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  1. #9241
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr MajestiK View Post
    The difference between all the other writers whose take on Ororo and T'Challa's relationship and Coates, is that none of them wrote him as a clueless chump who had to be led around like a toddler.

    Your self admitted inability to acknowledge this particular distinction is fascinating.
    The whole premise of this post seems off to me. Iím not saying youíre wrong. I can see where youíre coming from. I just think our math is different. If Iím honest with myself, Storm is the one that was led around like a toddler. She had to be told that sheís a mutant on top of her godhead heritage. TíChalla did all the manipulating and scheming in S2. He knew exactly what was up. Ororo confirms it all at the end of #172. She herself tells us that TíChalla always knew. He has the answers even when he thinks he doesnít. He wanted to be 100% sure. He made an observation, tested his hypothesis and confirmed his prediction. Ororo was led around with the tidbits of information he offered to her. Thereís no way I could comfortably agree with the idea of TíChalla being led around like a child at all in S2. How, sway?

    And if weíre going to continue with this idea that Coatesí Storm is known for talking down to TíChalla, why arenít we taking ALL of what she says to him at face value? TíChalla is talking about a galactic Wakandan empire. Those are still HIS PEOPLE. He and Storm make multiple references this point. TíChalla is telling her how good his vision really is and yet he only saw the beauty on the surface of a Wakandan empire done the wrong way. Ororo follows up on his temporarily obscured line of sight with one of her own. She draws an explicit parallel between her surface level understanding of the African-American condition as she saw it. She had yet to realize she was a black girl from next door given who and what her daddy was.

  2. #9242
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordAllMIghty View Post
    Storm showing off her ability to manipulate Earth?!?

    I'm calling it now..
    Omg LAM please do NOT do this to me. I will take this and fun full effing tilt with it! I never thought about it this way and I fuckin screamed!

  3. #9243
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvell2100 View Post
    You didn't treat them individually because you only spoke about Storm. You didn't talk about T'Challa's personality at all.
    I can only speak to his personality from hudlin on up. I've read a couple of stories prior to it but I dare not profess to make a declarative statement about him without knowing his full history as you do. from what I've read tchalla isnt a preachy character; in fact I would argue he would forgo a lot of talking as he is a man of action and isnt always transparent to the things hes doing. they have totally different personalities so to complain about storm being preachy doesnt really gel with her character. I would agree though tchalla doesnt come off the type to communicate as such.

    Quote Originally Posted by LordAllMIghty View Post
    Storm showing off her ability to manipulate Earth?!?

    I'm calling it now..
    she already did it in priest run shen she creates the earthquakes remember ??
    ALL HAIL THE HADARI YAO!!!! NOW AGAIN THE ONE TRUE AND ONLY GODDESS OF THE X-MEN AS CLAREMONT INTENDED!!!!!

  4. #9244
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvell2100 View Post
    You didn't treat them individually because you only spoke about Storm. You didn't talk about T'Challa's personality at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by LordAllMIghty View Post
    Storm showing off her ability to manipulate Earth?!?

    I'm calling it now..
    Quote Originally Posted by terrancejameson View Post
    The whole premise of this post seems off to me. I’m not saying you’re wrong. I can see where you’re coming from. I just think our math is different. If I’m honest with myself, Storm is the one that was led around like a toddler. She had to be told that she’s a mutant on top of her godhead heritage. T’Challa did all the manipulating and scheming in S2. He knew exactly what was up. Ororo confirms it all at the end of #172. She herself tells us that T’Challa always knew. He has the answers even when he thinks he doesn’t. He wanted to be 100% sure. He made an observation, tested his hypothesis and confirmed his prediction. Ororo was led around with the tidbits of information he offered to her. There’s no way I could comfortably agree with the idea of T’Challa being led around like a child at all in S2. How, sway?

    And if we’re going to continue with this idea that Coates’ Storm is known for talking down to T’Challa, why aren’t we taking ALL of what she says to him at face value? T’Challa is talking about a galactic Wakandan empire. Those are still HIS PEOPLE. He and Storm make multiple references this point. T’Challa is telling her how good his vision really is and yet he only saw the beauty on the surface of a Wakandan empire done the wrong way. Ororo follows up on his temporarily obscured line of sight with one of her own. She draws an explicit parallel between her surface level understanding of the African-American condition as she saw it. She had yet to realize she was a black girl from next door given who and what her daddy was.
    This is a good point that I would like to expound just a bit on. Tchalla, even though he may have seen some signs, wanted to believe in the good that he knows Wakanda to be. His dream of wakanda is akin to the dream that America has sold black people for hundreds of years. It's the same difference in my view and Ororo being able to link this in the manner she did was again a highlight of this issue for me.
    ALL HAIL THE HADARI YAO!!!! NOW AGAIN THE ONE TRUE AND ONLY GODDESS OF THE X-MEN AS CLAREMONT INTENDED!!!!!

  5. #9245
    The Professional Marvell2100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    I can only speak to his personality from hudlin on up. I've read a couple of stories prior to it but I dare not profess to make a declarative statement about him without knowing his full history as you do. from what I've read tchalla isnt a preachy character; in fact I would argue he would forgo a lot of talking as he is a man of action and isnt always transparent to the things hes doing. they have totally different personalities so to complain about storm being preachy doesnt really gel with her character. I would agree though tchalla doesnt come off the type to communicate as such.
    Where has anyone complained that Storm was preachy?

    Again, you have history and knowledge of Storm. I have history and knowledge of Storm too but my history with T'Challa is greater.

    I put the onus on both and I don't put the onus or bias against one or the other in their relationship. They both have ownership and responsibility

  6. #9246
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvell2100 View Post
    Where has anyone complained that Storm was preachy?

    Again, you have history and knowledge of Storm. I have history and knowledge of Storm too but my history with T'Challa is greater.

    I put the onus on both and I don't put the onus or bias against one or the other in their relationship. They both have ownership and responsibility
    you mentioned they shouldnt lecture each other but my point was that Ororo always has been a lecturer or preachy. I didnt know enough about tchalla to say if he is a lecturer or not which is why I didnt comment on it; however, based upon my readings of him he doesnt come off as the preachy pr lecturing type.

    and agreed they do both have responsibility but coates captured Ororo's voice perfectly in how she engaged with tchalla. her personality is like the weather: one minute she can be soothing and nurturing with her warmth and the next she can be cold and more fierce than a hurricane. nevertheless, maybe we loss each other but we are talking about their interaction in the latest issue of BP yes? how was she lecturing tchalla? to me it came across she was bestowing upon him the wisdom she has learned of being an African American woman in America in hopes that he wouldnt be so hard on himself about his reluctance to see the truth about the galatic wakandan empire.
    Last edited by butterflykyss; 12-03-2019 at 04:10 PM.
    ALL HAIL THE HADARI YAO!!!! NOW AGAIN THE ONE TRUE AND ONLY GODDESS OF THE X-MEN AS CLAREMONT INTENDED!!!!!

  7. #9247
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    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    This is a good point that I would like to expound just a bit on. Tchalla, even though he may have seen some signs, wanted to believe in the good that he knows Wakanda to be. His dream of wakanda is akin to the dream that America has sold black people for hundreds of years. It's the same difference in my view and Ororo being able to link this in the manner she did was again a highlight of this issue for me.
    That was my understanding as well. The more I read it the more I’m certain that T’Challa was consumed with the scale and scope of a Wakandan empire spanning five galaxies. It’s T’Challa’s gift in memory of his biological mother. It’s not hard for me to recognize that kind of love when I think about my relationship with my own mother. T’Challa lost perspective for a minute and miscalculated how a band of Wakandan astronauts turned into a five galaxy empire over the course of two thousand years.

    I love the nuance to Storm’s perspective as an African-American/Kenyan woman with a mutant gene and goddess heritage. While T’Challa is mulling over his blindspot is regards to his WAKANDAN PEOPLE juxtaposed against the grandiose an empire to worship Bast. Coates had the guts to make Ororo acknowledge her blindspot to other African-Americans weighed against the idea of the AmericaN empire. Storm specifically mentions AA’s because she and T’Challa are both reflecting on their blinders in regard to THEIRMpeople.

  8. #9248
    Extraordinary Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    1. understood in regards to your history with the character, which is really impressive. however, a lot of the complaints I saw around coates writing is that his support does everything yet in this issue we see him doing everything and being a badass on his. he defeated all worries to earn the respect of the galactic wakandans and was immortalized as a living legend. it wasnt storm, or nakia but tchalla.

    2. ororo since her early appearances in the 70s was preachy. if the idea is that she couldnt be sassy with tchalla or provide him counsel then you are asking for a big part of her personality to be neutered:



    nevertheless I didnt see their exchange as lecturing but her trying to encourage tchalla not to be so hard on himself for the things that transpired in galatic wakanda.

    to your last point though I would love that. marvell for the writer of the next tchalla/proto ongoing!!



    I put violently in quotes because it wasnt literally violent but the red text and his depiction shows he was angry. and I disagree with njadaka. dictators can be some of the most alluring and captivating to those around them. Hitler was even described as being a "charismatic leader."

    and I hear your but I simply dont agree. but I do hope that tchalla is written in a manner you like in the future. I understand your pain with how ororo has been written for years prior to coates.



    I have which is why the complaints of this issue doesnt make any sense. but you said you understand, what in this issue made you clearly understand exactly?



    oooh I see what you did there lol 616!!!
    Except there is none of that charisma your claiming shown. Your assuming. T'Challa tells Achebe he has a hard time believing him because the version of Achebe he knows is a mad man. Yet, in the same vein he trusts that N'Jadaka won't betray him like Achebe said despite the fact that the version he knows has tried for the thrown snd took the title of BP from him before? See how thst logic doesn't work?

    You don't have to agree but I'm pointing out valid points backed by facts for why Coates didn't do research an the words used in this issue don't match up to what's been established in the mythos precoates.

    Also you keep mentioning that he defeated a his enemies. Did you see that fight? It was the equivalence of an old lady fighting off teenage attackers by swinging around her purse. That fight was so lazy and uninspired that it was clear Coates put it in because he had to, like it was an afterthought and part of a check list before he could get into what he really wanted which was this ridiculous, contradictory talking issue about how dumb he had to make T'Challa to be captured

    Anyway, people are probably getting sick of all this talk of T'Challa in storms thread so ima stop here. But thisnwas not a good issue. Infact it arguably the worst issue Coates had written about T'Challa of all seasons
    Last edited by Ezyo1000; 12-03-2019 at 04:48 PM.

  9. #9249
    Incredible Member Stormrocks's Avatar
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    Was this article posted here: https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/marvel...l-in-marauders

    I found this part interesting and relevant to this thread:

    As Captain Kate Pryde moves closer to working with the Hellfire Club in Issue 2 of Marauders this week, Duggan says he'll be expanding on the dynamics of the burgeoning mutant corporation. Additionally, he says the expanding cast of characters (which now includes Bishop) is something he's looking forward to having fun with, especially Storm.

    "Storm's an interesting one; she has very personal reasons for beginning this journey," he says. "She has some very big stories on the horizon both in the X-world and beyond."

  10. #9250
    The Professional Marvell2100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormrocks View Post
    Was this article posted here: https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/marvel...l-in-marauders

    I found this part interesting and relevant to this thread:

    As Captain Kate Pryde moves closer to working with the Hellfire Club in Issue 2 of Marauders this week, Duggan says he'll be expanding on the dynamics of the burgeoning mutant corporation. Additionally, he says the expanding cast of characters (which now includes Bishop) is something he's looking forward to having fun with, especially Storm.

    "Storm's an interesting one; she has very personal reasons for beginning this journey," he says. "She has some very big stories on the horizon both in the X-world and beyond."
    Now I'm scared.

  11. #9251
    Astonishing Member Cville's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    I think you make a lot of fair points but you are telling me that since 1966 when this character was creates he has never been outsmarted or never been susceptible to the flaws that make him a man? I recall how he "violently" responded to Ororo helping him when he was fighting Doom:

    Attachment 89879

    Or how he hesitated for approximately 5 seconds when deciding between vibranium or saving his wife's life:



    Do you think Tchalla as you described him would respond in the manner in which he did above? Why would a man as experienced in the world and as intelligent be intimidated by his wife helping him? Why would he hesitate to save his wife? The answer is he is human and flawed. That is what Coates is showing that he isnt perfect despite all his strengths.
    I would say yes. Storm hit Doom with lightning earlier and he said nothing. Doom made a chauvinistic comment earlier and Tchalla responded. The scene you posted was after Tchalla said he'd handle Doom. Storm broke man law. lol

    For the other scene, he'd do the same. If it comes between a choice of an individual and Wakanda, he'll choose Wakanda. Klaw threated to kill his mom and he didn't acquiesce.

  12. #9252
    Astonishing Member Cville's Avatar
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    I havnt' read all the post, but Tchalla should have noticed. It be different if the slavery was limited to the far reaches of the empire and only in specific sections for labor. But when he has one waiting on him and he doesn't even talk to her its a problem. When Achebe told him about it, Tchalla should at least look into it, but Coates treated him like he's lived in a palace his entire life.

    The worst part is he didn't he discover it and challenge it. He just got back shot for seemingly no reason beside jealousy. Unless I missed a few lines somewhere.
    Last edited by Cville; 12-03-2019 at 05:58 PM.

  13. #9253
    Fantastic Member GuiltyPleasure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvell2100 View Post
    Now I'm scared.
    LOL. Why? What do you think he has planned for her?

  14. #9254
    Judgement Awaits LordAllMIghty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuiltyPleasure View Post
    LOL. Why? What do you think he has planned for her?
    Writers have a tendency to let us down when they say stuff like that.



    As a matter of fact, Jonathan Maberry (the guy who wrote the pic above), was the first writer I remember saying Storm was gonna do something amazing in Doomwars. We waited 6 issues for Storm to create a tornado to destroy some robots.

    So you can see why some of us are in the "Wait and See" category.
    Last edited by LordAllMIghty; 12-03-2019 at 07:43 PM.
    I've seen your end and it starts with you challenging me.

  15. #9255
    Fantastic Member GuiltyPleasure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordAllMIghty View Post
    Writers have a tendency to let us down when they say stuff like that.



    As a of fact, Jonathan Maberry (the guy who wrote the pic above), was the first writer I remember saying Storm was gonna do something amazing in Doomwars. We waited 6 issues for Storm to create a tornado to destroy some robots.

    So you can see why some of us are in the "Wait and See" category.
    Oh, I have no problem with taking a wait and see approach. I wasn't a fan of this Mayberry story, for many different reasons. It had potential but didn't live up to anything I wanted to read about Storm, T'Challa, and Doom.

    The art was really good, though. T'Challa was straight up diesel in this arc. I don't think I've seen him drawn so big and muscular since. He was really a physically imposing force here.

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