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  1. #9451
    Ultimate Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    I agree that once she left the xmen things have never been the same. Quite honestly I would go so far to say that when Claremont left initially things were not the same for her. The uncanny run during the 90s was very Ororo-lite. I mean extremely lite. I know people like to blame things on the marriage but X-treme wasnt the flagship title then and she had already been regulated to background role by that point. Also, if Wolverine can appear in a billion places there shouldnt be an issue with Ororo doing the same.
    .
    The early 90s werent great for her but she recovered from that rut, especially when Davis took over as writer. Claremont's books werent the flagships, but he did wonders with her as she drove story and was a central important figure. The same cant be said about her in the past 15 or so years of X-men stories. Even during Extraordinary, when she was leader, she was more or less reacting to things around her, not actually pushing the plot along and she didnt get much focus. She's been pretty much a supporting character ever since the ResurrXion era which continued into DoX
    Last edited by Havok83; 12-10-2019 at 11:36 AM.

  2. #9452
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cville View Post
    Its holding around 21,000

    BP wasn't canceled under Hudlin, it was handed off to Mayberry.

    Here is a Mind of Shadow post from weeks back.

    That absolute state of this thread. Bast have mercy. At least when people go on a "piss on Coates" fest in here, it comes from a place of fandom. Not this... sunken place type comments.

    Who wants to play a game? These are straight facts, no chasers, no opinion, just numbers. Ok some opinion, based on fact though lol.


    - BP v7 #16 is the 8th lowest issue sold in Black Panther history.

    - If you limit it to T'challa lead issues (aka throw out Kasper Cole), BPv7 #16 is the 5th lowest issue sold in Black Panther History. The top 4 were all Liss run.

    - T'challa lead Priest issues never sold under 20K in 49 issues with no marketing gimmicks, no renumbering, no event cross overs. He didnt fall to BP#16 range until his 60th issue using Kasper Cole. For the non Black Panther fans in here, remember, Priest lasted 62 issues with no gimmicks, no renumber, no crossovers, barely any marketing, no movies, no TV, taking an absolute dead character and re-inventing him... WITH editorial interference being forced to use Vin Diesel look alike Kasper towards the end.

    - Hudlin's lowest issue was 19,455.

    - Mayberry's lowest issue was 17,881

    - BPv7, #16 is Coates 40th BP Issue. Priest 40th issue sold 20,188 (and held that number until issue 52! aka had a dedicated fan base until nuked by Kasper).

    - Hudlin's 40th issue he wrote was actually vol5 #2, which sold 33,750. The 40th issue of vol4 was SWAD, written by Aaron. Hudlin's 38th issue sold 19,455.



    - Priest average sales number was 25,241. If you throw out Kasper run, its 27,250.

    - Hudlin's entire volumes averaged 35K. Use only volume 4 (his main one), and its 37,314. If you use issues Hudlin actually wrote (throw out mayberry and aaron), and its 37,114.

    - Coates current average is 42,450. Which is obviously beyond solid... until you dig a bit.

    - If you throat out Coates #1's (aka marketing gimmicks that do not reflect writing quality at all) and his intial legacy renumber marketing gimmick, and his average plummets to 34,462

    - Hell, if you throw out JUST Coates initial #1 that did 200+ K sales that literally had absolutely nothing to do with writing quality and was purely based on speculation and hype, his average drops from 42,450 to 37,180!

    - The entire basis of "Coates is the best seller of BP ever!" is all because of ONE FREAKING ISSUE! that had everyting to do with Hickman, years of no black panther solos, and Coates literary fame and absolutely NOTHING to do with Coate's writing itself. ONE ISSUE!! You throw out that one issue and Coate's SOLD NO BETTER THAT HUDLIN despite a billion dollar movie, despite "twitter followers," despite cartoons, despite merchandise everywhere.

    - Let Coates keep his legacy renumbering, just take out his two #1's, drops to 34,991.

    - If you think I am just chery picking, throw out Hudlins' two #1's and his mariage issue... 35,754

    if hudlin had stellar numbers sales wise it would have never been handed off. yea coates run may soon be over but as I said people shouldnt delude themselves into thinking its coates that is the problem. agents of wakanda is doing poor and probably wont make it to 12 issues and coates name is not attached to that book at all.

    also comparing the sales of coates book to hudlin/priest fair. the comicbook market was much stronger then than it is now.
    ALL HAIL THE HADARI YAO!!!! NOW AGAIN THE ONE TRUE AND ONLY GODDESS OF THE X-MEN AS CLAREMONT INTENDED!!!!!

  3. #9453
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    The early 90s werent great for her but she recovered from that rut, especially when Davis took over as writer. Claremont's books werent the flagships, but he did wonders with her as she drove story and was a central important figure. The same cant be said about her in the past 15 or so years of X-men stories. Even during Extraordinary, when she was leader, she was more or less reacting to things around her, not actually pushing the plot along and she didnt get much focus. She's been pretty much a supporting character ever since the ResurrXion era which continued into DoX
    at which point did Davis take over?
    ALL HAIL THE HADARI YAO!!!! NOW AGAIN THE ONE TRUE AND ONLY GODDESS OF THE X-MEN AS CLAREMONT INTENDED!!!!!

  4. #9454
    Ultimate Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    at which point did Davis take over?
    Magneto War. Editorial had already cut books, chopped the large X-roster and had the previous writers Seagle/Kelly kept just 4 characters, and Storm was one of them as she was pushed back as the main figure, which is how Davis treated her when he took over.

  5. #9455
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Magneto War. Editorial had already cut books, chopped the large X-roster and had the previous writers Seagle/Kelly kept just 4 characters, and Storm was one of them as she was pushed back as the main figure, which is how Davis treated her when he took over.
    ugh.... oh heck no lol.. storm did not come off as bring central to the story as she was during Claremont era. at least not to me lol.

    she was still more or less lightning lass and was ineffectual against the storm magneto created. it was cute that she and bishop teamed up with Joseph to help he counter magneto but again this is something she should have been able to do.
    Last edited by butterflykyss; 12-10-2019 at 12:05 PM.
    ALL HAIL THE HADARI YAO!!!! NOW AGAIN THE ONE TRUE AND ONLY GODDESS OF THE X-MEN AS CLAREMONT INTENDED!!!!!

  6. #9456
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    I'm at a point where i just don't give a fuck about Storm in BP no more. The writer sucks imo and it's doing nothing for Storm. I much rather her free to fully be in the x-books and be anywhere and everywhere at this point especially with all the writers together now. They can formulate without having to ask an outside office. Give BP a new writer and lets move on.

    I think it's sad people will turn themselves inside out to say the audience just isn't there so they can get their own desires met at the detriment of a character. 14,000 buyers aren't doing anything for Storm and we can keep holding on to the past acting like their wasn't rights issues or blah blah blah or rah rah rah for a goddess no one is even reading about or we can give the x-office a chance to make Storm great again. If she makes appearances in other x-books at the very least she's getting a visual. I'm tired of BP fanfic that is doing her not a one favor. Once Coates is gone i think there will be a lot more happy people on the BP side and the other. The audiences are there, people will buy what they are interested in or what is written good, Immortal Hulk shows that with it's consistently high numbers and i find it hard to believe in what anyone says if they can make that flat out kind of statement and not even be able to admit "i may like it, but maybe this really just isn't working."

    At the end of the day Storm is an X-character. Like it or not. Not a BP supporting cast members. Wake my ass when they make Storm and the Agents of Wakanda then we can act like the book is doing something for her other than cameo appearances while hurting what could be major appearances in her home books.
    I think it's silly that X-writers need to ask Coates or anyone outside the X-office what they can and can't do with Storm. They should be doing everything they can to push her further. That can be accomplished by incorporating all of who she is and what she represents. I think it's a copout for anyone to claim they have to look to Coates just to be sure how to handle her in the mutant world. It takes nothing to acknowledge her relationship with T'Challa and Wakanda respectfully and keep it moving. If anything X-writer need to mimic the energy Coates has with FORCING HER into their stories.

    I think it's funny that you take such issue with Coates' use of Ororo in his run on BP. That's your right and that's fine. On its face he uses her in BP the same way X-writers use Emma. Emma is given free reign to operate independently of the team, but she's still given a narrative in furtherance of mutant issues. If she can conquer the corporate sector to be a mutant badass then what is the real excuse taken with Storm? She still has her mutant identity in BP and Fearless. It makes no sense how either of those stories would offer a barrier to any X-writers using her in a meaningful way. I guess I just don't understand that.

    I'm all for a more prominent role for her in the X-books. I'm also all for a convincing argument as to why Coates' established place for Ororo in Wakanda somehow hinders or undermines her forward momentum in Krakoa and beyond. X-writers have all they need to build her up. Its up to them to take it use it. There's no way he should be causing more waves with her than they are. That's just disgraceful.

  7. #9457
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    Quote Originally Posted by terrancejameson View Post
    I think it's silly that X-writers need to ask Coates or anyone outside the X-office what they can and can't do with Storm. They should be doing everything they can to push her further. That can be accomplished by incorporating all of who she is and what she represents. I think it's a copout for anyone to claim they have to look to Coates just to be sure how to handle her in the mutant world. It takes nothing to acknowledge her relationship with T'Challa and Wakanda respectfully and keep it moving. If anything X-writer need to mimic the energy Coates has with FORCING HER into their stories.

    I think it's funny that you take such issue with Coates' use of Ororo in his run on BP. That's your right and that's fine. On its face he uses her in BP the same way X-writers use Emma. Emma is given free reign to operate independently of the team, but she's still given a narrative in furtherance of mutant issues. If she can conquer the corporate sector to be a mutant badass then what is the real excuse taken with Storm? She still has her mutant identity in BP and Fearless. It makes no sense how either of those stories would offer a barrier to any X-writers using her in a meaningful way. I guess I just don't understand that.

    I'm all for a more prominent role for her in the X-books. I'm also all for a convincing argument as to why Coates' established place for Ororo in Wakanda somehow hinders or undermines her forward momentum in Krakoa and beyond. X-writers have all they need to build her up. Its up to them to take it use it. There's no way he should be causing more waves with her than they are. That's just disgraceful.
    The simple fact is it makes sense to me if Coates who apparently plots his stories out far in advance used whatever stipulation allowed Storm to be transported to the BP books in the first place to say this is my approved story. How can one address a character being a goddess in the way he did when he hasn't even flat out given any information for anyone else to use. Sounds like a hostage situation to me. What is preventing Coates from giving us some detail info on Storm's godhood like where it may come from, how it is connected so someone else outside his books can jump on it rather than we all are reading the book and not a one of us can say anything more than Storm by birthright is a goddess and called the Hadari Yao after how many years?

    Especially if he wants others to use Ororo in the ways he has.
    Last edited by jwatson; 12-10-2019 at 12:44 PM.
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  8. #9458
    Extraordinary Member stormphoenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    The simple fact is it makes sense to me if Coates who apparently plots his stories out far in advance used whatever stipulation allowed Storm to be transported to the BP books in the first place to say this is my approved story. How can one address a character being a goddess in the way he did when he hasn't even flat out given any information for anyone else to use. Sounds like a hostage situation to me. What is preventing Coates from giving us some detail info on Storm's godhood like where it may come from, how it is connected so someone else outside his books can jump on it rather than we all are reading the book and not a one of us can say anything more than Storm by birthright is a goddess and called the Hadari Yao after how many years?
    Maybe it starts in the Next Arc after this one. I'm sure Coates has not forgotten, but I was hoping that he would actually talk more about it in this Arc. Just feels like he's not.

    He has 3 issues left to mentioned it. If he doesn't then i'm guessing that the Next Arc he will talk about it............................Maybe.
    Ororo Munroe(Bright Lady), Hadari Yao, The Cloud Runner, Goddess of the People.
    Goddess of the Storm.
    #StormsMootyPass
    #PlusUltra!!!
    #StormCaster
    The Piercing Light of AmunRa!!!!!
    MUTANT and PROUD
    #KRAKOA FOREVER

    #catchmutanthands

  9. #9459
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    Quote Originally Posted by stormphoenix View Post
    If, your referring to Coates i'd say that he doesn't suck it's just.....he's Boring when it comes to Storm. I would Disagree here only because I like Storm appearing in other books outside of X-World. Like Fearless and -_- Black Panther.


    Y'Know it's possible that Coates may write a Storm solo. Which I don't have a problem with I just hope he doesn't write her as boring as he is now.
    No sir, no ma'am no thank you. I am done with Coates. I was in the trenches with all the other people defending his writing and what not and i'm just done. All this issues he has done and all it has amounted to is nothing. I can't tell you anything that happened in coates run of any many that wasn't in some way a negative to wakanda rather than a positive. If he got a storm solo i would trade wait before i picked it up. Once i saw him and his style i saw him and i can't unsee it and i don't for me, like the way he tells stories. I don't want to read 3 years of stories to arrive in the same place but worse. No thanks.
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  10. #9460
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by terrancejameson View Post
    I think it's silly that X-writers need to ask Coates or anyone outside the X-office what they can and can't do with Storm. They should be doing everything they can to push her further. That can be accomplished by incorporating all of who she is and what she represents. I think it's a copout for anyone to claim they have to look to Coates just to be sure how to handle her in the mutant world. It takes nothing to acknowledge her relationship with T'Challa and Wakanda respectfully and keep it moving. If anything X-writer need to mimic the energy Coates has with FORCING HER into their stories.

    I think it's funny that you take such issue with Coates' use of Ororo in his run on BP. That's your right and that's fine. On its face he uses her in BP the same way X-writers use Emma. Emma is given free reign to operate independently of the team, but she's still given a narrative in furtherance of mutant issues. If she can conquer the corporate sector to be a mutant badass then what is the real excuse taken with Storm? She still has her mutant identity in BP and Fearless. It makes no sense how either of those stories would offer a barrier to any X-writers using her in a meaningful way. I guess I just don't understand that.

    I'm all for a more prominent role for her in the X-books. I'm also all for a convincing argument as to why Coates' established place for Ororo in Wakanda somehow hinders or undermines her forward momentum in Krakoa and beyond. X-writers have all they need to build her up. Its up to them to take it use it. There's no way he should be causing more waves with her than they are. That's just disgraceful.
    bish you just totally snatched my wig and edges off with this post!!!

    please ask the hard questions because its absolute absurdity that Coates would prevent anyone within the xoffices from writing her the way the want. Coates had her fighting with xmen and had tchalla reference Krakoa. How hard is it to do the opposite? Have her stating she just left Wakanda from helping tchalla in Wakanda? It doesnt have to be anything extraordinary. The bottom line they simply do not want to use her.
    ALL HAIL THE HADARI YAO!!!! NOW AGAIN THE ONE TRUE AND ONLY GODDESS OF THE X-MEN AS CLAREMONT INTENDED!!!!!

  11. #9461
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    Quote Originally Posted by stormphoenix View Post
    Maybe it starts in the Next Arc after this one. I'm sure Coates has not forgotten, but I was hoping that he would actually talk more about it in this Arc. Just feels like he's not.

    He has 3 issues left to mentioned it. If he doesn't then i'm guessing that the Next Arc he will talk about it............................Maybe.
    Or he will jump to a whole other story line like with the galactic empire they touting was going to mean something only to find out apparently it needs to be torn down. This arc should have been the one about the orisha's etc but instead we got amnesia and 18 of the most boring issues of a comic book i think i've ever read in my life and still no information on anything. Hell even Tchalla don't know nothing and he the lead in the book. lol
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  12. #9462
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    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    I agree that once she left the xmen things have never been the same. Quite honestly I would go so far to say that when Claremont left initially things were not the same for her. The uncanny run during the 90s was very Ororo-lite. I mean extremely lite. I know people like to blame things on the marriage but X-treme wasnt the flagship title then and she had already been regulated to background role by that point. Also, if Wolverine can appear in a billion places there shouldnt be an issue with Ororo doing the same.

    Nevertheless, I'm curious to see how they role her out as well. I'm hoping Marvel can work towards making her prominent and relevant again.



    I like your ideas about the moisture. Ororo bringing in enough moisture so that Iceman can freeze it; however, the other things you described I beleivd ororo should be able to do that theoretically on her own. That's why I dont see the purpose of them doing a combo. It seems like it would require lowballing Ororo to a degree. I guess we will wait and see how Duggan demonstrates this.




    that user was just throwing shades towards me lolol.
    #unbothered

    to your point about combos storm should be able to do all of that on her own boo.
    I don't see how it's low balling Storm at all. I could hold a board on a wall and nail it in if i wanted to but if someone else held the board and i could just focusing on the nailing i'm not about to go "no your making me less than by working in union with me."
    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.

  13. #9463
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    I don't see how it's low balling Storm at all. I could hold a board on a wall and nail it in if i wanted to but if someone else held the board and i could just focusing on the nailing i'm not about to go "no your making me less than by working in union with me."
    why does ororo need iceman to freeze things when she could it herself? I get your point of not having to have two separate tasks but ororo has done this before without being taxed.
    ALL HAIL THE HADARI YAO!!!! NOW AGAIN THE ONE TRUE AND ONLY GODDESS OF THE X-MEN AS CLAREMONT INTENDED!!!!!

  14. #9464
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlkGldBlu View Post
    Hudlind and Coates have done more with Storm than XBooks have in a while. Still waiting for HickmenStorm to do something. Cause Im getting my Storm Fix from the BP titles. More Woman, More Goddess Than Storm but Stom none the less.
    You must not need much Storm because in all those issues she really hasn't appeared that much. My problem is if the direction his spoke on to editoral about where he wants to go with her and he hasn't done much more so others can actually jump on and use it too. It's like he's holding the characters progress hostage. All we get is vague mentions in other books of her being a goddess even in Fearless but how can you say more than that when in what has been over 2 years of storyline "devopement" nothing has been developed.
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  15. #9465
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    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    why does ororo need iceman to freeze things when she could it herself? I get your point of not having to have two separate tasks but ororo has done this before without being taxed.
    But if it's easier why not? Why does any one person need to do it all just because they can? Why does Tchalla need a whole village to fight his enemies in BP. I don't get how you have a problem with Storm using a union move with another elemental but don't have a problem with all of wakanda having to always come to Tchalla aid for him to defeat any villain.
    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.

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