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  1. #436
    Ultimate Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    We have to remember that in the original canon, Wakanda wasn't advanced until T'Challa made it advanced. Wakanda couldn't entirely be the reason that T'Challa made Wakanda advanced in the first place. That sort of falls under the "which came first, the chicken or the egg" sort of thing.

    That said, I imagine a big part of the reason Hudlin retconned Wakanda to be advanced all along was precisely to address the issue you're bringing up... it's giving some of the credit to the western world, at least indirectly. The upside of Hudlins retcon is that Wakanda got there on it's own and well before anyone else. And that overall makes more sense. The downside being it takes away arguably T'Challa's biggest feat... so it's a trade off.
    which has already been addressed by Evans Rise (which is Canon now) in which he Bridges the Gap between Priest and Hudlin's origins in a way that gives credit to both. And at this point I don't think this is T'Challas biggest feat. Not anymore

  2. #437
    Astonishing Member Redjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    Right, and what I'm saying (I apologize of I didn't make it clear) is the idea of Africa being just as modernize in its own way the same as the rest of the world had it been untouched, and fantasizing that what if, to me is fine as long as what follows that train of thought is "how can we make this fantasy a reality?" Knowing full well the state of Africa and wanting to make a difference. In the state's in More of a how can we celebrate Black creations and thrive for more rather then, in the case of last year, things like pitting Black lead movies against each other (this happened with Black panther and Black klansman, and Black panther and enter the spiderverse) abd instead celebrating both and demanding more of this instead of fighting about Which is more important
    Agreement.

  3. #438
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    which has already been addressed by Evans Rise (which is Canon now) in which he Bridges the Gap between Priest and Hudlin's origins in a way that gives credit to both. And at this point I don't think this is T'Challas biggest feat. Not anymore
    Whether or not it's T'Challa's biggest feat is certainly arguable. He's done things which have saved and effected more lives than that. But the thing about elevating an entire civilization is something I'm not sure any other heroes can really claim to do, so the greatness of the feat is not just the magnitude of it but the uniqueness of it. Plenty of heroes can say they've saved the world or even the universe. That's a BIG feat, but it's not terribly uncommon in the super hero community. So T'Challa had something that none of his peers really had under his belt for awhile at least.

  4. #439
    Extraordinary Member Mike_Murdock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr MajestiK View Post
    I haven't read anything within the BP mythos to date, that suggests that Wakanda relied on the West for any of their scientific discoveries or societal developments.
    It's explicitly stated that Wakanda brought in the best thinkers of East and West during T'Challa's reign to reach the level they were at now. It's stated that this technology, including things like hospitals and vaccinations were recent additions to the country. Part of this had to do with T'Challa's education, which happened at a western university.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    which has already been addressed by Evans Rise (which is Canon now) in which he Bridges the Gap between Priest and Hudlin's origins in a way that gives credit to both. And at this point I don't think this is T'Challas biggest feat. Not anymore
    I agree with this and I think he did a wonderful job. I think Hudlin's take is a much more interesting take these days. I also think anyone who does their best to make as much prior canon consistent with Hudlin's take is doing admiral work and deserves praise. And I give Jack and Stan all the credit in the world for the steps they did take (Jack more than Stan because Jack Kirby didn't write Ben Grimm's awful dialogue in T'Challa's origin scene), but it's worth acknowledging their limitations.
    Matt Murdock's cooler twin brother

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  5. #440
    Old-School Otaku DigiCom's Avatar
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    I may have an unusual perspective on this topic, coming as I do from Italian descent.

    You see, many Italians, particularly of the older generation, fetishize their heritage (particularly Roman history, but also the Renaissance) to a frankly unhealthy degree. It's all "Italy invented this! Italy invented that!" I actually heard about a piece on the Italian news where they claimed that Italians created Mickey Mouse!

    The thing is, while pride in one's history is a perfectly valid and acceptable thing to have, it's not enough. To quote that esteemed philosopher of the 20th century, J. Jackson:

    "What have you done for me lately?"

    Nobody (outside Italy) would accept the idea that Italians are somehow better because their great-great-great-etc grandfathers were Romans, after all....

  6. #441
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    The difference is African histories don't get nearly as much respect as other ancient cultures. In fact, their accomplishments have been downplayed, underrepresented, and even outright stripped from them in pop culture at certain points. As an 2nd generation African immigrant I don't see anything wrong with black people globally embracing their shared heritage in the many kingdoms and civilizations that populated the continent before the arrival of colonizing influences.

    With increasing access to archaeological knowledge and greater public interest I think people should be eager to learn about their roots and learn about new things relating to their personal history. There's certainly the capacity for some to take it too far but in my personal experience I've found more black folks simply get the satisfaction of learning about African civilizations than adopting a stand-offish, "utopian" view of Africa.

    The latter mentality certainly exists but I don't think that means we should be wary of general excitement over ancient African societies. I feel the rising interest in African history globally has been an overwhelmingly positive thing even if it comes with a few people who are just overcompensating.

  7. #442
    Old-School Otaku DigiCom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chief12d View Post
    The difference is African histories don't get nearly as much respect as other ancient cultures. In fact, their accomplishments have been downplayed, underrepresented, and even outright stripped from them in pop culture at certain points. As an 2nd generation African immigrant I don't see anything wrong with black people globally embracing their shared heritage in the many kingdoms and civilizations that populated the continent before the arrival of colonizing influences.

    With increasing access to archaeological knowledge and greater public interest I think people should be eager to learn about their roots and learn about new things relating to their personal history. There's certainly the capacity for some to take it too far but in my personal experience I've found more black folks simply get the satisfaction of learning about African civilizations than adopting a stand-offish, "utopian" view of Africa.

    The latter mentality certainly exists but I don't think that means we should be wary of general excitement over ancient African societies. I feel the rising interest in African history globally has been an overwhelmingly positive thing even if it comes with a few people who are just overcompensating.
    That's fair.

  8. #443
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    Quote Originally Posted by chief12d View Post
    The difference is African histories don't get nearly as much respect as other ancient cultures. In fact, their accomplishments have been downplayed, underrepresented, and even outright stripped from them in pop culture at certain points. As an 2nd generation African immigrant I don't see anything wrong with black people globally embracing their shared heritage in the many kingdoms and civilizations that populated the continent before the arrival of colonizing influences.

    With increasing access to archaeological knowledge and greater public interest I think people should be eager to learn about their roots and learn about new things relating to their personal history. There's certainly the capacity for some to take it too far but in my personal experience I've found more black folks simply get the satisfaction of learning about African civilizations than adopting a stand-offish, "utopian" view of Africa.

    The latter mentality certainly exists but I don't think that means we should be wary of general excitement over ancient African societies. I feel the rising interest in African history globally has been an overwhelmingly positive thing even if it comes with a few people who are just overcompensating.
    If you don't understand how racism works everything you think you know will just confuse you. Add more info on why they lie about African history, Africans started everything. Africans are the first. Africans are fully human. Most of the worlds gold, oil and minerals come from African. Without Africans the minerals you use for your phone and computer would not work and you would not be on it. i love being African, lets just hope we get it together soon.

  9. #444
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beware Of Geek View Post
    This is true, although at the beginning (and for some time afterwards) the implication was that they were reliant on T'CHALLA for it.
    All the more reason why Reginald Hudlin's BP run remains revolutionary across the board and a helluva lot more logical than what came before.

    Wakanda existed for centuries before T'challa was born but somehow readers were expected that he was responsible for singlehandedly lifting Wakanda into relevance.

    To me, Hudlin's position that Wakanda was technologically advanced across the board as a nation before T'Challa's birth makes more sense.

  10. #445
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redjack View Post
    and yet...



    you shouldn't assume I don't know as much or more about our collective African heritage, past and present. that would be an error.



    yep. and that was awesome and I agreed with all the joy. in fact i was way out in front predicting what would happen. but the fact that the film appealed, literally, to the MASSES, regardless of ethnicity, speaks to its universality. Which I see as its strongest asset. Black faces, black conflict, black love, even fictionalized, placed dead center of a multi-multi-million STAR WARS-sized dollar epic? Gold. I never thought I'd live long enough to see something like get made, much less accepted, much less applauded and celebrated.



    yep. many. excellent work. I was amazed such a subversive film made it through Marvel and Disney executive and editorial. truly amazed. I think many of the levels were and remain invisible to them and to the wider audience.



    yeah. that's not me. this isn't a binary situation.

    Jack and Stan made secret cities. A lot. No one ever talks about the Keewazi anymore but I remember them.They all come out of the tradition of Flash Gordon, Buck Rogers and Pellucidar which dominated the filmed, radio and printed fiction of their youth and young adulthood, They gave little or no thought to the "reality" of these creations and injecting too much so-called reality is, ultimately corruptive to them unless done surgically and well (Pries's game-changing run, for instance). The constructs are too thin, in short, to support too much reality being imposed on them.

    End of the day, I'm a Black American. Not an African American, not a displaced African. An American. Too many of my folks died for me to be able to claim that for me to ever look at any other place as Mine. So, yes, while I appreciate the empty space that some folks need to fill with Utopian Africa and very much understand why that space is there and who created it in us, I don't share it. i'm lucky. I know that too.

    Which is fine. it's not necessary for us to agree on all points.
    I agree with you 100% as regards our not having to agree on everything.

    I also respect your personal preference to self identify as Black as opposed to African-American.

    However, I should point out that I made no assumptions about your knowledge as regards Africa.

    I never stated that, or expressed any assumptions in this regard at anytime.

  11. #446
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    This is an interesting post. Are you stating that people of African descent romanticize the idea of Africa untouched by Western influence to an unhealthy extent? I think it's okay to have a what if type mindset, so long as
    by followed with it is a strive towards making it a reality or in the case here in the states, not cannibalizing other contributions made by African Americans and sowing division.

    Basically take that fantasy and try to make it a reality and not use it as a woe is me and feel sorry for ourselves
    Agreed 100%.

  12. #447
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    No.. T'Challa received education in Wakanda, AND Europe and America. And the reason was to expand his thinking to a view not just soley based in Wakanda. let's not try and play this game of acting like he was reliant on the west for help.
    Agreed 100%.

  13. #448
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    Quote Originally Posted by chief12d View Post
    The difference is African histories don't get nearly as much respect as other ancient cultures. In fact, their accomplishments have been downplayed, underrepresented, and even outright stripped from them in pop culture at certain points. As an 2nd generation African immigrant I don't see anything wrong with black people globally embracing their shared heritage in the many kingdoms and civilizations that populated the continent before the arrival of colonizing influences.

    With increasing access to archaeological knowledge and greater public interest I think people should be eager to learn about their roots and learn about new things relating to their personal history. There's certainly the capacity for some to take it too far but in my personal experience I've found more black folks simply get the satisfaction of learning about African civilizations than adopting a stand-offish, "utopian" view of Africa.

    The latter mentality certainly exists but I don't think that means we should be wary of general excitement over ancient African societies. I feel the rising interest in African history globally has been an overwhelmingly positive thing even if it comes with a few people who are just overcompensating.
    Agreed 100%.

  14. #449
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_Murdock View Post
    It's explicitly stated that Wakanda brought in the best thinkers of East and West during T'Challa's reign to reach the level they were at now. It's stated that this technology, including things like hospitals and vaccinations were recent additions to the country. Part of this had to do with T'Challa's education, which happened at a western university.



    I agree with this and I think he did a wonderful job. I think Hudlin's take is a much more interesting take these days. I also think anyone who does their best to make as much prior canon consistent with Hudlin's take is doing admiral work and deserves praise. And I give Jack and Stan all the credit in the world for the steps they did take (Jack more than Stan because Jack Kirby didn't write Ben Grimm's awful dialogue in T'Challa's origin scene), but it's worth acknowledging their limitations.
    Thank Bast for Reginald Hudlin's retcon then.

  15. #450
    Get Hectic! FLEX HECTIC's Avatar
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    Just a thought...


    You know why so many black militants fail in their mission?


    The effort to turn worker ants into soldier ants is generally mathematically impossible but they press on in vain!


    A vast majority of most people black or white are civilians and not ready to ride or die soldiers that's why an established nation has it's own army and a recruiting service backed by tax payer money!


    The next time there is a "Town Hall" meeting on BET they should probably let the black geeks and black nerds do the talking and the planning instead of the standard issue black militants and civil rights activists!


    If you don't have a digital readout with full specs and futurist outcomes you may be wasting your peeps time!


    If you plan to rebuild the community actual architects with building designs should do the power point presentations for structures that are technically green lit and ground breaking!


    The key to true leadership is not the over excited pep talk but the boring detail oriented budget based strategy where checks are cleared and projects finished minus most of the rhetoric!


    Having been a black militant I eventually and logically walked away because there was never any real true end game... I mean even The Black Order had orders from Thanos to collect the Infinity stones with an ultimate purpose where as too many black militants love to hear themselves talk but lacking in genuine orders!


    A standard should be set that if you cannot top Malcolm X in manner and speech and numbers it can be a fruitless endeavor with no end in sight...


    Excelsior!


    (P.S. We need more black Stan Lee's making black super heroes than we do black activists because on planet earth 1.3 billion dollars already spoke without the longwinded rant)
    Get Hectic!

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