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  1. #9211
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    This is better than the actual comic book. I'm glad Coates got ya'll to do all the heavy lifting and spin for him because this isn't what i read but it definitely would have been far better and made more sense.

    I'm just stuck on the simple reasoning.

    Tchalla is one of the smartest men in the world and has spent far more time in America and observing America and learning in America as well as other racially charged places in the world that Ororo has only ever flown over but somehow she fundamentally understands racism and slavery to a deeper degree than he ever could because he was coming from a place of unparalleled privileged. Personally i felt like "Really b($(? Your going to ask him if he wants a mayonaise sandwich next? God forbid this black man actually experienced racism on his travels. OR you know read about things in African American Studies, something. Surely he can string two and two together."

    When he talked about not having an answer. I was stuck on "After ALL that, After ALL these issues after ALL these trials this MFer don't even got an answer? This what we doing in 2019 Coates?"

    And when he was all i don't know what Wakanda stands for but it don't stand for this. My mind was all "The mfing KING of Wakanda doesn't know WTF his own country stands for. Three Volumes exploring the history of Wakanda, it's past, it's gods, adding new gods and he still hasn't caught a clue. Coates must really hate this #)#)#)"

    So our reading experiences were obviously completely different.
    Quoted for accuracy.

  2. #9212
    Extraordinary Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuiltyPleasure View Post
    Privilege is often the source of blindness. I'm unsure why that's even a point of disagreement. We all have our blind spots, which doesn't, by default, equate to our level of intelligence but is a reflection of our socialization. Do able-bodied people think about their privilege, or even view it as such, on a daily basis as to see all of the little and perhaps big ways people with disabilities are marginalized in society? Do men? White people? Heterosexuals? Native speakers? Sure, when you are in a privileged group, you may see how those outside of the group are not treated as equally or equitably as those within the group. But that doesn't mean you see or even understand it all.

    It isn't unreasonable, IMO, for T'Challa not to have seen something that, one, he probably didn't want to believe about Wakandans, and two, that wasn't blatantly obvious. Now, I'm not a Coates bandwagon fan, so my posts aren't about praising him and his storytelling. But I do think he often raises legitimate social issues within the pages of BP, which clearly don't work for certain readers and BP fans, while it does for others.

    There were two images that struck me that, visually, I think gets to Coates point about blinders and perspective. On the first page with Ororo and T'Challa there is an image of a staffer (that's the word T'Challa used to describe the palace workers on a later page) who was taking away his and Ororo's dinner plates. Now, go forward a few pages, and you'll see T'Challa being served a meal by a (staffer, servant, slave??) of the empire. Both actions were identical in the serving of a royal leader. So, where's the obvious difference to be found?

    Without knowing the history of slavery in the US ,for example, would someone visiting the US know, much less understand, the awful foundations upon which the country was built? Or would they see the surface and not think to dig deeper for the bigger, uglier truth? Yes, T'Challa is a brilliant man, but where is the room for him not to be all knowing or seeing?
    How can T'Challa have blinders on when he experienced racism multiple times over years of publication, from Don McGregor where he fights the klan and experiences racism first hand when he is attacked in a supermarket by white people.

    Going back further when he is with the FF and he deals with racism and for a short time changed his name to coal tiger because the name Black panther name was used In The Black panther party (which came after T'Challa was created by several months) there was also apartheid that Peter gilis wrote and T'Challa dealt with those issues as well as fighting a superpowered racist supremacist group.

    So again this goes back to Coates not putting in his diligence in researching T'Challa and Wakanda and what the mythos stands for. Because he would of known that all his "issues" he felt he had to address in the BP mythos, don't actually apply to Wakanda

  3. #9213
    Extraordinary Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    I think you make a lot of fair points but you are telling me that since 1966 when this character was creates he has never been outsmarted or never been susceptible to the flaws that make him a man? I recall how he "violently" responded to Ororo helping him when he was fighting Doom:

    Attachment 89879

    Or how he hesitated for approximately 5 seconds when deciding between vibranium or saving his wife's life:



    Do you think Tchalla as you described him would respond in the manner in which he did above? Why would a man as experienced in the world and as intelligent be intimidated by his wife helping him? Why would he hesitate to save his wife? The answer is he is human and flawed. That is what Coates is showing that he isnt perfect despite all his strengths.
    I can answer this overnin the BP thread of you want to post it there as to not further disrupt storms appreciation thread

  4. #9214
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by terrancejameson View Post
    My friend, Ezyo1000, I enjoy your ideas very much. I canít argue against your points because they make too much sense. I canít help noticing the clear connections from Coatesí run on Black Panther to MCU TíChalla and Wakanda. Iím going to dive in further, but Iíll preface this by saying that I donít expect to change your mind nor are you required to believe or see things as I do. MU Shuri is here to stay. Sheís not going anywhere. Okoye is right alongside TíChalla in Agents of Wakanda and now we have both Nakia and MíBaku from repackaged to gel with their MCU counterparts. Iím admittedly biased, but Iím willing to wager that Coates is crafting his stories to reflect MCU TíChalla.

    I donít think itís a slight against TíChalla for letting his ambition cloud his vision in regards to a GALACTIC WAKANDAN EMPIRE. An end to white supremacy does not mean peace for all black people imo. There are bound to be disagreements and conflict. I donít comment on the rape camps Coates planted in Wakanda. I was utterly turned off and I remain so to this day. It didnít need to happen in Wakanda to make his point, but then I notice a parallel to the opening of MCU Black Panther. TíChalla and Okoye both drop in on Nakia as she masquerades as a captive woman. We know theyíre not IN Wakanda, but we absolutely can assume that theyíre to be sold off. It makes me wonder...

    As far as we know MCU TíChalla is the equivalent of Tony Stark and Steve Rodgers combined. Heís never wanted for anything as the son of the king and heir to the throne. Iím not saying that he hasnít studied and trained abroad. Iím just saying we havenít seen it. We saw MCU Killmonger call him privileged as well. He wasnít wrong. We saw MCU Nakia show TíChalla a better way for Wakanda to embrace the world. If it wasnít for her Killmonger would have won the moral high ground along with his father. I love the latest issue because it doesnít question his intelligence imo.

    TíChalla ASSUMES Ororo had the wherewithal to understand and/or embrace the African-American experience. She didnít initially. She tells him that she had to learn more fore herself. Why wouldnít she? (Sheís just like him. Theyíre two halves of the same whole. Sheís the princess of an ancient kingdom as well.) IMO this conversation is an extension of their previous one under Priest. I love the irony of TíChallaís mention of Krakoa. His fight against the empire and his reluctance to agree to Krakoan terms makes even more sense. Storm is the one that appears partially blind. She called him out for becoming another Magneto. This story saw those words come to fruition in a way. He sees Krakoa going the same way and Storm doesnít. I do believe she understands the importance of mutants having their own. What I love is that this Storm and TíChalla both recognize the importance of what it means to be both black and mutant. I donít see how either character is under PIS to understand this.
    Yes to your points about them both seeing the importance of being black and mutant. We have seen Ororo talk so many times of the adversities of being mutant but when do we ever see her have those same discussions as it relates to being black? Her relating her experience in America to Tchallas experience with the galatic wakandan empire was brilliant.

    Quote Originally Posted by terrancejameson View Post
    Lolol thatís not what was going on but this sure entertained me. Issa mess. My strong pushback against this domineering Ororo is where was this same energy when Priest did it? Priest had her voicing her opinions about his character and what it said to her. (Mind you, there are also countless references to Strum and Drang throughout S2 of Black Panther.) Hudlin had Storm check him away from Namor. She was forceful and without compromise. Why isnít she emasculating him there? McDuffie he her do it too? How about Liss? I donít see how this Ororo is different form any of other incarnations in previous volumes of Black Panther? I donít see whatís so wrong with seeking the love and council of close and personal friend.
    Are people really upset with Ororos characterization here? When has Ororo not been preachy? When has she not inserted her two cents and opinion somewhere when not asked? When has Ororo not been looked to for her leadership and wisdom? She hasnt always been right but headstrong and opinionated is something she has always been and Coates was pitch perfect here with characterizing her as such.

    Quote Originally Posted by terrancejameson View Post
    Imo Jwatson TíChalla is discussing his blind ambition towards the stars. He succeeded with sending his people into space. They took Wakandan ideals into space but not itís heart. TíChalla and Ororo are both discussing areas where they were blind to plight of other black people. TíChalla just came back from his (on top of losing his complete memory) and Ororo is reminding him of her reckoning with herself over her place in HER community. Isnít that where you want her to shine most, my friend? In a community of her mutant peers?

    To be clear, TíChalla has all the answers at the close of S2. Ororo says as much and I have the issue to prove it. She tells us again that he is the most intelligent and strategic man that sheís ever known. Nakia is even impressed by his genius. Itís part of his personality.

    Are you saying that Ororo hasnít known what itís like being the outsider since she was a little girl? She had to prove herself against children who hated her simply for who and what she was since she first started stealing. Dickie had some kids call her ďAmericanĒ as an insult, but she had no idea what that meant for her life. We know she didnít learn it when she first went to her parents old home. We donít know when she learned, but she did. We donít know if she learned it before Kitty started screaming nigger, but eventually she did. TíChalla knows she knows. Iím hoping he assumed she picked up on it pretty quickly, and isnít as good as feigning ignorance as some X-writers would leave us to believe.
    you are speaking truth here my friend as always!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by GuiltyPleasure View Post
    Privilege is often the source of blindness. I'm unsure why that's even a point of disagreement. We all have our blind spots, which doesn't, by default, equate to our level of intelligence but is a reflection of our socialization. Do able-bodied people think about their privilege, or even view it as such, on a daily basis as to see all of the little and perhaps big ways people with disabilities are marginalized in society? Do men? White people? Heterosexuals? Native speakers? Sure, when you are in a privileged group, you may see how those outside of the group are not treated as equally or equitably as those within the group. But that doesn't mean you see or even understand it all.

    It isn't unreasonable, IMO, for T'Challa not to have seen something that, one, he probably didn't want to believe about Wakandans, and two, that wasn't blatantly obvious. Now, I'm not a Coates bandwagon fan, so my posts aren't about praising him and his storytelling. But I do think he often raises legitimate social issues within the pages of BP, which clearly don't work for certain readers and BP fans, while it does for others.

    There were two images that struck me that, visually, I think gets to Coates point about blinders and perspective. On the first page with Ororo and T'Challa there is an image of a staffer (that's the word T'Challa used to describe the palace workers on a later page) who was taking away his and Ororo's dinner plates. Now, go forward a few pages, and you'll see T'Challa being served a meal by a (staffer, servant, slave??) of the empire. Both actions were identical in the serving of a royal leader. So, where's the obvious difference to be found?

    Without knowing the history of slavery in the US ,for example, would someone visiting the US know, much less understand, the awful foundations upon which the country was built? Or would they see the surface and not think to dig deeper for the bigger, uglier truth? Yes, T'Challa is a brilliant man, but where is the room for him not to be all knowing or seeing?

    Yes yes yes to all of this!!! When you break it down like this who on earth could argue otherwise???
    ALL HAIL THE HADARI YAO!!!! NOW AGAIN THE ONE TRUE AND ONLY GODDESS OF THE X-MEN AS CLAREMONT INTENDED!!!!!

  5. #9215
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    I can answer this overnin the BP thread of you want to post it there as to not further disrupt storms appreciation thread
    the question I asked is relative to Storm. if you can pose your answer around that within this thread I would be most appreciative as I know there are some there that do not like her name to be mentioned lol.
    ALL HAIL THE HADARI YAO!!!! NOW AGAIN THE ONE TRUE AND ONLY GODDESS OF THE X-MEN AS CLAREMONT INTENDED!!!!!

  6. #9216
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
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    a somewhat lengthy discussion on Ororo's words in Xmen 1 about men and suicide bombs from a Jewish website. thoughts?

    https://www.jewishchronicle.org/2019...bombs-are-bad/

    and oan if none of you checked out Fearless you should. Ororo was truly shown as a powerhouse here. Not once was she dropped kicked by a street leveler so if you prefer books like that Fearless isnt for you:




    Last edited by butterflykyss; 12-02-2019 at 03:14 PM.
    ALL HAIL THE HADARI YAO!!!! NOW AGAIN THE ONE TRUE AND ONLY GODDESS OF THE X-MEN AS CLAREMONT INTENDED!!!!!

  7. #9217
    Incredible Member GuiltyPleasure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    a somewhat lengthy discussion on Ororo's words in Xmen 1 about men and suicide bombs from a Jewish website. thoughts?

    https://www.jewishchronicle.org/2019...bombs-are-bad/

    and oan if none of you checked out Fearless you should. Ororo was truly shown as a powerhouse here. Not once was she dropped kicked by a street leveler so if you prefer books like that Fearless isnt for you:





    I like the scan but the author of the article took a big ass leap with his analysis and link to Israel. And how was what Hickman have Ororo say whitewashing?

  8. #9218
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    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    Yes to your points about them both seeing the importance of being black and mutant. We have seen Ororo talk so many times of the adversities of being mutant but when do we ever see her have those same discussions as it relates to being black? Her relating her experience in America to Tchallas experience with the galatic wakandan empire was brilliant.



    Are people really upset with Ororos characterization here? When has Ororo not been preachy? When has she not inserted her two cents and opinion somewhere when not asked? When has Ororo not been looked to for her leadership and wisdom? She hasnt always been right but headstrong and opinionated is something she has always been and Coates was pitch perfect here with characterizing her as such.



    you are speaking truth here my friend as always!!!




    Yes yes yes to all of this!!! When you break it down like this who on earth could argue otherwise???
    Readers with totally different perceptions of the reading material in question, will argue otherwise with actual nuanced fact as opposed to mere opinion.

  9. #9219
    The Professional Marvell2100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    fair enough. but you do acknowledge that even if he wrote a tchalla the way you would want him to you still wouldnt like it correct?
    Why should I acknowledge something that Coates is incapable of doing? He's had 40+ issues to do something I feel accurately reflects how BP should be portrayed and he's failed.

    I've already said that I like his Cap(he's starting to drag that storyline out too long too.), so it's not that the case that I don't like Coates.

    I don't like Coates' Black Panther and in 3+ years, he's done nothing to change my opinion.

    I'll ask you a question: What do you think Coates can do to make me like Black Panther?

    I'm going to love to see your answer because I don't think you're going to get it right.

  10. #9220
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuiltyPleasure View Post
    I like the scan but the author of the article took a big ass leap with his analysis and link to Israel. And how was what Hickman have Ororo say whitewashing?
    I'm not sure what the author meant by whitewashing but it seems they believe ororo (by way of hickman) was trying to legitimize or victimize suicide bombers as resulting to such tactics because they are conquered people. I would agree though with your statement they took a huge freaking leap with calling it that.
    ALL HAIL THE HADARI YAO!!!! NOW AGAIN THE ONE TRUE AND ONLY GODDESS OF THE X-MEN AS CLAREMONT INTENDED!!!!!

  11. #9221
    Extraordinary Member stormphoenix's Avatar
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    What the HELL has been going on in here??!!!!! Sheesh all this Coates and T'Challa and Storm debates..wow.

    Coates must have struck a MASSIVE cord in everyone since Issue #18.

    Honestly, I liked how Storm was written in this issue. I thought she was GREAT, but T'Challa?....Yikes. I now understand the Frustration of BP Fans.

    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    This is better than the actual comic book. I'm glad Coates got ya'll to do all the heavy lifting and spin for him because this isn't what i read but it definitely would have been far better and made more sense.

    I'm just stuck on the simple reasoning.

    Tchalla is one of the smartest men in the world and has spent far more time in America and observing America and learning in America as well as other racially charged places in the world that Ororo has only ever flown over but somehow she fundamentally understands racism and slavery to a deeper degree than he ever could because he was coming from a place of unparalleled privileged. Personally i felt like "Really b($(? Your going to ask him if he wants a mayonaise sandwich next? God forbid this black man actually experienced racism on his travels. OR you know read about things in African American Studies, something. Surely he can string two and two together."

    When he talked about not having an answer. I was stuck on "After ALL that, After ALL these issues after ALL these trials this MFer don't even got an answer? This what we doing in 2019 Coates?"

    And when he was all i don't know what Wakanda stands for but it don't stand for this. My mind was all "The mfing KING of Wakanda doesn't know WTF his own country stands for. Three Volumes exploring the history of Wakanda, it's past, it's gods, adding new gods and he still hasn't caught a clue. Coates must really hate this #)#)#)"

    So our reading experiences were obviously completely different.
    Well, DAMN.

    But then again your not wrong here so....
    Ororo Munroe(Bright Lady), Hadari Yao, The Cloud Runner, Goddess of the People.
    Goddess of the Storm.
    #StormsMootyPass
    #PlusUltra!!!
    #StormCaster
    The Piercing Light of AmunRa!!!!!
    MUTANT and PROUD
    #KRAKOA FOREVER

    #catchmutanthands

  12. #9222
    Extraordinary Member stormphoenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    a somewhat lengthy discussion on Ororo's words in Xmen 1 about men and suicide bombs from a Jewish website. thoughts?

    https://www.jewishchronicle.org/2019...bombs-are-bad/

    and oan if none of you checked out Fearless you should. Ororo was truly shown as a powerhouse here. Not once was she dropped kicked by a street leveler so if you prefer books like that Fearless isnt for you:




    I LOVE this scene. Grace and Beautiful and Power! HAHA so cool.
    Ororo Munroe(Bright Lady), Hadari Yao, The Cloud Runner, Goddess of the People.
    Goddess of the Storm.
    #StormsMootyPass
    #PlusUltra!!!
    #StormCaster
    The Piercing Light of AmunRa!!!!!
    MUTANT and PROUD
    #KRAKOA FOREVER

    #catchmutanthands

  13. #9223
    Casual Comics Reader/Fan Londo Bellian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    I'm not sure what the author meant by whitewashing but it seems they believe ororo (by way of hickman) was trying to legitimize or victimize suicide bombers as resulting to such tactics because they are conquered people. I would agree though with your statement they took a huge freaking leap with calling it that.
    You mean the Orchis goons crossing the Despair Event Horizon and turning themselves into Mon'Keighs in X-Men #1?
    Genkai nante nai (No limits), Zettai nante nai (No absolutes)

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  14. #9224
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvell2100 View Post
    Why should I acknowledge something that Coates is incapable of doing? He's had 40+ issues to do something I feel accurately reflects how BP should be portrayed and he's failed.

    I've already said that I like his Cap(he's starting to drag that storyline out too long too.), so it's not that the case that I don't like Coates.

    I don't like Coates' Black Panther and in 3+ years, he's done nothing to change my opinion.

    I'll ask you a question: What do you think Coates can do to make me like Black Panther?

    I'm going to love to see your answer because I don't think you're going to get it right.
    now when I answer your question I'm doing this based upon how I believe you to perceive his work (and not my own perception of it lol). I think you would prefer it to build upon some of the established work that preceded the events of Doomwar. Though I am sure you enjoyed some of what Hickman did with him I would wager you could forego a lot of that if it meant all of what was written doomwar forward was erased. I don't believe you to mind Ororo and Tchalla working together as one unit but I think you prefer seeing a tchalla that didnt rely so much on his wife and his other family and friends but looked to how he could resolve conflicts using his intellect and gifts.

    I do think the difference between our view of Coates is while I admit I love him primarily for what he has done for Ororo a lot of my understanding of wakanda came once tchalla/ororo wed. I thought hudlin was ok as a writer but Coates work is a lot more engaging and he appears to have put more thought into how his story is told. You have an awareness of BP that extends well beyond hudlin so there in lies the big difference.

    Nevertheless, there is not ONE thing that he has done that you see as an accurate portrayal of tchalla? what about hus interaction with ororo? nothing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr MajestiK View Post
    Readers with totally different perceptions of the reading material in question, will argue otherwise with actual nuanced fact as opposed to mere opinion.
    but what in any if the questions I asked was based in mere opinion?
    ALL HAIL THE HADARI YAO!!!! NOW AGAIN THE ONE TRUE AND ONLY GODDESS OF THE X-MEN AS CLAREMONT INTENDED!!!!!

  15. #9225
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stormphoenix View Post
    What the HELL has been going on in here??!!!!! Sheesh all this Coates and T'Challa and Storm debates..wow.

    Coates must have struck a MASSIVE cord in everyone since Issue #18.

    Honestly, I liked how Storm was written in this issue. I thought she was GREAT, but T'Challa?....Yikes. I now understand the Frustration of BP Fans.



    Well, DAMN.

    But then again your not wrong here so....
    wait a minute? how do you understand BP fans? coates had tchalla defeat all his enemies alone and simultaneously ranging from doom to man-ape. he just got a little caught up in the achievement of his people which allowed him to be captured. what frustration do you understand???
    Last edited by butterflykyss; 12-02-2019 at 05:40 PM.
    ALL HAIL THE HADARI YAO!!!! NOW AGAIN THE ONE TRUE AND ONLY GODDESS OF THE X-MEN AS CLAREMONT INTENDED!!!!!

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