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  1. #9226
    The Professional Marvell2100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    now when I answer your question I'm doing this based upon how I believe you to perceive his work (and not my own perception of it lol). I think you would prefer it to build upon some of the established work that preceded the events of Doomwar. Though I am sure you enjoyed some of what Hickman did with him I would wager you could forego a lot of that if it meant all of what was written doomwar forward was erased. I don't believe you to mind Ororo and Tchalla working together as one unit but I think you prefer seeing a tchalla that didnt rely so much on his wife and his other family and friends but looked to how he could resolve conflicts using his intellect and gifts.

    I do think the difference between our view of Coates is while I admit I love him primarily for what he has done for Ororo a lot of my understanding of wakanda came once tchalla/ororo wed. I thought hudlin was ok as a writer but Coates work is a lot more engaging and he appears to have put more thought into how his story is told. You have an awareness of BP that extends well beyond hudlin so there in lies the big difference.

    Nevertheless, there is not ONE thing that he has done that you see as an accurate portrayal of tchalla? what about hus interaction with ororo? nothing?
    And therein lies the difference. You look at the T'Challa through the eyes Storm. That's where you began.

    I've been reading about T'Challa since McGregor, some 30 years before they married. I've seen the up and downs, from the "Noble Negro" to the "most dangerous man alive" to the flawed King who would do anything to protect his country. And by flawed I mean the person who was so focused on being the Wakanda's greatest defender that he would do anything, break any rule, use anyone to further his goal. That man is fascinating. Sort of like a few other monarchs and a certain master of magnetism.

    His relationship with Storm should be as equals, not one lecturing the other, not tip-toeing around each other. They should be the power couple of Marvel. But they are mired in Real Housewives of ATL type isht. Boring. They should both speak their mind, call each other out as needed but enough with the constant needing to learn a lesson about each other.

    No one should dare challenge this couple and if you're coming, you better bring your family and their big boy pants. I want afro-futurism where they have a vision of the world, the universe and what it will take to make that vision happen. I don't want Game of Thrones, I want War of Kings and Queens.

    Won't happen with Coates. The only thing he can do for me is leave.

  2. #9227
    Extraordinary Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    the question I asked is relative to Storm. if you can pose your answer around that within this thread I would be most appreciative as I know there are some there that do not like her name to be mentioned lol.
    I didn't see T'Challa violently do anything to Storm in the scan you posted and for DW, he chose his nation. I'm not saying T'Challa can't be tricked or outsmarted. But blatant crap like what issue 18 showed is something you expect him to willingly fall for to further his goals. But we see him get told by someone who's known N'Jadaka the entire time he has been in power was him that he will be betrayed and he says he has a hard tome believing him becausr in the 616 Achebe is a crazy guy with a puppet on his hand, yet he trusts N'Jadaka is a benevolent ruler despite 616 N'Jadaka has tried successfully taken the thrown?? See how thst doesn't make sense? Ontop of T'Challa has dealt with racism alot, from liberating planets and calling out the inhumans to fighting the KKK abd experiencing racism himself first hand. He is not too privileged to see it. That's a bullisht line.

    I don't think Storm herself did anything it's the words she's been used for to say that's the issue. And frankly there wrong. Very wrong. Abd the issue just really solidifies how little research abd thought was put into this big reveal and how much Coates doesn't understand that T'Challa and Wakanda don't fit the agenda he is trying to push.

    It's very obvious by how much he has had to force into the story with retcons to make it work and i use work very loosely because everything Coates is doing goes against the mythos and what Lee and Kirby established. Pretty sad when two Jewish guys can understand and portray T'Challa and Wakanda as the important place and Character that their meant to be and Coates relegates it to the very thing they were tired of seeing when it came to Black people.

  3. #9228
    Fantastic Member GuiltyPleasure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvell2100 View Post
    And therein lies the difference. You look at the T'Challa through the eyes Storm. That's where you began.

    I've been reading about T'Challa since McGregor, some 30 years before they married. I've seen the up and downs, from the "Noble Negro" to the "most dangerous man alive" to the flawed King who would do anything to protect his country. And by flawed I mean the person who was so focused on being the Wakanda's greatest defender that he would do anything, break any rule, use anyone to further his goal. That man is fascinating. Sort of like a few other monarchs and a certain master of magnetism.

    His relationship with Storm should be as equals, not one lecturing the other, not tip-toeing around each other. They should be the power couple of Marvel. But they are mired in Real Housewives of ATL type isht. Boring. They should both speak their mind, call each other out as needed but enough with the constant needing to learn a lesson about each other.

    No one should dare challenge this couple and if you're coming, you better bring your family and their big boy pants. I want afro-futurism where they have a vision of the world, the universe and what it will take to make that vision happen. I don't want Game of Thrones, I want War of Kings and Queens.

    Won't happen with Coates. The only thing he can do for me is leave.
    I think for Ororo and T'Challa to get the level of development you described, which is excellent, BTW, they would need their own comic. This is what DC did when, for a time, they had New 52 Superman and Wonder Woman as a couple. They gave them a comic in which they both co-starred, which allowed their "Power Couple" relationship to be explored in-depth without taking up too many pages in their respective comics for the romantic pairing. As it stands, only the BP comic has spent much panel time on the relationship, although it does seem to be recognized in the X-books. I do think, if handled well, BP and Storm could carry a title together. Other couples have done it, at least for a while. Hell, even Black Canary and Green Arrow had a comic together a while back. It didn't last long, but it was given a shot. I think the same should be attempted with BP and Storm.

    As for Coates, and not having read most of his BP run, he seems to take a more loose "team" approach to BP than T'Challa as an island unto himself. I think this goes back to arguments I've read about whether the character of T'Challa is more superhero or monarch. Depending on which side a fan or writer falls, that could very well determine the types of stories told and how the character is envisioned and defined. With your 30 years of reading BP, I'm sure each writer approached the character from their unique lens--likely some interpretations more to your liking than others. That's kind of the way of things. And it definitely sucks if a current writer of a beloved character doesn't see or write a character the way you want them written.
    Last edited by GuiltyPleasure; 12-02-2019 at 07:10 PM.

  4. #9229
    Extraordinary Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuiltyPleasure View Post
    I think for Ororo and T'Challa to get the level of development you described, which is excellent, BTW, they would need their own comic. This is what DC did when, for a time, they had New 52 Superman and Wonder Woman as a couple. They gave them a comic in which they both co-starred, which allowed their "Power Couple" relationship to be explored in-depth without taking up too many pages in their respective comics for the romantic pairing. As it stands, only the BP comic has spent much panel time on the relationship, although it does seem to be recognized in the X-books. I do think, if handled well, BP and Storm could carry a title together. Other couples have done it, at least for a while. Hell, even Black Canary and Green Arrow had a comic together a while back. It didn't last long, but it was given a shot. I think the same should be attempted with BP and Storm.

    As for Coates, and not having read most of his BP run, he seems to take a more loose "team" approach to BP than T'Challa as an island unto himself. I think this goes back to arguments I've read about whether the character of T'Challa is more superhero or monarch. Depending on which side a fan or writer falls, that could very well determine the types of stories told and how the character is envisioned and defined. With your 30 years of reading BP, I'm sure each writer approached the character from their unique lens--likely some interpretations more to your liking than others. That's kind of the way of things. And it definitely sucks if a current writer of a beloved character doesn't see or write a character the way you want them written.
    Hudlin abd McDuffie doing the initiative with BP abd storm leading the FF was the closest we have gotten to that. Honestly the only way it could work now would be for Storm to transcend the X-Men like wolverine to escape getting constantly pulled back and any developments get torpedoed so she can become lightning lass again

  5. #9230
    Incredible Member Stormrocks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    Hudlin abd McDuffie doing the initiative with BP abd storm leading the FF was the closest we have gotten to that. Honestly the only way it could work now would be for Storm to transcend the X-Men like wolverine to escape getting constantly pulled back and any developments get torpedoed so she can become lightning lass again
    Marvel admitted to the bold. I'll try to find the old article, but when the divorce first happened, an editor basically said, the couple worked when they were leading the FF, but really weren't written well outside of that.

  6. #9231
    Astonishing Member stormphoenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    wait a minute? how do you understand BP fans? coates had tchalla defeat all his enemies alone and simultaneously ranging from doom to man-ape. he just got a little caught up in the achievement of his people which allowed him to be captured. what frustration do you understand???
    Easy, read their comments. You donít have to be a fan to understand where they are coming from in regards to Coates.
    Ororo Munroe(Bright Lady), Hadari Yao, The Cloud Runner, Goddess of the People.
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  7. #9232
    Casual Comics Reader/Fan Londo Bellian's Avatar
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    On page 616 now. Special milestone?

    A "Couple Title" for T'Challa and Ororo, even if only as a mini, sounds nice.
    Genkai nante nai (No limits), Zettai nante nai (No absolutes)

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  8. #9233
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvell2100 View Post
    And therein lies the difference. You look at the T'Challa through the eyes Storm. That's where you began.

    I've been reading about T'Challa since McGregor, some 30 years before they married. I've seen the up and downs, from the "Noble Negro" to the "most dangerous man alive" to the flawed King who would do anything to protect his country. And by flawed I mean the person who was so focused on being the Wakanda's greatest defender that he would do anything, break any rule, use anyone to further his goal. That man is fascinating. Sort of like a few other monarchs and a certain master of magnetism.

    His relationship with Storm should be as equals, not one lecturing the other, not tip-toeing around each other. They should be the power couple of Marvel. But they are mired in Real Housewives of ATL type isht. Boring. They should both speak their mind, call each other out as needed but enough with the constant needing to learn a lesson about each other.

    No one should dare challenge this couple and if you're coming, you better bring your family and their big boy pants. I want afro-futurism where they have a vision of the world, the universe and what it will take to make that vision happen. I don't want Game of Thrones, I want War of Kings and Queens.

    Won't happen with Coates. The only thing he can do for me is leave.
    1. understood in regards to your history with the character, which is really impressive. however, a lot of the complaints I saw around coates writing is that his support does everything yet in this issue we see him doing everything and being a badass on his. he defeated all worries to earn the respect of the galactic wakandans and was immortalized as a living legend. it wasnt storm, or nakia but tchalla.

    2. ororo since her early appearances in the 70s was preachy. if the idea is that she couldnt be sassy with tchalla or provide him counsel then you are asking for a big part of her personality to be neutered:



    nevertheless I didnt see their exchange as lecturing but her trying to encourage tchalla not to be so hard on himself for the things that transpired in galatic wakanda.

    to your last point though I would love that. marvell for the writer of the next tchalla/proto ongoing!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    I didn't see T'Challa violently do anything to Storm in the scan you posted and for DW, he chose his nation. I'm not saying T'Challa can't be tricked or outsmarted. But blatant crap like what issue 18 showed is something you expect him to willingly fall for to further his goals. But we see him get told by someone who's known N'Jadaka the entire time he has been in power was him that he will be betrayed and he says he has a hard tome believing him becausr in the 616 Achebe is a crazy guy with a puppet on his hand, yet he trusts N'Jadaka is a benevolent ruler despite 616 N'Jadaka has tried successfully taken the thrown?? See how thst doesn't make sense? Ontop of T'Challa has dealt with racism alot, from liberating planets and calling out the inhumans to fighting the KKK abd experiencing racism himself first hand. He is not too privileged to see it. That's a bullisht line.

    I don't think Storm herself did anything it's the words she's been used for to say that's the issue. And frankly there wrong. Very wrong. Abd the issue just really solidifies how little research abd thought was put into this big reveal and how much Coates doesn't understand that T'Challa and Wakanda don't fit the agenda he is trying to push.

    It's very obvious by how much he has had to force into the story with retcons to make it work and i use work very loosely because everything Coates is doing goes against the mythos and what Lee and Kirby established. Pretty sad when two Jewish guys can understand and portray T'Challa and Wakanda as the important place and Character that their meant to be and Coates relegates it to the very thing they were tired of seeing when it came to Black people.
    I put violently in quotes because it wasnt literally violent but the red text and his depiction shows he was angry. and I disagree with njadaka. dictators can be some of the most alluring and captivating to those around them. Hitler was even described as being a "charismatic leader."

    and I hear your but I simply dont agree. but I do hope that tchalla is written in a manner you like in the future. I understand your pain with how ororo has been written for years prior to coates.

    Quote Originally Posted by stormphoenix View Post
    Easy, read their comments. You donít have to be a fan to understand where they are coming from in regards to Coates.
    I have which is why the complaints of this issue doesnt make any sense. but you said you understand, what in this issue made you clearly understand exactly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Londo Bellian View Post
    On page 616 now. Special milestone?

    A "Couple Title" for T'Challa and Ororo, even if only as a mini, sounds nice.
    oooh I see what you did there lol 616!!!
    ALL HAIL THE HADARI YAO!!!! NOW AGAIN THE ONE TRUE AND ONLY GODDESS OF THE X-MEN AS CLAREMONT INTENDED!!!!!

  9. #9234
    The Professional Marvell2100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    1. understood in regards to your history with the character, which is really impressive. however, a lot of the complaints I saw around coates writing is that his support does everything yet in this issue we see him doing everything and being a badass on his. he defeated all worries to earn the respect of the galactic wakandans and was immortalized as a living legend. it wasnt storm, or nakia but tchalla.

    2. ororo since her early appearances in the 70s was preachy. if the idea is that she couldnt be sassy with tchalla or provide him counsel then you are asking for a big part of her personality to be neutered:
    Quote Originally Posted by Marvell2100 View Post
    And therein lies the difference. You look at the T'Challa through the eyes Storm. That's where you began.

    I've been reading about T'Challa since McGregor, some 30 years before they married. I've seen the up and downs, from the "Noble Negro" to the "most dangerous man alive" to the flawed King who would do anything to protect his country. And by flawed I mean the person who was so focused on being the Wakanda's greatest defender that he would do anything, break any rule, use anyone to further his goal. That man is fascinating. Sort of like a few other monarchs and a certain master of magnetism.

    His relationship with Storm should be as equals, not one lecturing the other, not tip-toeing around each other. They should be the power couple of Marvel. But they are mired in Real Housewives of ATL type isht. Boring. They should both speak their mind, call each other out as needed but enough with the constant needing to learn a lesson about each other.

    No one should dare challenge this couple and if you're coming, you better bring your family and their big boy pants. I want afro-futurism where they have a vision of the world, the universe and what it will take to make that vision happen. I don't want Game of Thrones, I want War of Kings and Queens.

    Won't happen with Coates. The only thing he can do for me is leave.
    See, this is where we continue to have issues. If you read my post carefully, you would see where I said "they" should not continue lecturing one another, "they" should speak their minds and call out each other as needed.

    Your first thought went to Storm should be sassy and provide him with counsel and neutering her character. Why is it that it doesn't go both ways?

    I treat them as equals, you only speak for Storm.


  10. #9235
    CBB 4 LIFE Mr MajestiK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormrocks View Post
    Marvel admitted to the bold. I'll try to find the old article, but when the divorce first happened, an editor basically said, the couple worked when they were leading the FF, but really weren't written well outside of that.
    Which editor?
    Enjoying the camraderie of friends and family is all that matters in the world.

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  11. #9236
    Fantastic Member Jalysia's Avatar
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    I liked it when the Storm thread was chill for a bit.

  12. #9237
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    Coates’ Storm is too provocative. Her chill gives the illusion of a category 5 hurricane and T’Challa rests secured in the eye of the storm.

  13. #9238
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvell2100 View Post
    See, this is where we continue to have issues. If you read my post carefully, you would see where I said "they" should not continue lecturing one another, "they" should speak their minds and call out each other as needed.

    Your first thought went to Storm should be sassy and provide him with counsel and neutering her character. Why is it that it doesn't go both ways?

    I treat them as equals, you only speak for Storm.

    I treated them individually in this situation because Ororo is canonically known for being preachy. Is Tchalla know for being the same? They can be equals while still having different personalities.

    Quote Originally Posted by terrancejameson View Post
    Coatesí Storm is too provocative. Her chill gives the illusion of a category 5 hurricane and TíChalla rests secured in the eye of the storm.
    yes I love this analogy.
    ALL HAIL THE HADARI YAO!!!! NOW AGAIN THE ONE TRUE AND ONLY GODDESS OF THE X-MEN AS CLAREMONT INTENDED!!!!!

  14. #9239
    The Professional Marvell2100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    I treated them individually in this situation because Ororo is canonically known for being preachy. Is Tchalla know for being the same? They can be equals while still having different personalities.
    You didn't treat them individually because you only spoke about Storm. You didn't talk about T'Challa's personality at all.

  15. #9240
    Judgement Awaits LordAllMIghty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    a somewhat lengthy discussion on Ororo's words in Xmen 1 about men and suicide bombs from a Jewish website. thoughts?

    https://www.jewishchronicle.org/2019...bombs-are-bad/

    and oan if none of you checked out Fearless you should. Ororo was truly shown as a powerhouse here. Not once was she dropped kicked by a street leveler so if you prefer books like that Fearless isnt for you:




    Storm showing off her ability to manipulate Earth?!?

    I'm calling it now..
    Last edited by LordAllMIghty; 12-03-2019 at 02:34 PM.
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