Ororo Munroe: Storm Appreciation 2019

[Marvell2100]

so long as people are not reminded of the bigotry that exists in their reality it's ok. its why storm can be with all sorts of white men and aliens yet the moment she is shown around black people its forced.

Methinks thou hast dropped yon truth bomb amongst the denizens of Stormland.

Imperious 'Ro!!!

[butterflykyss]

Methinks thou hast dropped yon truth bomb amongst the denizens of Stormland.

Imperious 'Ro!!!

why thank you very much. it's time to call out this ish for what it is. lol

[jwatson]

I'm not blaming Jean for her dark thoughts but I can't deny that it turns me off to know that Jean ever held such ideals and thoughts even if they were brought to the surface by way of Mastermind. But I think you do make a fair point. Even still, wouldn't it have been nice if Ororo and Jean had a heart to heart about where those thoughts came from instead of moving forward as if they never happened? It's one thing to have dark thoughts but if they come to the surface that manifests beyond yourself and impacts another being it should at least be addressed.

I understand not acknowledging this based upon it happening once in time but I'm a bit more less forgiving especially when it comes to the issue of race. OAN: A Jean fan did post additional instances that seemed questionable relative to Jean showing racist attitudes towards black people. I think those instances could be debatable but there are at least other moments in the eyes of Jean fans where she has done questionable things against black people.

Lastly, that was why that image was even more interesting but apparently Jean had enough of Ororo despite her initial feelings upon finding out they both were alive.



Agreed. A lot of these things I happened upon by simply reading some of the older stories but had I not I would have had this less than accurate opinion that they have been the best of friends. I understand that more often than not people would view them as the best of buds; however, I couldnt imagine a friend of mine behaving in such ways and me not, at minimum, having the need to discuss what occurred. To simply sweep it under the rug doesnt make it right for me as an Ororo fan.



how was it a gag panel? and yes they have been but it doesnt mean that she has been the best friend should could be to ororo.



What implications do you think there could be? I think what Marvel 1001 - or 1002 I dont remember now - revealed is that there has been some animosity that Jean has harbored against Ororo for whatever reason. What the reasons are one cannot say but there is enough instances where one could I think argue she hasnt been the best friend to Ororo.



Which Mastermind already mentioned he didnt do. Those were all Jean's desires.

I'm still ok with it. I can see how it may bother some and i get that but it doesn't bother me. Should there have been a conversation about it? Yes. Do i expect or need there to be a conversation about it decades later? No. But then what's not to say something happen off panel. Personally i'm not really interesred in combing over every piece of wrong a character has done to another. I feel what i feel based on the story happening in front of me i guess though speculating on the reason for things of past is always fun. Though i wouldn't call into question their friend status over it at the end of the day because as observers who are only seeing the brief moments in these characters existence to get deep about it, all we have to go in is what the characters say and the writers present and they are presented as best friends "sisters" and as one of ten siblings i believe it. But i get those who don't.

[Strong Girl Daken]

On the topic of Storm and Jean, a lot of critical race theorists and scholars on race would argue that racism operates unconsciously in a white supremacist society like the United States. Jean represses her racism like any other white person trying not to be racist while constantly indoctrinated into white supremacy, which isn't something like the KKK but a society in which white people benefit the most from material and representational realities. Put any other settler-colonial white North American in that 17th century setting and fulfill their unconscious desires (freeing them from the work they've done to repress what is honestly evil) and they would view Storm similar to Jean. Jean's fantasy isn't specific to Jean, unless you think Jean's unconscious bias there is unique to her and not, say Cyclops, Xavier, society etc.

[butterflykyss]

I'm still ok with it. I can see how it may bother some and i get that but it doesn't bother me. Should there have been a conversation about it? Yes. Do i expect or need there to be a conversation about it decades later? No. But then what's not to say something happen off panel. Personally i'm not really interesred in combing over every piece of wrong a character has done to another. I feel what i feel based on the story happening in front of me i guess though speculating on the reason for things of past is always fun. Though i wouldn't call into question their friend status over it at the end of the day because as observers who are only seeing the brief moments in these characters existence to get deep about it, all we have to go in is what the characters say and the writers present and they are presented as best friends "sisters" and as one of ten siblings i believe it. But i get those who don't.

This is fair assessment. I'm always curious to see how others view certain encounters that occur in canon. As I admitted earlier, I have my biases but a lot of that are more a reflection of the xoffices and not necessarily because of Jean. However, as you stated, it's hard for me to ignore things of race especially to this level when there has not been at least one substantive conversation post that moment. I mean at minimum an apology would have been nice to see. But I understand your point as well and I think most readers than not would agree with you.

On the topic of Storm and Jean, a lot of critical race theorists and scholars on race would argue that racism operates unconsciously in a white supremacist society like the United States. Jean represses her racism like any other white person trying not to be racist while constantly indoctrinated into white supremacy, which isn't something like the KKK but a society in which white people benefit the most from material and representational realities. Put any other settler-colonial white North American in that 17th century setting and fulfill their unconscious desires (freeing them from the work they've done to repress what is honestly evil) and they would view Storm similar to Jean. Jean's fantasy isn't specific to Jean, unless you think Jean's unconscious bias there is unique to her and not, say Cyclops, Xavier, society etc.

From what I recall of that story, Jean was reliving one of her ancestor's past which allowed for her inner desires to come forth. I didnt get the impression that any other white character could have replaced Jean and would therefore identify to those same feelings. I could be wrong but I dont think it was anything from the dark Phoenix story to indicate that. Those feelings and desires were all specific to Jean.

[Strong Girl Daken]

This is fair assessment. I'm always curious to see how others view certain encounters that occur in canon. As I admitted earlier, I have my biases but a lot of that are more a reflection of the xoffices and not necessarily because of Jean. However, as you stated, it's hard for me to ignore things of race especially to this level when there has not been at least one substantive conversation post that moment. I mean at minimum an apology would have been nice to see. But I understand your point as well and I think most readers than not would agree with you.



From what I recall of that story, Jean was reliving one of her ancestor's past which allowed for her inner desires to come forth. I didnt get the impression that any other white character could have replaced Jean and would therefore identify to those same feelings. I could be wrong but I dont think it was anything from the dark Phoenix story to indicate that. Those feelings and desires were all specific to Jean.

Any sexually repressed white woman who's ancestors owned slaves could have had that fantasy. That's a lot of North American women in the 80s. A white man whose ancestors owned slaves probably wouldn't fantasize about being a dominatrix but his view on black folks would be similar to Jean's if he was reliving the 17th century.

[butterflykyss]

Any sexually repressed white woman who's ancestors owned slaves could have had that fantasy. That's a lot of North American women in the 80s. A white man whose ancestors owned slaves probably wouldn't fantasize about being a dominatrix but his view on black folks would be similar to Jean's if he was reliving the 17th century.

They could have or these same women would have an aversion towards such thoughts if it was not something within their core that craved such interactions of supremacy and dominance. There might be some into it but I dont think anyone looks back at US Slavery in a romanticized manner, despite what their ancestors may think. Mastermind went with that period because he understood the desires of her heart. Again, he explains this as such:

[Strong Girl Daken]

They could have or these same women would have an aversion towards such thoughts if it was not something within their core that craved such interactions of supremacy and dominance. There might be some into it but I dont think anyone looks back at US Slavery in a romanticized manner, despite what their ancestors may think. Mastermind went with that period because he understood the desires of her heart. Again, he explains this as such:

If that were the case, America wouldn't be a white supremacist society today. Claremont (probably accidentally) exposed and brought to light an ugly reality that permeates the white liberal subject position (in comics, this is a longstanding discussion in academia).

[LordAllMIghty]

They could have or these same women would have an aversion towards such thoughts if it was not something within their core that craved such interactions of supremacy and dominance. There might be some into it but I dont think anyone looks back at US Slavery in a romanticized manner, despite what their ancestors may think. Mastermind went with that period because he understood the desires of her heart. Again, he explains this as such:

Technically, that's not Jean but I get where you're coming from.

[Wind Rider]

you know I was thinking about how votes would be handled if they are split. I have a theory here. The month, followed by the prevailing season would have higher rank. For instance (I'm not sure how the months are grouped) but if you are in the season of autumn and if its January (1st month and xavier) then that season would have higher rank in the event of split vote then their season would prevail. Now if there was conflict within that season, that is Apocalypse, Xavier and Magneto disagreed, then Xavier would have higher rank since it's the month of January. Despite how much they disagreed they would have to agree to the terms of the council. I would imagine that could lead to future co conflict but remember this council is temporary and not meant to be how Krakoa will always be managed.

Is it only temporary?

[butterflykyss]

Is it only temporary?

based upon what Emma assumed when talking with Xavier and magneto:

Technically, that's not Jean but I get where you're coming from.

weren't Jean's memories and mind transferred to the Phoenix?

If that were the case, America wouldn't be a white supremacist society today. Claremont (probably accidentally) exposed and brought to light an ugly reality that permeates the white liberal subject position (in comics, this is a longstanding discussion in academia).

I think this is fair but even if we go with your argument this would still mean Jean empirically racist, you would agree?

[Strong Girl Daken]

based upon what Emma assumed when talking with Xavier and magneto:






weren't Jean's memories and mind transferred to the Phoenix?



I think this is fair but even if we go with your argument this would still mean Jean empirically racist, you would agree?

As racist as any other white character and real person in a white supremacist society, so yeah.

[butterflykyss]

As racist as any other white character and real person in a white supremacist society, so yeah.

so going off this idea how does Ororo work around this or do you think she can? with the exception of her all the other mutants of krakoa are white. by continuing to work with mutants does she perpetuate the agenda of said people?

[Stormrocks]

so going off this idea how does Ororo work around this or do you think she can? with the exception of her all the other mutants of krakoa are white. by continuing to work with mutants does she perpetuate the agenda of said people?

Well, that's not true. Monet is on Krakoa and she isn't white. I have to assume Bishop is there and he isn't white. Sebastian Shaw is there and he's not white. Apocalypse is there is he's not white. We've seen Skin and Synch, they are not white. And didn't we see Armor, another non-white mutant, in one of the panels? Furthermore, we don't know all of the mutants on the Krakoa, but I think it's a stretch to say they are all white.

[Devaishwarya]

OMGoddess!
The Hadari Yao would be saddened and greatly disappointed by the grossly misconstrued notions of some of her most avowed acolytes in this thread.