mind was screaming with trauma at the thought of going down into that subway station. We all remember how crippling Ororo’s claustrophobia was for her in those early days and we’ve also been told many times by countless other telepaths that the trick for them is not reading minds but shutting them out when undesired. Amongst the general public entering the subway calmly, Ororo’s phobia and the cause of it must have seemed like someone was screaming all of a sudden in a crowd of previously normal tones that we as people usually ignore and don’t draw our attention. I don’t think it’s fair to judge Jean for “an ultimate violation” when she directly apologized after Ororo put the whup up on her and explicitly explained that it was not her intention to pry. She certainly wouldn’t let it happen again lol.

    2) This one is on Jason Wyngarde’s doing to me. It was his undue influence that was purposefully corrupting Jean’s psyche to more malicious and malevolent tendencies and his initial psychic tinkering that introduced the Colonial time period and world into Jean’s mind. At that point she was in between his colonial illusions and the verge of Dark Phoenix herself so I don’t think there was much room for Jean’s own presence and psyche to dictate that now highly off color slave scene.

    3) I think everyone, Jean, Storm, and X-men fans alike, that have come across this panel has unanimously agreed that it was bogus to the extreme, extremely ooc sounding for Jean, and a really dumb and unnecessary addition to a comic with no actual significance or purpose. I’m going to ignore it because to me it’s just that irrelevant and what appears to me to be the product of a writer who just doesn’t like Storm themselves.

    4) Lastly, while she could’ve handled that last one more subtly, it was Forge who was acting like a grown ass man-child here and it was completely unfair of him to attack her with a question like that, to the point of physically shaking her. He’s lucky she didn’t mind bolt TF out of him for that bs. She was absolutely right in saying it was not her place to express her friends true feelings about anyone she’s interested in and Forge didn’t deserve Ororo if he couldn’t grow TF up and wait for her own, authentic response to him. Thank God he did get butthurt for no reason and act a fool though because that was such a dodged bullet for Ororo, I’m almost grateful. Screw him.

    The reason why I maybe tend to lean towards giving Jean the benefit of the doubt on this interpretational instances is because everything else we’ve been shown/told of them over the last 45 years has lent to the belief that Ororo truly is Jean’s best friend and closest confidant outside of Cyclops. Going so far as to refer to each other as sisters over the years. I could post at least 15 counter showings of instances where they love, friendship, and loyalty shine through undoubtedly. Jean would never let someone mess with Ororo which we saw as recently as her all but threatening Trinary in X-men Red when she offered to take Ororo out and vice versa with Ororo bodying Emma against a wall when she dared to threaten Jean. Let’s also not forget that Jean is the only other person alive, T’challa included(besides her grandparents obviously) who had the opportunity to meet Ororo’s parents when she went into the the “afterlife” to try and save her. Something Ororo wouldn’t share with anyone but her closest and most trusted friend. We have so many beautiful storylines that positively portray these omega level besties that I would never want to tarnish that without proper cause. Jean has done a lot of questionable things in her life in general, her relationship with Ororo being one thing that I would hate to demonize. I never want these two to grow apart or come to odds, it would honestly break my heart.

    3D52C65F-2A3C-4C2A-9D50-D1FE91867F2B.jpg

    8C6586B7-907E-4B4C-A182-25BDED8ACD2F.jpg

    41E13FEF-2234-4C93-B0EE-E02DD17F7A62.jpg

    To this day seeing Jean meet Ororo’s parents and having them thank her for being such a good friend to their baby when they couldn’t be there for her immediately makes me tear up. Perhaps one of my all time favorite Jean-Ororo moments because it is beyond beautiful.
    Hey boo. I have biases too as Jean is not one of my favs so I guess that makes us even lol.. But all in all let's discuss!!

    1. As I mentioned to Jwats, I think the issue was more about Ororo being modest as opposed to what she would wear on the streets of NYC. Never had Ororo ventured into NYC naked and any time she was as such was in the privacy of the mansion or around the security of her friends. Being naked for her was the ultimate form of vulnerability so her being able to do this around Jean was because she trusted her. I didnt have issue with Jean's spitting out the coffee; however, her judgmental statement asking Ororo doesnt she believe in clothes came across very condescending and for all of her naivety Jean should have been more sensitive to Ororo being in a different culture.

    To Jean's ultimate violation, how long had she been an xmen prior to that instance? How many battles and intense confrontations has she experienced without inadvertently reading everyone's minds? To me it was a cop out but taking her for her word I understand how it would not be fair to judge her by that incident (though my head canon again is that the bish just got scared lol).

    2. Jason wasnt influencing her. He was simply allowing her to embrace her innermost dark desires. He even explains this:



    The colonial period was just an illusion that allowed her to embrace those dark desires of power and superiority which manifested in Jean's inner racist ideals around Ororo.

    3. Of course you and others have every right to ignore it; however it is canon and is it truly OOC. Dark Phoenix demonstrated that Jean isnt this lily white unflawed person without dark tendencies. That could have been just her true and raw emotion regarding Ororo at the time.

    4. Hey I agree forge is an arse and I'm glad it happened they way it did but Jean's response to Forges question did confirm what he thought. Jean should have never had that conversation with Forge and she was out of line for it. How do you think Ororo would have felt towards Jean having such a convo which led to her not being able, at that time, to finally experience happiness beyond being just an xman?

    To all the things you mentioned about what Jean has been allowed to do as it relates to Ororo has been in context of Ororo not fully being aware of the shady things Jean has done. Ororo wasnt aware of Jean talking smack when she left the xmen, nor was she fully aware deep down inside Jean had racist attitudes towards Ororo, nor does she know the conversation she had with Forge. I guess I say that Ororo has been the kind of friend that has been loving and supportive unconditionally, but when you look at Jean in comparison I don't think we can objectively say the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by stormphoenix View Post
    If Marvel is hinting that then that’s cool. But it’s really not THAT important.
    I thought you wanted her to have better durability? her creating shields would finally help counter the whole glass cannon argument against her in battle threads.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triniking1234 View Post
    I don't know why Kyss brought up that scene with Forge. If I was the same situation I would've shut down Forge too.

    Jean didnt shut Forge down though. She only confirmed what Forge had feared when trying to assess if he should propose to Ororo. Ororo dodged the bullet but that doesnt negate the fact Jean's discussion with him was inappropriate.
    Last edited by butterflykyss; 10-07-2019 at 03:38 PM.
    ALL HAIL THE HADARI YAO!!!! NOW AGAIN THE ONE TRUE AND ONLY GODDESS OF THE X-MEN AS CLAREMONT INTENDED!!!!!

  10. #6280
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    16,808

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    The DPS one is sketchy for the very fact that its noted that those were not fantasies that Mastermind plucked out of thin air they were Jeans or Xerox Jeans deepest darkest fantasies that he plucked out of her mind. The second point to this that is noteworthy is that even though she acknowledged that the thoughts were uncouth on some level she was attracted to them.

    I don't think much of the Forge scene or the other scene. But the DPS one goes deeper.

    https://twitter.com/mymonsterischic/...726248448?s=19
    exactly the point I was trying to convey. we have to assess those moments for what they were; it wasnt mastermind forcing her to think or behave to a manner he wanted. those were her desires.
    ALL HAIL THE HADARI YAO!!!! NOW AGAIN THE ONE TRUE AND ONLY GODDESS OF THE X-MEN AS CLAREMONT INTENDED!!!!!

  11. #6281

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post

    1. In the Classic Xmen story, Jean exerted her privilege when judging Ororo about not needing to wear clothing. They later would go on a girls night out on the town and Jean committed the ultimate sin and violated Ororo by reading her mind without her permission:

    Attachment 87999

    Attachment 88000

    Ororo eventually forgave Jean as she came up with some lame excuse about not being able to control her powers but that wouldnt be the last time Jean would wrong her.
    That wasn't a lame excuse. Under Claremont, telepathy is always on and telepaths have to work hard to not read someone's mind. Why do you think it is a lame excuse? Jean perfectly explained it in the story and Ororo understood.
    jean1.jpg

    They ended the story hand-in-hand with Jean helping Ororo confront her claustraphobia:
    jean2.jpg

    Ororo even got to experience how telepathy worked herself during the Emma body swap:
    jean3.jpg

    Which reminds me that Emma stole Ororo's body and did terrible things. In her first appearance, Emma Frost was mind-raping Storm for hours until Jean rescued her. Why would you call Jean inadvertently reading Storm's mind the "ultimate sin" when Ororo has been through much, much worse with Emma.

  12. #6282
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    16,808

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by magenta View Post
    That wasn't a lame excuse. Under Claremont, telepathy is always on and telepaths have to work hard to not read someone's mind. Why do you think it is a lame excuse? Jean perfectly explained it in the story and Ororo understood.
    jean1.jpg

    They ended the story hand-in-hand with Jean helping Ororo confront her claustraphobia:
    jean2.jpg

    Ororo even got to experience how telepathy worked herself during the Emma body swap:
    jean3.jpg

    Which reminds me that Emma stole Ororo's body and did terrible things. In her first appearance, Emma Frost was mind-raping Storm for hours until Jean rescued her. Why would you call Jean inadvertently reading Storm's mind the "ultimate sin" when Ororo has been through much, much worse with Emma.
    Jean is an experienced telepath though who had been an xmen fighting against villains such as magneto, juggernaut, etc., well before Ororo came onto the scene. So for Ororo to have those issues I understand but Jean at that point shouldnt have as she was not a novice. I actually thought the "ultimate sin" statement were words she used but that was incorrect. She only called it betrayal. That said, you are right Ororo was forgiving of Jean and always has been, so I do believe Ororo has been a true friend to Jean. However, I think there are enough instances from canon now especially with the release of marvel 1001 that demonstrate Jean hasnt always been the best friend she could have been towards Ororo.

    And you're absolutely right about Emma. Emma's aggressions towards Ororo by far outweighs anything Jean has done with the exception of I would argue od the dark Phoenix scans. To think Ororo's best friend harbors racist ideas about her at the core of her being is quite concerning and sad imho.
    ALL HAIL THE HADARI YAO!!!! NOW AGAIN THE ONE TRUE AND ONLY GODDESS OF THE X-MEN AS CLAREMONT INTENDED!!!!!

  13. #6283
    The Professional Marvell2100's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    All Along The Watchtower
    Posts
    10,144

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    With respect to Killerbee911's reply, I will add...Maybe (as a reader and person of colour) you are perhaps expecting too much of the X-Writers.
    Who, all things considered...

    1: Come into this franchise with set stories already in mind, that encapsulates ALL their chosen (sometimes mandated) x-characters (for particular story-arcs) and for whom, Storm's concerns/interests on socio-political issues as they affect Black American Women are not at the forefront of stories they want to tell, or, relevant to the over-arching stories they are telling. That said, it's clear that character-specific socio-political themes/issues are 'easier' to tell in a solo-book format and not in a team book with 5-7 other characters, that are expected to be given equal prominence in story.

    2: May not feel as adept at broaching such themes with regards to specific characters like Storm. Claremont (White/English), arguably Storm's best and definitive writer didn't delve deeper into the race/gender issues outside of the "being Mutant" issues. Hudlin (Black/American) on Black Panther gave greater commentary on the Black experience (as it pertained to the characters, in general) with varying degrees of depth and success. (And this is not even taking into account the writer's personal views on such matters (which can differ from general consensus) and whether or not should he/she speak those views through the voice of the characters he/she's writing...which, if not handled with care, can do more harm than good for the character, the writers and the franchise.)

    Bottom-line...if you really want to read in-depth, verifiable, specific and direct discourse on such topics as race/gender/social/political (as opposed to the allegorical, metaphorical and underlying approach) then perhaps you may look to comic books/comic authors/solo characters that offer those themes more specifically...they exist and google is your friend.

    Personally...from and in-character perspective...She's Black. She's a Woman. She's a Mutant. She's a Hero.
    She may certainly have her own personal views but I'm guessing (through my enforced Suspension of Disbelief) they most definitely align with the larger role she's chosen as a Hero of Humanity, and that is good enough for me.
    If a writer is not adept at writing about social issues, then why are they writing X-Men?

    I don't need to be a woman to know that domestic violence is wrong. I don't need to be LGTBQ to know that sexual preference bias is wrong. I don't need to be shot to know that a bullet can hurt or kill me.

    If an X-writer is uncomfortable writing about it, then they need to get out the way.

    And Google is no one's friend. It doesn't care about you one way or another.
    Last edited by Marvell2100; 10-07-2019 at 01:34 PM.

  14. #6284
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    4,478

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    Hey boo. I have biases too as Jean is not one of my favs so I guess that makes us even lol.. But all in all let's discuss!!

    1. As I mentioned to Jwats, I think the issue was more about Ororo being modest as opposed to what she would wear on the streets of NYC. Never had Ororo ventured into NYC naked and any time she was as such was in the privacy of the mansion or around the security of her friends. Being naked for her was the ultimate form of vulnerability so her being able to do this around Jean was because she trusted her. I didnt have issue with Jean's spitting out the coffee; however, her judgmental statement asking Ororo doesnt she believe in clothes came across very condescending and for all of her naivety Jean should have been more sensitive to Ororo being in a different culture.

    To Jean's ultimate violation, how long had she been an xmen prior to that instance? How many battles and intense confrontations has she experienced without inadvertently reading everyone's minds? To me it was a cop out but taking her for her word I understand how it would not be fair to judge her by that incident (though my head canon again is that the bish just got scared lol).

    2. Jason wasnt influencing her. He was simply allowing her to embrace her innermost dark desires. He even explains this:



    The colonial period was just an illusion that allowed her to embrace those dark desires of power and superiority which manifested in Jean's inner racist ideals around Ororo.

    3. Of course you and others have every right to ignore it; however it is canon and is it truly OOC. Dark Phoenix demonstrated that Jean isnt this lily white unflawed person without dark tendencies. That could have been just her true and raw emotion regarding Ororo at the time.

    4. Hey I agree forge is an arse and I'm glad it happened they way it did but Jean's response to Forges question did confirm what he thought. Jean should have never had that conversation with Forge and she was out of line for it. How do you think Ororo would have felt towards Jean having such a convo which led to her not being able, at that time, to finally experience happiness beyond being just an xman?

    To all the things you mentioned about what Jean has been allowed to do as it relates to Ororo has been in context of Ororo not fully being aware of the shady things Jean has done. Ororo wasnt aware of Jean talking smack when she left the xmen, nor was she fully aware deep down inside Jean had racist attitudes towards Ororo, nor does she know the conversation she had with Forge. I guess I say that Ororo has been the kind of friend that has been loving and supportive unconditionally, but when you look at Jean in comparison I don't think we can objectively say the same.



    I thought you wanted her to have better durability? her creating shields would finally help counter the whole glass canon argument against her in battle threads.




    Jean didnt shut Forge down though. She only confirmed what Forge had feared when trying to assess if he should propose to Ororo. Ororo dodged the bullet but that doesnt negate the fact Jean's discussion with him was inappropriate.
    About the slave thing. I just have a hard time blaming Jean for that personally. I know i personally have had a lot of dark thoughts that i would never act on in my right mind. Perhaps claremont was implying no matter how close a white person is, especially at that time to a person of color those institutionalized feelings are there and sometimes buried very very deep, so deep we don't even know they exist and as such that's why the elephant in the room has to be addressed. But i can't say if someone unlocked my darkest thoughts and uncaged my moral cage what i would say about people who i thought were my friends. I don't know what hidden thoughts or emotions or anger i may feel towards a person when i didn't think i felt much of anything at all.

    If there were hints of Jean being racist towards Ororo or seeing her as less than that would completely change my thoughts on the situation but one instance when ones hidden repressed desires and feelings are brought to the forefront makes it hard. I would hope if i was in Storm's shoes i could understand it but there would definitely be a conversation to see where that might have come from. It felt more meta than Jean herself to me.

    As for the Marvel 1002, that's the same outfit Jean had on when Storm and Jean found out each other were alive so she definitely showed she cared during that time. That's the inferno/ x-factor costume.
    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.

  15. #6285
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    16,808

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marvell2100 View Post
    If a writer is not adept at writing about social issues, then why are they writing X-Men?

    I don't need to be a woman to know that domestic violence is wrong. I don't need to be LGTBQ to know that gender bias is wrong. I don't need to be shot to know that a bullet can hurt or kill me.

    If an X-writer is uncomfortable writing about it, then they need to get out the way.

    And Google is no one's friend. It doesn't care about you one way or another.




    you are speaking waaaaayyyyyy too much truth in here today!!!
    ALL HAIL THE HADARI YAO!!!! NOW AGAIN THE ONE TRUE AND ONLY GODDESS OF THE X-MEN AS CLAREMONT INTENDED!!!!!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •