Page 614 of 662 FirstFirst ... 114514564604610611612613614615616617618624 ... LastLast
Results 9,196 to 9,210 of 9921
  1. #9196
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    4,374

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by terrancejameson View Post
    Imo Jwatson TíChalla is discussing his blind ambition towards the stars. He succeeded with sending his people into space. They took Wakandan ideals into space but not itís heart. TíChalla and Ororo are both discussing areas where they were blind to plight of other black people. TíChalla just came back from his (on top of losing his complete memory) and Ororo is reminding him of her reckoning with herself over her place in HER community. Isnít that where you want her to shine most, my friend? In a community of her mutant peers?

    To be clear, TíChalla has all the answers at the close of S2. Ororo says as much and I have the issue to prove it. She tells us again that he is the most intelligent and strategic man that sheís ever known. Nakia is even impressed by his genius. Itís part of his personality.

    Are you saying that Ororo hasnít known what itís like being the outsider since she was a little girl? She had to prove herself against children who hated her simply for who and what she was since she first started stealing. Dickie had some kids call her ďAmericanĒ as an insult, but she had no idea what that meant for her life. We know she didnít learn it when she first went to her parents old home. We donít know when she learned, but she did. We donít know if she learned it before Kitty started screaming nigger, but eventually she did. TíChalla knows she knows. Iím hoping he assumed she picked up on it pretty quickly, and isnít as good as feigning ignorance as some X-writers would leave us to believe.
    Unlike coates work you really don't need to interpret my posts for the main part they say what they say. But if you want to bring up Ororo's childhood then no i don't believe her experience on the streets of Cairo as a thief mixed with the ultimate privilege of being worshiped as a goddess when her mutant powers manifested combined with a few visits to Harlem and a potential telepathic degree makes her more inclined to understand the underlying racism within a society than a world traveled black man who has one of the most intelligent minds on the planet and has spent far more time on the street level of America than Storm. But hey i can admit, maybe i'm just taking the story at face value. I'm not about to go into the recesses of fiction to tie this stuff together for him.
    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.

  2. #9197
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Posts
    718

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    Unlike coates work you really don't need to interpret my posts for the main part they say what they say. But if you want to bring up Ororo's childhood then no i don't believe her experience on the streets of Cairo as a thief mixed with the ultimate privilege of being worshiped as a goddess when her mutant powers manifested combined with a few visits to Harlem and a potential telepathic degree makes her more inclined to understand the underlying racism within a society than a world traveled black man who has one of the most intelligent minds on the planet and has spent far more time on the street level of America than Storm. But hey i can admit, maybe i'm just taking the story at face value. I'm not about to go into the recesses of fiction to tie this stuff together for him.
    Thatís good to know, my friend. I understood your points perfectly. Agree to disagree. My interpretation of their conversation suggests that TíChalla was referring to his blindness to the empireís slavery, not Americaís. Storm is explaining when she first came to fully understand it. Not even Hickman has touched on that with her. Greg Pak came the closest. I think itís a slow week as a Storm fan waiting on the X-office to acknowledge Hadari Yao when they canít explicitly address her her intersectionality. She and TíChalla acknowledge it like water is wet. I wonít create my own fiction by saying the X-men have even come half as close to acknowledging the type of woman she is. Iíll leave the small council and the list of omegas to paint her story of intersectionality.

  3. #9198
    Fantastic Member GuiltyPleasure's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    467

    Default

    Privilege is often the source of blindness. I'm unsure why that's even a point of disagreement. We all have our blind spots, which doesn't, by default, equate to our level of intelligence but is a reflection of our socialization. Do able-bodied people think about their privilege, or even view it as such, on a daily basis as to see all of the little and perhaps big ways people with disabilities are marginalized in society? Do men? White people? Heterosexuals? Native speakers? Sure, when you are in a privileged group, you may see how those outside of the group are not treated as equally or equitably as those within the group. But that doesn't mean you see or even understand it all.

    It isn't unreasonable, IMO, for T'Challa not to have seen something that, one, he probably didn't want to believe about Wakandans, and two, that wasn't blatantly obvious. Now, I'm not a Coates bandwagon fan, so my posts aren't about praising him and his storytelling. But I do think he often raises legitimate social issues within the pages of BP, which clearly don't work for certain readers and BP fans, while it does for others.

    There were two images that struck me that, visually, I think gets to Coates point about blinders and perspective. On the first page with Ororo and T'Challa there is an image of a staffer (that's the word T'Challa used to describe the palace workers on a later page) who was taking away his and Ororo's dinner plates. Now, go forward a few pages, and you'll see T'Challa being served a meal by a (staffer, servant, slave??) of the empire. Both actions were identical in the serving of a royal leader. So, where's the obvious difference to be found?

    Without knowing the history of slavery in the US ,for example, would someone visiting the US know, much less understand, the awful foundations upon which the country was built? Or would they see the surface and not think to dig deeper for the bigger, uglier truth? Yes, T'Challa is a brilliant man, but where is the room for him not to be all knowing or seeing?
    Last edited by GuiltyPleasure; 12-02-2019 at 10:34 AM.

  4. #9199
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    4,374

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GuiltyPleasure View Post
    Privilege is often the source of blindness. I'm unsure why that's even a point of disagreement. We all have our blind spots, which doesn't, by default, equate to our level of intelligence but is a reflection of our socialization. Do able-bodied people think about their privilege, or even view it as such, on a daily basis as to see all of the little and perhaps big ways people with disabilities are marginalized in society? Do men? White people? Heterosexuals? Native speakers? Sure, when you are in a privileged group, you may see how those outside of the group are not treated as equally or equitably as those within the group. But that doesn't mean you see or even understand it all.

    It isn't unreasonable, IMO, for T'Challa not to have seen something that, one, he probably didn't want to believe about Wakandans, and two, that wasn't blatantly obvious. Now, I'm not a Coates bandwagon fan, so my posts aren't about praising him and his storytelling. But I do think he often raises legitimate social issues within the pages of BP, which clearly don't work for certain readers and BP fans, while it does for others.

    There were two images that struck me that, visually, I think gets to Coates point about blinders and perspective. On the first page with Ororo and T'Challa there is an image of a staffer (that's the word T'Challa used to describe the palace workers on a later page) who was taking away his and Ororo's dinner plates. Now, go forward a few pages, and you'll see T'Challa being served a meal by a (staffer, servant, slave??) of the empire. Both actions were identical in the serving of a royal leader. So, where's the obvious difference to be found?

    Without knowing the history of slavery in the US ,for example, would someone visiting the US know, much less understand, the awful foundations upon which the country was built? Or would they see the surface and not think to dig deeper for the bigger, uglier truth? Yes, T'Challa is a brilliant man, but where is the room for him not to be all knowing or seeing?
    I can kind of see where your coming from but Tchalla is not the character for this moment imo. Tchalla as a black man who has spent much time in many countries including America surely would not be as blind to established racism and servitude as Coates wants fans to believe. Surely he wasn't that vain that he missed what had to not only be staring him in the face but he has had to experience on some level from these places. This is not some prince or king who spent his entire life locked behind the walls of the palace and escaped to view the real world for the first time. Coates can throw whatever social messages he wants in his work but to dumb down a character and make him beyond naive for it to work is not what i personally would call good writing or a good representation for said title character. But as you say, the way he raises these issues just doesn't work for some readers but imo it doesn't work for the characters either. As mentioned before BP has fought the clan, BP has been in America many times, BP has had issues in his comics in the past where racism and things like that were addressed so to ignore all that and act like there was no way he could have known insults his intelligence and those who have been reading the character for years imo. If he wants to act like Tchalla was willfully blind to what was happening in the galatic empire ok, thats one thing, but to have Storm try to inform him and the reader there was just NO possible way he could have known better was lazy and OOC for what we know of Tchalla and his history.
    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.

  5. #9200
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    2,495

    Default

    The issue is not with the "images" and ideology.
    The issue is that T'Challa...who's bled and died for Wakanda, who has protected Wakanda, who knows Wakanda's entire history throughout the centuries and understands how it came to be (as per Marvel's canonical history) could ever be blind to slavery and the enslavement of others, regardless of the circumstances.
    That is some Cosmic level OOC/PIS characterisation from Coates.

    From day one Coates has deliberately ignored everything that T'Challa, Black Panther and the world of Wakanda is and has achieved and stood for, just so that he can push his "Black Man Something or the other" ideology...that has/had absolutely NOTHING to do with the characters he was given to write.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  6. #9201
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Posts
    718

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GuiltyPleasure View Post
    Privilege is often the source of blindness. I'm unsure why that's even a point of disagreement. We all have our blind spots, which doesn't, by default, equate to our level of intelligence but is a reflection of our socialization. Do able-bodied people think about their privilege, or even view it as such, on a daily basis as to see all of the little and perhaps big ways people with disabilities are marginalized in society? Do men? White people? Heterosexuals? Native speakers? Sure, when you are in a privileged group, you may see how those outside of the group are not treated as equally or equitably as those within the group. But that doesn't mean you see or even understand it all.

    It isn't unreasonable, IMO, for T'Challa not to have seen something that, one, he probably didn't want to believe about Wakandans, and two, that wasn't blatantly obvious. Now, I'm not a Coates bandwagon fan, so my posts aren't about praising him and his storytelling. But I do think he often raises legitimate social issues within the pages of BP, which clearly don't work for certain readers and BP fans, while it does for others.

    There were two images that struck me that, visually, I think gets to Coates point about blinders and perspective. On the first page with Ororo and T'Challa there is an image of a staffer (that's the word T'Challa used to describe the palace workers on a later page) who was taking away his and Ororo's dinner plates. Now, go forward a few pages, and you'll see T'Challa being served a meal by a (staffer, servant, slave??) of the empire. Both actions were identical in the serving of a royal leader. So, where's the obvious difference to be found?

    Without knowing the history of slavery in the US ,for example, would someone visiting the US know, much less understand, the awful foundations upon which the country was built? Or would they see the surface and not think to dig deeper for the bigger, uglier truth? Yes, T'Challa is a brilliant man, but where is the room for him not to be all knowing or seeing?
    This right here. This. Fucking. Post. Itís okay to have blinders on sometimes. Weíre all human. I agree that TíChalla didnít want to see the worst in Wakandan human nature. Humans come in shades of grey. No one is perfect all the time. Ororo certainly isnít, but thatís okay. Sheís human and a goddess, but she fights like hell to keep her humanity. TíChalla was living the life of legend reborn. A name on the tongues of Wakandans across 5 galaxies. It didnít sit well with him because it didnít add up with what he felt. Ororoís face was his reminder that things were off.

    IMO it makes much more sense that Ororo is showing TíChalla where his blinders lie by highlighting her own. This issue reminds me so much #172. TíChalla removed the blinders Ororo had up from so many years of people making fun of her for the goddess phase. He elevated her thinking in a way that forced her to realize a power she always knew was there. She has turned around and done the same exact thing for him. She clearly admits to her blinders both in her anger and ignorance of the African-American experience as it applies to herself. Ororo remembers Marisol Guerra. I know she better. If she doesnít, sheís an idiot with absolutely no business having a conversation this far outside her understanding imho.

    I was done with you when you noted the visuals I missed previously. I will say that even in TíChallaís ďstupid phaseĒ he was blind to the empire because he chose to see the good in black people first, not the worst. Instead of Ororo calling him stupid, foolish or a buffoon, she tempers his empathy with a recollection of her once (and thankfully no longer) ill-bred ignorance of the societal woes of civilization built on slavery. Even in anger or disagreements they deal with one another in patience, kindness, sincerity and love. If I was to rip that ďfake wokeĒ concept off and throw it at a wall of white people, we could almost call it Krakoa, no? Iím old enough to catch the Living Single/ Friends shade if you catch my drift...

  7. #9202
    The Professional Marvell2100's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    All Along The Watchtower
    Posts
    9,932

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    The issue is not with the "images" and ideology.
    The issue is that T'Challa...who's bled and died for Wakanda, who has protected Wakanda, who knows Wakanda's entire history throughout the centuries and understands how it came to be (as per Marvel's canonical history) could ever be blind to slavery and the enslavement of others, regardless of the circumstances.
    That is some Cosmic level OOC/PIS characterisation from Coates.

    From day one Coates has deliberately ignored everything that T'Challa, Black Panther and the world of Wakanda is and has achieved and stood for, just so that he can push his "Black Man Something or the other" ideology...that has/had absolutely NOTHING to do with the characters he was given to write.
    This post sums it up.

  8. #9203
    Extraordinary Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Posts
    7,932

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by terrancejameson View Post
    My friend, Ezyo1000, I enjoy your ideas very much. I canít argue against your points because they make too much sense. I canít help noticing the clear connections from Coatesí run on Black Panther to MCU TíChalla and Wakanda. Iím going to dive in further, but Iíll preface this by saying that I donít expect to change your mind nor are you required to believe or see things as I do. MU Shuri is here to stay. Sheís not going anywhere. Okoye is right alongside TíChalla in Agents of Wakanda and now we have both Nakia and MíBaku from repackaged to gel with their MCU counterparts. Iím admittedly biased, but Iím willing to wager that Coates is crafting his stories to reflect MCU TíChalla.

    I donít think itís a slight against TíChalla for letting his ambition cloud his vision in regards to a GALACTIC WAKANDAN EMPIRE. An end to white supremacy does not mean peace for all black people imo. There are bound to be disagreements and conflict. I donít comment on the rape camps Coates planted in Wakanda. I was utterly turned off and I remain so to this day. It didnít need to happen in Wakanda to make his point, but then I notice a parallel to the opening of MCU Black Panther. TíChalla and Okoye both drop in on Nakia as she masquerades as a captive woman. We know theyíre not IN Wakanda, but we absolutely can assume that theyíre to be sold off. It makes me wonder...

    As far as we know MCU TíChalla is the equivalent of Tony Stark and Steve Rodgers combined. Heís never wanted for anything as the son of the king and heir to the throne. Iím not saying that he hasnít studied and trained abroad. Iím just saying we havenít seen it. We saw MCU Killmonger call him privileged as well. He wasnít wrong. We saw MCU Nakia show TíChalla a better way for Wakanda to embrace the world. If it wasnít for her Killmonger would have won the moral high ground along with his father. I love the latest issue because it doesnít question his intelligence imo.

    TíChalla ASSUMES Ororo had the wherewithal to understand and/or embrace the African-American experience. She didnít initially. She tells him that she had to learn more fore herself. Why wouldnít she? (Sheís just like him. Theyíre two halves of the same whole. Sheís the princess of an ancient kingdom as well.) IMO this conversation is an extension of their previous one under Priest. I love the irony of TíChallaís mention of Krakoa. His fight against the empire and his reluctance to agree to Krakoan terms makes even more sense. Storm is the one that appears partially blind. She called him out for becoming another Magneto. This story saw those words come to fruition in a way. He sees Krakoa going the same way and Storm doesnít. I do believe she understands the importance of mutants having their own. What I love is that this Storm and TíChalla both recognize the importance of what it means to be both black and mutant. I donít see how either character is under PIS to understand this.
    I don't want to derail rhe storm thread so we can move this over to the BP thread and I can really dive into more.

    You can't craft MCU T'Challa experience into my T'Challa stories. It doesn't work. They grew up too different andnif that's what Coates is doing then it's that much more obvious he didn't research at all. How can T'Challa not see racism when he liberated a planet and have actually fought the Klan in McGregor's era. MCU T'Challa and mu T'Challa are completely different. Mu T'Challa did not grow up privileged, he was forced to grow up as a child.

  9. #9204
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    16,054

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    The better question is what was actually IN Character for T'Challa this issue? He didn't see blatant slavery In His face? Dude liberated an entire planet in Hudlin era and called out the inhumans for still using slavery when he and storm visited them in world tour.

    He wanted to believe in a dream of a peaceful Wakanda Galaxy and instead of seeing the truth? T'Challa sees stuff for what it is, he even called out the wrong stuff happening in Wakanda and addressed it accordingly in Priest era, plus again see Hudlin era.

    He grew up privileged and that's why he didn't see it? dude lost his mother when he was a baby, and his father was killed infront of him and he was forced to grow up and be prepped to be king, he did a walkabout and learned how the World works, dude was not sitting in a comfy chair all day sipping mimosa's, on top of that people came to him and said he would be betrayed. In continuity T'Challa would of investigated that isht BEFORE Achebe even came to him, when he he feeling uneasy in the first place.

    He was obsessed with his pursuit of vibranium and the vain goal of his mother's Shadow? Dude is a king, peace spanning 5 galaxies would be suspicious as hell, he knows that everything isn't perfect, Hudlins Wakanda is the closest to a Utopia and there is still isht going on with it, I call BS on this as well and highly out of Character, also when this story started there was no mention of him obsessed with vibranium, he sent the explorers out to charter space, as Wakandas first alpha flight, so Coates contradicts himself.

    We are talking about one of the smartest men alive, two steps ahead always prepared, pragmatic Character. And for him to get his memory wiped successfully, Coates literally cut his IQ and by 60%. And the panels showing the betrayal? Could it be anymore obvious then that? Coates literally had to make T'Challa stupid to lose his memory.

    T'Challas character traits would of screamed at him to be suspicious of you know, a 5 galaxies spanning Wakandan empire and he is alone and knows nobody in this unfamiliar place. Yet Coates has him blindly walk into a super obvious trap? Come on now this is nothing of how T'Challa would be captured, how that went down that's how you expect him to willingly allow himself to be captured so he can further his goals.

    Coates should of just not even explained how he lost his memory because his explanation is poorly thought out and required high level of PIS and uncharacteristic behavior from T'Challa
    I think you make a lot of fair points but you are telling me that since 1966 when this character was creates he has never been outsmarted or never been susceptible to the flaws that make him a man? I recall how he "violently" responded to Ororo helping him when he was fighting Doom:

    Screenshot_20191202-122423_Samsung Internet.jpg

    Or how he hesitated for approximately 5 seconds when deciding between vibranium or saving his wife's life:



    Do you think Tchalla as you described him would respond in the manner in which he did above? Why would a man as experienced in the world and as intelligent be intimidated by his wife helping him? Why would he hesitate to save his wife? The answer is he is human and flawed. That is what Coates is showing that he isnt perfect despite all his strengths.
    ALL HAIL THE HADARI YAO!!!! NOW AGAIN THE ONE TRUE AND ONLY GODDESS OF THE X-MEN AS CLAREMONT INTENDED!!!!!

  10. #9205

    Default

    What is all this T'Challa talk doing in here? God, bringing up those horrible pages from their marriage is not helping me warm up to their relationship again.

    This is Ororo Munroe's Appreciation thread.

    Let's refocus on that.
    Let the flames destroy all but that which is pure and true!

  11. #9206
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    16,054

    Default

    we can appreciate the all-goddess' and her man as it relates to the latest issue of black panther. I dont see how discussing the pages of the latest issue of black panther is a deviation of that.
    ALL HAIL THE HADARI YAO!!!! NOW AGAIN THE ONE TRUE AND ONLY GODDESS OF THE X-MEN AS CLAREMONT INTENDED!!!!!

  12. #9207

    Default

    People seem to be more interested in Coates version of T'Challa than anything to do with Ororo these last few pages.
    Let the flames destroy all but that which is pure and true!

  13. #9208
    CBB 4 LIFE Mr MajestiK's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    London
    Posts
    8,212

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    The issue is not with the "images" and ideology.
    The issue is that T'Challa...who's bled and died for Wakanda, who has protected Wakanda, who knows Wakanda's entire history throughout the centuries and understands how it came to be (as per Marvel's canonical history) could ever be blind to slavery and the enslavement of others, regardless of the circumstances.
    That is some Cosmic level OOC/PIS characterisation from Coates.

    From day one Coates has deliberately ignored everything that T'Challa, Black Panther and the world of Wakanda is and has achieved and stood for, just so that he can push his "Black Man Something or the other" ideology...that has/had absolutely NOTHING to do with the characters he was given to write.
    I couldn't have said this any better than you.
    Enjoying the camraderie of friends and family is all that matters in the world.

    Mr MajestiK took a short hiatus and the Chaos Bringer was reborn.

  14. #9209
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    16,054

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by yogaflame View Post
    People seem to be more interested in Coates version of T'Challa than anything to do with Ororo these last few pages.
    he wrote ororo splendidly. did you read the issue?

    he also wrote him well. which is why I mentioned no one should have issue with how he was written.
    Last edited by butterflykyss; 12-02-2019 at 01:49 PM.
    ALL HAIL THE HADARI YAO!!!! NOW AGAIN THE ONE TRUE AND ONLY GODDESS OF THE X-MEN AS CLAREMONT INTENDED!!!!!

  15. #9210
    CBB 4 LIFE Mr MajestiK's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    London
    Posts
    8,212

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by terrancejameson View Post
    Lolol thatís not what was going on but this sure entertained me. Issa mess. My strong pushback against this domineering Ororo is where was this same energy when Priest did it? Priest had her voicing her opinions about his character and what it said to her. (Mind you, there are also countless references to Strum and Drang throughout S2 of Black Panther.) Hudlin had Storm check him away from Namor. She was forceful and without compromise. Why isnít she emasculating him there? McDuffie he her do it too? How about Liss? I donít see how this Ororo is different form any of other incarnations in previous volumes of Black Panther? I donít see whatís so wrong with seeking the love and council of close and personal friend.
    The difference between all the other writers whose take on Ororo and T'Challa's relationship and Coates, is that none of them wrote him as a clueless chump who had to be led around like a toddler.

    Your self admitted inability to acknowledge this particular distinction is fascinating.
    Enjoying the camraderie of friends and family is all that matters in the world.

    Mr MajestiK took a short hiatus and the Chaos Bringer was reborn.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •