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  1. #10486
    Astonishing Member Redjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    First off, i love these types of conversations. It's fun and refreshing. Second. I don't see your side as a negative or a good thing your not writing the book. All the true BP writer's Priest, McGregor, Hudlin gillis, narcisse, liss, and McDuffie all brought something to the table to enhance the mythos.

    Without spoiling anything potentially, how would you handle it?
    hm.

    I have a multi-year story that not only addresses Wakanda's shady past in this regard but forces the issues a a massive conflict within the royal family and the culture at large. at the end, everything and everyone is unified but it takes a lot of hard work and a lot of crazy adventures to get there.

    plus, the actual Orisha.
    plus Earth-TRN633 Princess Zanda and how her powers work (which no one currently knows but me).
    plus monsters.

    plus an amazing new love interest and several obvious and as yet unexplored connections between Wakanda and some of your favorite heroes, villains and cultures.

    but, as I said.

    Odds are high we'll never see it.

  2. #10487
    Get Hectic! FLEX HECTIC's Avatar
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    Redjack's idea is really just this but with spaceships flying in the background and less Scary Curl juice and fried chicken...





    Note: Look haw far Morpheus and Nick Fury have come.
    Get Hectic!

  3. #10488
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redjack View Post
    Both.

    Wakanda was technologically centuries ahead of the most advanced societies on Earth. There's no way they needed to send out human agents or spies to do anything.

    I applaud Reg for trying to erase the stain of Wakandan passivity and inactivity during the colonization and enslavement of the continent but, sadly, that's what they did. They sat it out, just like they mostly sat out WW2 and presumably did sit out WW1.

    Wakanda brutally murdered anyone who tried to cross their borders for centuries. no way they care about what happens beyond those borders except in the most abstract and tangential of ways.

    Put it like this. Wakanda should have had satellites in orbit in the 1600s at the latest.


    They have no need of spies.
    The USA and most of the developed nations in today's world all have satellites orbiting the Earth and still have spy networks embedded in countries all over the planet so I'm wondering how concluding that Wakanda would not have their own intelligence agent cells gathering info from countries is beyond the stretch of credulity within the context of the MU were highly advanced extraterrestrial races such as the Kree and the Skrull's have had their agents infiltrate Earth for decades.

  4. #10489
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLEX HECTIC View Post
    Sometimes the biggest problem for African American writers is reconciling Wakanda's actions as a whole!


    The personal issues get in the way of the practical issues in regards to science fiction!


    One could expect Superman to save every crashing plane let alone prevent all major wars but then he would never get any sleep!


    Wakanda like any other concept is still at it's core "escapism" even if you agree with Killmonger's MCU ideology!


    Let's just call slavery one big tax write off that can never be undone even with 30 Infinity stones and work around it carefully!


    Agreed 100%.

  5. #10490
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    Though o could see it being a stretch somewhat that Wakanda would let it's prince wander the world bin a walkabout alone, I can 100% see them sending out spies to other nations despite being isolationist. You have the technology to do it that other nations only Dream of having, and you have had it centuries before the rest of the world. It would be folly not to put it to use, especially when sporting a 10k undefeated streak. You don't want to be caught off guard by an invading force
    I don't see it as being any more of a "stretch" than Dr Stephen Strange becoming Sorcerer Supreme leading on from his fine tuned surgeons fingers being mangled in a car accident or a young western orphan being taken in by the mystical monks of Kun Lun and trained to be the Immortal Iron Fist.

    For some odd reason, writers like Coates and a few others seem oddly driven to inject hyper-realism into a milieu and genre that remains science fiction and fantasy based to its foundational core.

    That's why we now have rape camps in Wakanda but no such thing on record in any other fictional society in the MU.
    Last edited by Mr MajestiK; 12-11-2019 at 09:24 AM.

  6. #10491
    BCB 4sake Baned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr MajestiK View Post
    The USA and most of the developed nations in today's world all have satellites orbiting the Earth and still have spy networks embedded in countries all over the planet so I'm wondering how concluding that Wakanda would not have their own intelligence agent cells gathering info from countries is beyond the stretch of credulity within the context of the MU were highly advanced extraterrestrial races such as the Kree and the Skrull's have had their agents infiltrate Earth for decades.
    Plus it was establish that day they had a spy network ( order of panther) in the late 80s for who knows how long.. Little to late to go back on that now imo.

  7. #10492
    Ultimate Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redjack View Post
    hm.

    I have a multi-year story that not only addresses Wakanda's shady past in this regard but forces the issues a a massive conflict within the royal family and the culture at large. at the end, everything and everyone is unified but it takes a lot of hard work and a lot of crazy adventures to get there.

    plus, the actual Orisha.
    plus Earth-TRN633 Princess Zanda and how her powers work (which no one currently knows but me).
    plus monsters.

    plus an amazing new love interest and several obvious and as yet unexplored connections between Wakanda and some of your favorite heroes, villains and cultures.

    but, as I said.

    Odds are high we'll never see it.
    Thanks for taking the time to answer, again I appreciate these conversations as they are far more engaging and interesting, even if we don't all see eye to eye. This story your talking about, is is a deconstruction story, or a pallet cleanse type, or a re-establishing of Wakandas prescence in the mu as a place you need to take seriously, akin to what Hudlin did?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr MajestiK View Post
    I don't see it as being any more of a "stretch" than Dr Stephen Strange becoming Sorcerer Supreme leading on from his fine tuned surgeons fingers being mangled in a car accident or a young western orphan being taken in by the mystical monks of Kin Kun and trained to be the Immortal Iron Fist.

    For some odd reason, writers like Coates and a few others seem oddly driven to inject hyper-realism into a milieu and genre that remains science fiction and fantasy based to its foundational core.

    That's why we now have rape camps in Wakanda but no such thing on record in any other fictional society in the MU.
    Brother Maj, i would honestly say those two examples are far more ridiculous then a walkabout, but given what we know about Wakanda abd how they treated outsiders, it doesn't seem like they would actually want T'Challa to do that. But honestly I don't mind it, and it adds more world experience to T'Challa that enhanced his character

  8. #10493
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4sake Baned View Post
    Plus it was establish that day they had a spy network ( order of panther) in the late 80s for who knows how long.. Little to late to go back on that now imo.
    I think the disconnect is thinking of things in real life terms vs comic book terms.

    In real life any country will have spies. But in a comic book situation if say Dr. Doom wanted to spy on someone he wouldn't need some Latverian James Bond. He'd use nanobots or whatever. Because a place like the MU has real life and Star Trek level elements all mixed together, it can sometimes mess with your expectations. In some settings marvel wants to look futuristic and in others, they want to be the world outside your window. A country as advanced as Wakanda in theory might not need spies when they have comic book sci-fi tech... but because countries in the real world use spies, they use spies.

  9. #10494
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr MajestiK View Post
    The fact that two Jewish men were able to envision a technologically advanced society wholly developed by Africans, and deploy same in 1966 smack dab in the middle of the Civil Rights turmoil at the time, only to have an African-American writer in the 21st century, dragging all of Lee and Kirby's work into the proverbial gutter is nothing more than an embarrassment of the most perverse kind.


    The sooner is regressive negative faux "woke" self is off the book, the better.

  10. #10495
    Astonishing Member Redjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    Thanks for taking the time to answer, again I appreciate these conversations as they are far more engaging and interesting, even if we don't all see eye to eye. This story your talking about, is is a deconstruction story, or a pallet cleanse type, or a re-establishing of Wakandas prescence in the mu as a place you need to take seriously, akin to what Hudlin did?
    I would erase the things i don't like (which actually isn't too much) and inject the things i want. Just like all the other writers have.

    as to the spy thing and liken ing Wakanda to any modern nation. Nope.

    Wakandans are insanely insular, highly xenophobic, ridiculously secretive and, as i said, the most technologically advanced nation in the world's history. There is no nation or collection of nations that they'd regard as a threat, much less a serious threat, until the end of WW2 and the use of atomic weapons (technology Wakanda would have discovered and rejected centuries prior.)

    Even at that point, there's no way they'd choose spies as a response because the entire rest of the world was controlled by white people or asian people. See many black Africans in the halls of power in those days? See many black people of any kind? Nope. Spies need to blend. Any necessary surveillance would have to be to make sure that the Western and Eastern powers didn't catch up technologically with Wakanda or, tangentially, wipe out the planet in a nuclear exchange.

    Wakandans thought themselves superior to the rest of the world because they are, demonstrably, factually superior. So the idea that they'd see anyone as a potential threat is something blacks in the West might apply to them (we would have reason to advise caution when dealing with these powers) but for Wakandans to feel that way would be like us worrying about the potential threat stone-age tribes in Papua New Guinea would pose to US security. IOW; zero. Ever. Forever. They will never, ever catch up.

    Writers like spies because they're fun.

    The EARLIEST you might have effective human spies would be at the end of T'Chaka's reign and going into T'Challa's.

    Prior to that? Nope. No reason to try that and no reason to believe they'd be effective. Robots and satellites would do.
    Last edited by Redjack; 12-11-2019 at 09:00 AM.

  11. #10496
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redjack View Post
    Both.

    Wakanda was technologically centuries ahead of the most advanced societies on Earth. There's no way they needed to send out human agents or spies to do anything.

    I applaud Reg for trying to erase the stain of Wakandan passivity and inactivity during the colonization and enslavement of the continent but, sadly, that's what they did. They sat it out, just like they mostly sat out WW2 and presumably did sit out WW1.

    Wakanda brutally murdered anyone who tried to cross their borders for centuries. no way they care about what happens beyond those borders except in the most abstract and tangential of ways.

    Put it like this. Wakanda should have had satellites in orbit in the 1600s at the latest.


    They have no need of spies.
    I don't fully agree with everything you said, but I understand. I get it. I want to believe in T'Challa's idea of Wakanda. I want to see the best in these fictional black people. I can't ignore Wakanda's blind eye as the continent around them was carved up. Killmonger has his fans because his views aren't illogical. He makes sense both emotionally and intellectually. I understand Hudlin's urge to readjust the narrative to make Wakanda more palatable.

    Hudlin strung his idea of Wakanda together with mentions of notable black celebrities and media outlets. Try as I might, I can't seem to think of a convincing answer why any heroes from the diaspora would embrace a Wakanda that doesn't embrace them. I desperately want to believe that T'Challa is the man to rectify all of that. My personal canon makes me believe that's one of the many things MCU T'Challa scolded the kings of the past about.

    Either way you slice it Wakanda is famous for standing firm against the yoke of European colonialism. Hard truths come along with that because hard questions have to be asked.

    I understand your point about Wakandan technology eliminating the need for actual boots on the ground gathering intel. I do believe Wakandan youth would seek the world beyond their borders. Nakia's POV makes T'Challa's walkabout even more plausible.

  12. #10497
    Ultimate Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redjack View Post
    I would erase the things i don't like (which actually isn't too much) and inject the things i want. Just like all the other writers have.

    as to the spy thing and liken ing Wakanda to any modern nation. Nope.

    Wakandans are insanely insular, highly xenophobic, ridiculously secretive and, as i said, the most technologically advanced nation in the world's history. There is no nation or collection of nations that they'd regard as a threat, much less a serious threat, until the end of WW2 and the use of atomic weapons (technology Wakanda would have discovered and rejected centuries prior.)

    Even at that point, there's no way they'd choose spies as a response because the entire rest of the world was controlled by white people or asian people. See many black Africans in the halls of power in those days? See many black people of any kind? Nope. Spies need to blend. Any necessary surveillance would have to be to make sure that the Western and Eastern powers didn't catch up technologically with Wakanda or, tangentially, wipe out the planet in a nuclear exchange.

    Wakandans thought themselves superior to the rest of the world because they are, demonstrably, factually superior. So the idea that they'd see anyone as a potential threat is something blacks in the West might apply to them (we would have reason to advise caution when dealing with these powers) but for Wakandans to feel that way would be like us worrying about the potential threat stone-age tribes in Papua New Guinea would pose to US security. IOW; zero. Ever. Forever. They will never, ever catch up.

    Writers like spies because they're fun.

    The EARLIEST you might have effective human spies would be at the end of T'Chaka's reign and going into T'Challa's.

    Prior to that? Nope. No reason to try that and no reason to believe they'd be effective. Robots and satellites would do.
    Erase things of past or current events? No nation they view as a threat, be it of the nations they know of or just I general, as in, what would their thoughts be of in regards to latveria abd Doom? Are you also saying that T'Challa would be less akin to Priest version in going out to study abroad and more like Hudlins Shuri who stayed and learned in Wakanda?

    Integration of human spies could easily lead to the creation of the hatute zerazi as I feel that fits into the role of CIA meets seals meets James Bond spies.

    I like the idea of Wakanda being that confident (hopefully not to set up a "humbling" experience like has been the case of late) but again this falls into is this Wakandas mindset that T'Challa doesn't himself follow due tk the nature of what happens to T'Chaka or does he too feel that way in Your version

  13. #10498
    Extraordinary Member Cville's Avatar
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    Agents was decent. Pretty basic, but I have no complaints.

  14. #10499
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redjack View Post
    it's based on logic and what had been established up to any discussion of Wakanda being involved in fighting the slave trade.

    i follow the Alan Moore School of comic book writing.

    Once something's canon, you're stuck with it unless you're extremely clever in writing it away or the company does a complete universe reboot.

    there is no way Wakanda can be seen as a "good" nation by American blacks if they don't put a stop to the slave trade on the African side and of general colonization of Africa by europeans. since that's precisely what they did not do, Reggie and some of those others tried to create a fix.

    The fix makes no sense but i see why they felt a need to do it.

    I had my own fix in place as well, sort of, but the world will never see it.
    I'm intrigued to learn more of your ideas. Hot damn, you have me salivating. Like, seriously... when you break it down like this Coates' narrative across the last two issues makes even more sense. T'Challa wanted so badly to see the best qualities in Wakandans and he overlooked their ability to abide slavery. You've just gone and reframed that point. Wakanda absolutely sat back and watched as Africa was colonized. Hudlin totally understood the necessity of explaining Wakanda out of that nasty predicament. The scrutiny is applied because it holds weight. You simply cannot highlight Wakanda's uncolonized history without shining a light on the countries around them.

  15. #10500
    Ultimate Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cville View Post
    Agents was decent. Pretty basic, but I have no complaints.
    It was okay, basic yes, bot how i was expecting it to end and left a little more to be desired, but not a terrible issue.

    Though I do wonder if we his got another tech feat when spoilers:
    T'Challas habit lit up abd he seemingly free ibto the chasm to stop John, i honestly expected hin to use the kinetic wave to give the planet energy as well as the gem
    end of spoilers overall average issue 6.5-7/10 still way better then anything out of the solo.

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