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  1. #6286
    The Professional Marvell2100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    Jean is an experienced telepath though who had been an xmen fighting against villains such as magneto, juggernaut, etc., well before Ororo came onto the scene. So for Ororo to have those issues I understand but Jean at that point shouldnt have as she was not a novice. I actually thought the "ultimate sin" statement were words she used but that was incorrect. She only called it betrayal. That said, you are right Ororo was forgiving of Jean and always has been, so I do believe Ororo has been a true friend to Jean. However, I think there are enough instances from canon now especially with the release of marvel 1001 that demonstrate Jean hasnt always been the best friend she could have been towards Ororo.

    And you're absolutely right about Emma. Emma's aggressions towards Ororo by far outweighs anything Jean has done with the exception of I would argue od the dark Phoenix scans. To think Ororo's best friend harbors racist ideas about her at the core of her being is quite concerning and sad imho.
    There really should have been a conversation between Jean and Ororo about all of these incidents. It was all swept under the rug too easily.

  2. #6287
    Extraordinary Member stormphoenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ororo101 View Post
    I don’t happen to agree with one of these assessments of Jean actually, Kyss. Granted they happen to be my favorite friendship in the MU so bias might be implicated but a lot of my views on the matters align with Jwatson.

    1) Jean is only “judging” Ororo by the times and society in which they abide, knowing full well that a naked woman especially of color walking around NYC in the 1970’s would not be accepted and would most likely cause adverse and perhaps violent reactions from the public and probably law enforcement as well. She even says as much by admitting “society wasn’t ready for such self-possession”. And honestly if you turned around to a flash of lightning followed by your friend’s sudden stark body in front of you unexpectedly, wouldn’t you spit out your coffee?

    And I don’t think it was a lame excuse at all for Jean to point out that Ororo’s mind was screaming with trauma at the thought of going down into that subway station. We all remember how crippling Ororo’s claustrophobia was for her in those early days and we’ve also been told many times by countless other telepaths that the trick for them is not reading minds but shutting them out when undesired. Amongst the general public entering the subway calmly, Ororo’s phobia and the cause of it must have seemed like someone was screaming all of a sudden in a crowd of previously normal tones that we as people usually ignore and don’t draw our attention. I don’t think it’s fair to judge Jean for “an ultimate violation” when she directly apologized after Ororo put the whup up on her and explicitly explained that it was not her intention to pry. She certainly wouldn’t let it happen again lol.

    2) This one is on Jason Wyngarde’s doing to me. It was his undue influence that was purposefully corrupting Jean’s psyche to more malicious and malevolent tendencies and his initial psychic tinkering that introduced the Colonial time period and world into Jean’s mind. At that point she was in between his colonial illusions and the verge of Dark Phoenix herself so I don’t think there was much room for Jean’s own presence and psyche to dictate that now highly off color slave scene.

    3) I think everyone, Jean, Storm, and X-men fans alike, that have come across this panel has unanimously agreed that it was bogus to the extreme, extremely ooc sounding for Jean, and a really dumb and unnecessary addition to a comic with no actual significance or purpose. I’m going to ignore it because to me it’s just that irrelevant and what appears to me to be the product of a writer who just doesn’t like Storm themselves.

    4) Lastly, while she could’ve handled that last one more subtly, it was Forge who was acting like a grown ass man-child here and it was completely unfair of him to attack her with a question like that, to the point of physically shaking her. He’s lucky she didn’t mind bolt TF out of him for that bs. She was absolutely right in saying it was not her place to express her friends true feelings about anyone she’s interested in and Forge didn’t deserve Ororo if he couldn’t grow TF up and wait for her own, authentic response to him. Thank God he did get butthurt for no reason and act a fool though because that was such a dodged bullet for Ororo, I’m almost grateful. Screw him.

    The reason why I maybe tend to lean towards giving Jean the benefit of the doubt on this interpretational instances is because everything else we’ve been shown/told of them over the last 45 years has lent to the belief that Ororo truly is Jean’s best friend and closest confidant outside of Cyclops. Going so far as to refer to each other as sisters over the years. I could post at least 15 counter showings of instances where they love, friendship, and loyalty shine through undoubtedly. Jean would never let someone mess with Ororo which we saw as recently as her all but threatening Trinary in X-men Red when she offered to take Ororo out and vice versa with Ororo bodying Emma against a wall when she dared to threaten Jean. Let’s also not forget that Jean is the only other person alive, T’challa included(besides her grandparents obviously) who had the opportunity to meet Ororo’s parents when she went into the the “afterlife” to try and save her. Something Ororo wouldn’t share with anyone but her closest and most trusted friend. We have so many beautiful storylines that positively portray these omega level besties that I would never want to tarnish that without proper cause. Jean has done a lot of questionable things in her life in general, her relationship with Ororo being one thing that I would hate to demonize. I never want these two to grow apart or come to odds, it would honestly break my heart.

    Attachment 88015

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    To this day seeing Jean meet Ororo’s parents and having them thank her for being such a good friend to their baby when they couldn’t be there for her immediately makes me tear up. Perhaps one of my all time favorite Jean-Ororo moments because it is beyond beautiful.
    Jesus Christ User: Ororo comes up with the Facts. And shutting shit down.....
    Last edited by stormphoenix; 10-07-2019 at 02:00 PM.
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  3. #6288
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvell2100 View Post
    If a writer is not adept at writing about social issues, then why are they writing X-Men?

    I don't need to be a woman to know that domestic violence is wrong. I don't need to be LGTBQ to know that gender bias is wrong. I don't need to be shot to know that a bullet can hurt or kill me.

    If an X-writer is uncomfortable writing about it, then they need to get out the way.

    And Google is no one's friend. It doesn't care about you one way or another.
    Going by your beliefs:

    1: Claremont should have never been given the opportunity to write X-Men because for all intents and purposes...he was not adept at writing about social issues (especially the ones of which you speak). In his critically lauded, decades-long run(s), he wrote grand super-heroic tales that was loosely based on and very rarely included real-life social issues. By that same token, Hudlin injected some social issues into his stories but I would not say he was particularly adept at doing so...objectively speaking.

    2: We ALL know those things/issues are wrong. Readers and Writers alike. The trick would be writers presenting those issues in-story in such a way that ALL readers can understand and appreciate...and THAT is never going to happen (just look at HoX/PoX...the closest a writer has ever gotten to a real-world sensibility on the treatment of "minorities" and the critique is divisive on so many levels. And...if WE already know that these things are wrong...then why is it so very important for a fictional character to verbally express that in panel/i story when she herself has already shown her beliefs to be morally sound?

    3: Why would X-Writers (writers in general) write about something they are not familiar with, uncomfortable with or even, not interested in (barring the necessity of doing extensive and in-depth research)...especially when they believe they have better, more interesting stories to tell? (see Claremont)

    4: I've searched on google for books and music which I would not have been aware existed and available so...he's been a good acquaintance, at least to me.

    Maybe...if those are the stories/themes you are interested in...then perhaps you should consider writing your own characters and stories. And try your luck at any of the numerous Publishers, if it truly means that much to you.
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  4. #6289
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    We're still on this gag panel of Jean Grey? Jean has been one of Ororo's best friends for aeons. I'm not pressed about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    Going by your beliefs:

    1: Claremont should have never been given the opportunity to write X-Men because for all intents and purposes...he was not adept at writing about social issues (especially the ones of which you speak). In his critically lauded, decades-long run(s), he wrote grand super-heroic tales that was loosely based on and very rarely included real-life social issues. By that same token, Hudlin injected some social issues into his stories but I would not say he was particularly adept at doing so...objectively speaking.

    2: We ALL know those things/issues are wrong. Readers and Writers alike. The trick would be writers presenting those issues in-story in such a way that ALL readers can understand and appreciate...and THAT is never going to happen (just look at HoX/PoX...the closest a writer has ever gotten to a real-world sensibility on the treatment of "minorities" and the critique is divisive on so many levels. And...if WE already know that these things are wrong...then why is it so very important for a fictional character to verbally express that in panel/i story when she herself has already shown her beliefs to be morally sound?

    3: Why would X-Writers (writers in general) write about something they are not familiar with, uncomfortable with or even, not interested in (barring the necessity of doing extensive and in-depth research)...especially when they believe they have better, more interesting stories to tell? (see Claremont)

    4: I've searched on google for books and music which I would not have been aware existed and available so...he's been a good acquaintance, at least to me.

    Maybe...if those are the stories/themes you are interested in...then perhaps you should consider writing your own characters and stories. And try your luck at any of the numerous Publishers, if it truly means that much to you.
    Apparently it has a very strong effect on you. I'm also genuinely happy that you and Google are BFFs. Also, Google is a he? How do you know?

    If any X-writer is writing about persecution, prejudice or bias then I fail to see how they are so uncomfortable with the topic. Perhaps they should do an evaluation on why they believe they are suited to write a title that has it's basis in the persecution and murder of people because they are different if they are so ill-adept at it.

    Maybe your friend Google can help.

  6. #6291
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    Some things (like Jean imagining Ororo as a slave) could have some interesting implications, but I don’t blame writers in the present for wanting to leave them alone. There’s been years of stories published for the X-Men, OOC things are bound to happen. Either a future writer sees a poorly written scene and wants to flip it into something interesting or they decide “I’m just gonna pretend that didn’t happen”. Especially the Jean thing because I don’t see many ways that could be addressed without making either character look bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chief12d View Post
    Some things (like Jean imagining Ororo as a slave) could have some interesting implications, but I don’t blame writers in the present for wanting to leave them alone. There’s been years of stories published for the X-Men, OOC things are bound to happen. Either a future writer sees a poorly written scene and wants to flip it into something interesting or they decide “I’m just gonna pretend that didn’t happen”. Especially the Jean thing because I don’t see many ways that could be addressed without making either character look bad.
    The only way would be for Mastermind's own personal views to have influenced Jeans'.

  8. #6293
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    About the slave thing. I just have a hard time blaming Jean for that personally. I know i personally have had a lot of dark thoughts that i would never act on in my right mind. Perhaps claremont was implying no matter how close a white person is, especially at that time to a person of color those institutionalized feelings are there and sometimes buried very very deep, so deep we don't even know they exist and as such that's why the elephant in the room has to be addressed. But i can't say if someone unlocked my darkest thoughts and uncaged my moral cage what i would say about people who i thought were my friends. I don't know what hidden thoughts or emotions or anger i may feel towards a person when i didn't think i felt much of anything at all.

    If there were hints of Jean being racist towards Ororo or seeing her as less than that would completely change my thoughts on the situation but one instance when ones hidden repressed desires and feelings are brought to the forefront makes it hard. I would hope if i was in Storm's shoes i could understand it but there would definitely be a conversation to see where that might have come from. It felt more meta than Jean herself to me.

    As for the Marvel 1002, that's the same outfit Jean had on when Storm and Jean found out each other were alive so she definitely showed she cared during that time. That's the inferno/ x-factor costume.
    I'm not blaming Jean for her dark thoughts but I can't deny that it turns me off to know that Jean ever held such ideals and thoughts even if they were brought to the surface by way of Mastermind. But I think you do make a fair point. Even still, wouldn't it have been nice if Ororo and Jean had a heart to heart about where those thoughts came from instead of moving forward as if they never happened? It's one thing to have dark thoughts but if they come to the surface that manifests beyond yourself and impacts another being it should at least be addressed.

    I understand not acknowledging this based upon it happening once in time but I'm a bit more less forgiving especially when it comes to the issue of race. OAN: A Jean fan did post additional instances that seemed questionable relative to Jean showing racist attitudes towards black people. I think those instances could be debatable but there are at least other moments in the eyes of Jean fans where she has done questionable things against black people.

    Lastly, that was why that image was even more interesting but apparently Jean had enough of Ororo despite her initial feelings upon finding out they both were alive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marvell2100 View Post
    There really should have been a conversation between Jean and Ororo about all of these incidents. It was all swept under the rug too easily.
    Agreed. A lot of these things I happened upon by simply reading some of the older stories but had I not I would have had this less than accurate opinion that they have been the best of friends. I understand that more often than not people would view them as the best of buds; however, I couldnt imagine a friend of mine behaving in such ways and me not, at minimum, having the need to discuss what occurred. To simply sweep it under the rug doesnt make it right for me as an Ororo fan.

    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    We're still on this gag panel of Jean Grey? Jean has been one of Ororo's best friends for aeons. I'm not pressed about it.
    how was it a gag panel? and yes they have been but it doesnt mean that she has been the best friend should could be to ororo.

    Quote Originally Posted by chief12d View Post
    Some things (like Jean imagining Ororo as a slave) could have some interesting implications, but I donít blame writers in the present for wanting to leave them alone. Thereís been years of stories published for the X-Men, OOC things are bound to happen. Either a future writer sees a poorly written scene and wants to flip it into something interesting or they decide ďIím just gonna pretend that didnít happenĒ. Especially the Jean thing because I donít see many ways that could be addressed without making either character look bad.
    What implications do you think there could be? I think what Marvel 1001 - or 1002 I dont remember now - revealed is that there has been some animosity that Jean has harbored against Ororo for whatever reason. What the reasons are one cannot say but there is enough instances where one could I think argue she hasnt been the best friend to Ororo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marvell2100 View Post
    The only way would be for Mastermind's own personal views to have influenced Jeans'.
    Which Mastermind already mentioned he didnt do. Those were all Jean's desires.
    ALL HAIL THE HADARI YAO!!!! NOW AGAIN THE ONE TRUE AND ONLY GODDESS OF THE X-MEN AS CLAREMONT INTENDED!!!!!

  9. #6294
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    Oh, I meant to mention that I bought POX #5 and HOX #6, the first main X-books I've bought in some years, over 15 to be exact.

    I'm intrigued by these events.

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    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvell2100 View Post
    Oh, I meant to mention that I bought POX #5 and HOX #6, the first main X-books I've bought in some years, over 15 to be exact.

    I'm intrigued by these events.
    yea I will admit I wasn't particularly sure I would like what Hickman was doing. I thought it was going to be s reboot of the xmen; however, the pox/hox has been so well written. it definitely reinvigorated my interest in the franchise. I hope it continues throughout all the books moving forward and I also we good characterization for ororo. time will tell.
    ALL HAIL THE HADARI YAO!!!! NOW AGAIN THE ONE TRUE AND ONLY GODDESS OF THE X-MEN AS CLAREMONT INTENDED!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    yea I will admit I wasn't particularly sure I would like what Hickman was doing. I thought it was going to be s reboot of the xmen; however, the pox/hox has been so well written. it definitely reinvigorated my interest in the franchise. I hope it continues throughout all the books moving forward and I also we good characterization for ororo. time will tell.
    I'm looking at everything going on and say, "what can possibly go wrong?", lol.

    This is ripe for some major frakkery! And I'm very positive that Storm will emerge as the one the others will look to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvell2100 View Post
    If a writer is not adept at writing about social issues, then why are they writing X-Men?

    How much backlash lead by Gators and folks who have not touched a Marvel book since Star Trek The Next Generation left the air threw out about "social issues" in stories? That used POC or LGBTQ or women? Some that were NOT social issue stories?

    Yet when you substitute those POC for something like mutants-attitudes change.

    It's easier to say Synch got beat up for being a mutant in Generation X #38 (maybe that issue but it was during Larry Hama's run) by racists.
    Mind you those racists saw the rest of the Gen X kids run by them through a portal. Jubliee & Angelo were in that group.

    Yet Synch shows up and they were ready to throw hands on him. No FEAR whatsoever. A black male by himself is open season. Never mind he was in uniform like the others that MIGHT hint he could have powers.

    Rocket Raccoon's LAST solo had commentary about illegal aliens and immigration. Not one fit was thrown.

    The X-Men have been walking social commentary for YEARS. The issue has been POC have never been used as the mouth pieces.

    ANd one last thing

    If an X-writer is uncomfortable writing about it, then they need to get out the way.
    In Devaishwarya's defense. We do have an example of a writer NOT liking something and still did the book.

    He did not care for the lead yet if you read the book-you could not tell. It became that character's longest solo run.
    That character has gone without a solo for 5 out of the 21 years since that run.
    Storm calls him "Beloved." Everyone else calls him Black Panther.
    That writer was Christopher Priest.

  13. #6298
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    How much backlash lead by Gators and folks who have not touched a Marvel book since Star Trek The Next Generation left the air threw out about "social issues" in stories? That used POC or LGBTQ or women? Some that were NOT social issue stories?

    Yet when you substitute those POC for something like mutants-attitudes change.

    It's easier to say Synch got beat up for being a mutant in Generation X #38 (maybe that issue but it was during Larry Hama's run) by racists.
    Mind you those racists saw the rest of the Gen X kids run by them through a portal. Jubliee & Angelo were in that group.

    Yet Synch shows up and they were ready to throw hands on him. No FEAR whatsoever. A black male by himself is open season. Never mind he was in uniform like the others that MIGHT hint he could have powers.

    Rocket Raccoon's LAST solo had commentary about illegal aliens and immigration. Not one fit was thrown.

    The X-Men have been walking social commentary for YEARS. The issue has been POC have never been used as the mouth pieces.

    ANd one last thing



    In Devaishwarya's defense. We do have an example of a writer NOT liking something and still did the book.

    He did not care for the lead yet if you read the book-you could not tell. It became that character's longest solo run.
    That character has gone without a solo for 5 out of the 21 years since that run.
    Storm calls him "Beloved." Everyone else calls him Black Panther.
    That writer was Christopher Priest.
    Because Priest did what a professional writer is supposed to do and did not shy away from writing about social issues.

    He wasn't afraid to broach the topic

  14. #6299
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvell2100 View Post
    I'm looking at everything going on and say, "what can possibly go wrong?", lol.

    This is ripe for some major frakkery! And I'm very positive that Storm will emerge as the one the others will look to.
    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    How much backlash lead by Gators and folks who have not touched a Marvel book since Star Trek The Next Generation left the air threw out about "social issues" in stories? That used POC or LGBTQ or women? Some that were NOT social issue stories?

    Yet when you substitute those POC for something like mutants-attitudes change.

    It's easier to say Synch got beat up for being a mutant in Generation X #38 (maybe that issue but it was during Larry Hama's run) by racists.
    Mind you those racists saw the rest of the Gen X kids run by them through a portal. Jubliee & Angelo were in that group.

    Yet Synch shows up and they were ready to throw hands on him. No FEAR whatsoever. A black male by himself is open season. Never mind he was in uniform like the others that MIGHT hint he could have powers.

    Rocket Raccoon's LAST solo had commentary about illegal aliens and immigration. Not one fit was thrown.

    The X-Men have been walking social commentary for YEARS. The issue has been POC have never been used as the mouth pieces.

    ANd one last thing



    In Devaishwarya's defense. We do have an example of a writer NOT liking something and still did the book.

    He did not care for the lead yet if you read the book-you could not tell. It became that character's longest solo run.
    That character has gone without a solo for 5 out of the 21 years since that run.
    Storm calls him "Beloved." Everyone else calls him Black Panther.
    That writer was Christopher Priest.
    so long as people are not reminded of the bigotry that exists in their reality it's ok. its why storm can be with all sorts of white men and aliens yet the moment she is shown around black people its forced.
    ALL HAIL THE HADARI YAO!!!! NOW AGAIN THE ONE TRUE AND ONLY GODDESS OF THE X-MEN AS CLAREMONT INTENDED!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    We're still on this gag panel of Jean Grey? Jean has been one of Ororo's best friends for aeons. I'm not pressed about it.
    Apparently we are. I don't know how many examples we need to put up that Jean is Storm's Best Friend LOL...
    Ororo Munroe(Bright Lady), Hadari Yao, The Cloud Runner, Goddess of the People.
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