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  1. #9406
    Ultimate Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Because the interaction between 2 characters can often be far more compelling when they have a history together and actually give a damn about each other. It becomes personal.

    Plus a little flirting can be fun.
    The best we would get would be a malice situation, that's why I keep saying it wouldn't be as compelling as it would be with Spiderman or Batman

  2. #9407
    Extraordinary Member Cville's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    The best we would get would be a malice situation, that's why I keep saying it wouldn't be as compelling as it would be with Spiderman or Batman
    And with Malice, he did threaten to kill her family. That is some hardcore flirting. lol

  3. #9408
    Ultimate Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cville View Post
    And with Malice, he did threaten to kill her family. That is some hardcore flirting. lol
    Homie had them ships about to wipe them off the map lol that's why i say you can't play it off like that with T'Challa. He WILL get you to surrender or kill you, not some silly "oh no you escaped by making innuendos or kissing me" nah he don't play that

  4. #9409
    Astonishing Member KingNomarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cville View Post
    And with Malice, he did threaten to kill her family. That is some hardcore flirting. lol
    He did have W'Kabi evacuate the village first but she didn't know that

  5. #9410
    Get Hectic! FLEX HECTIC's Avatar
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    One for the road...





    Black Panther should be challenged with intellectual conversations like this not some reality show type of tripe!


    If she can't move the needle for Wakanda either as a Hero herself or a competent villainess with underhanded intentions then she does not belong within the Black Panther intellectual property or franchise!


    Challenge the mind...
    Get Hectic!

  6. #9411
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    The best we would get would be a malice situation, that's why I keep saying it wouldn't be as compelling as it would be with Spiderman or Batman
    It would potentially be better than the previous Malice, because the feelings aren't entirely one sided. And the fact that they're a bit closer in age doesn't hurt either.

  7. #9412
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLEX HECTIC View Post
    One for the road...





    Black Panther should be challenged with intellectual conversations like this not some reality show type of tripe!


    If she can't move the needle for Wakanda either as a Hero herself or a competent villainess with underhanded intentions then she does not belong within the Black Panther intellectual property or franchise!


    Challenge the mind...
    Flex, I always enjoy your posts. This one here spoke to me in a different way. I don’t think we’re ready for Nakia’s brand of heroics. I really don’t. I seem to recall when the movie first dropped, there were many accusations that T’Challa was very meek, mild and humble. (Not the exact wording used, but you get my meaning.) MCU T’Challa wasn’t praised for placing the women in his circle on a pedestal. He was actually torn down (here) as the man that was too ineffective and boring. He was also said to be outshined by the very big personalities that he was forced to play off of like Nakia, Okoye, M’Baku, Shuri and the Erik Killmonger. I’m enamored with this topic as you framed it, but I don’t think you’re stance is one that will go over well.

  8. #9413
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr MajestiK View Post
    I personally don't need to see T'Challa applying his martial arts techniques to Galactus or Thanos when superior writers such as Al Ewing have already shown him using his super genius level intellect to overcome the threat levels posed by both of those cosmic level beings.

    As a Black Panther enthusiast, I just want to see T'Challa portrayed as the super genius level intellect that his creators, Lee and Kirby, launched him into the MU as before it became fashionable for clueless writers to write him as an utterly irrelevant milquetoast joke.
    I’m not taking anything away from your views as you laid them out. I believe our views on T’Challa actually informs one another, even if you may not agree. See, certain things speak to me because of the negative reactions they receive. I came to love T’Challa the man in a time when it was pretty commonplace to see fanboys (we know who) tear him down in reference to the feats he was given. I honestly cannot remember a feat of his the received greater pushback than his arm bar of Silver Surfer. Everywhere I turned (not just in battle forums) the only King in Marvel that matters to me was being called every name in the book because he was treated as THAT DEAL. It hardened my resolve and it made me cheer for him even more. So when I say I I’m in desperate need of cosmic level arm bars on Thanos and Galactus, that’s what I mean. I want feats that will bring out the nerd rage in those same fanboys. I love rubbing their noses in it. I’m not denying the need for my king to flex intellectually, I want that too. I’m just not in desperate need to see it, because that’s not a part that’s sorely lacking imo. I want his big brain on display just as much as the next man, but I’m missing those nerd rage moments that compel me to defend him while poking fun at his haters. There’s nothing wrong with fisticuffs because our favorite superheroes punch people. I like to consider myself a Black Panther enthusiast in my own way and that is the part that endears me to many of you guys over here.

  9. #9414
    Ultimate Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by terrancejameson View Post
    Flex, I always enjoy your posts. This one here spoke to me in a different way. I don’t think we’re ready for Nakia’s brand of heroics. I really don’t. I seem to recall when the movie first dropped, there were many accusations that T’Challa was very meek, mild and humble. (Not the exact wording used, but you get my meaning.) MCU T’Challa wasn’t praised for placing the women in his circle on a pedestal. He was actually torn down (here) as the man that was too ineffective and boring. He was also said to be outshined by the very big personalities that he was forced to play off of like Nakia, Okoye, M’Baku, Shuri and the Erik Killmonger. I’m enamored with this topic as you framed it, but I don’t think you’re stance is one that will go over well.
    I think we are ready for it, MCU BP has proven that people are more then ready for that, but it has to be under the right writer. Coates is not that guy for it. It's gotta be someone like Coogler that can channel it in a positive way.

    As for the second part. I disagree, people kept saying they wanted to CW panther without realizing that CW panther wasn't shining as much as he was in his solo. Wore multiple hats in his Solo and his cast was able to shine because T'Chadwick played off then so well. MCU T'Challa is how I see mu T'Challa in terms of behavior. He isn't coming in trying to be over the top look at me, even in CW he was subtle, like in his solo, everything he said had purpose, and I feel that MCU T'Challa was done in an excellent manner

  10. #9415
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    Quote Originally Posted by terrancejameson View Post
    Flex, I always enjoy your posts. This one here spoke to me in a different way. I don’t think we’re ready for Nakia’s brand of heroics. I really don’t. I seem to recall when the movie first dropped, there were many accusations that T’Challa was very meek, mild and humble. (Not the exact wording used, but you get my meaning.) MCU T’Challa wasn’t praised for placing the women in his circle on a pedestal. He was actually torn down (here) as the man that was too ineffective and boring. He was also said to be outshined by the very big personalities that he was forced to play off of like Nakia, Okoye, M’Baku, Shuri and the Erik Killmonger. I’m enamored with this topic as you framed it, but I don’t think you’re stance is one that will go over well.
    With all due respect, who is this "we" you speak of?

    I personally, had ZERO problem with the way Nakia, Shuri, Okoye, Mbaku, Killmonger and the rest of the supporting cast were portrayed in the Black Panther movie.

    What I did find problematic was the fact that one of T'Challa's signature claim to fame, namely, his established genius level intellect, was wholly ported over to Shuri in total contradiction to what exists in established BP lore as depicted in the comicbooks.

    To my knowledge, T'Challa is the only genius level intellect in the MU whose prowess in this area, was not ported into the MCU in a similar manner to the likes of Stark and Banner.

    Starks intellectual swagger has been a centrepiece or dare I say it, lynchpin to the entire MCU from day one and even Banners profile was raised when he teamed his intellect with Stark's to create the AI that eventually became Ultron.

    Neither one of these characters had their signature intellectual capabilities stripped away and then wholly spliced onto another character so, why was this seen as being appropriatewhere T'Challa was concerned?

    Moreso, the T'Challa that featured in Captain America: Civil War, was a lot more in line compelling than the version that I saw in the BP solo movie a fact which ironically mirrors the way I personally feel about T'Challa's portrayal within the current BP solo book which is being written by a supposedly "woke" individual who's anything but.

  11. #9416
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    I think we are ready for it, MCU BP has proven that people are more then ready for that, but it has to be under the right writer. Coates is not that guy for it. It's gotta be someone like Coogler that can channel it in a positive way.

    As for the second part. I disagree, people kept saying they wanted to CW panther without realizing that CW panther wasn't shining as much as he was in his solo. Wore multiple hats in his Solo and his cast was able to shine because T'Chadwick played off then so well. MCU T'Challa is how I see mu T'Challa in terms of behavior. He isn't coming in trying to be over the top look at me, even in CW he was subtle, like in his solo, everything he said had purpose, and I feel that MCU T'Challa was done in an excellent manner
    I agree with a great many things you’ve said here. What are some ways in which Coogler has shown his exceptional grasp of displaying this aspect of T’Challa in regards to the many women in his life?

    I have to say that I loved T’Chadwick’s portrayal. His narrative was most compelling to me personally. I was endeared to everyone, but BP was the man that took the cake for me.

  12. #9417
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    Quote Originally Posted by terrancejameson View Post
    I’m not taking anything away from your views as you laid them out. I believe our views on T’Challa actually informs one another, even if you may not agree. See, certain things speak to me because of the negative reactions they receive. I came to love T’Challa the man in a time when it was pretty commonplace to see fanboys (we know who) tear him down in reference to the feats he was given. I honestly cannot remember a feat of his the received greater pushback than his arm bar of Silver Surfer. Everywhere I turned (not just in battle forums) the only King in Marvel that matters to me was being called every name in the book because he was treated as THAT DEAL. It hardened my resolve and it made me cheer for him even more. So when I say I I’m in desperate need of cosmic level arm bars on Thanos and Galactus, that’s what I mean. I want feats that will bring out the nerd rage in those same fanboys. I love rubbing their noses in it. I’m not denying the need for my king to flex intellectually, I want that too. I’m just not in desperate need to see it, because that’s not a part that’s sorely lacking imo. I want his big brain on display just as much as the next man, but I’m missing those nerd rage moments that compel me to defend him while poking fun at his haters. There’s nothing wrong with fisticuffs because our favorite superheroes punch people. I like to consider myself a Black Panther enthusiast in my own way and that is the part that endears me to many of you guys over here.
    I'm not "desperate" to see anything but T'Challa's full characteristic repertoire on display both on the big screen as well within his solo book as is the case for ALL other MU characters.

    I don't need to see a BP solo book where the titular character has been so nerfed by Coates to such a degree that one wonders what purpose said solo book serves within the larger MU.

    Coates has singlehandedly hamstrung T'Challa as a character within his own book in such a way that caters to the very naysayers you mentioned in your post.

    There is absolutely nothing compelling about a titular character who stays second guessing himself at every juncture whilst supporting characters push his narrative at every turn.

    Under Coates pen, T'Challa is nothing more than a lesser supporting character in a book that's supposed to be centered around his personal impact upon his personal world as well as the larger MU where said book fits into the overarching tapestry of the MU.

    Coates take on T'Challa is nothing to celebrate as the character lacks the sense of purpose or thematic fortitude and compelling urgency that formed T'Challa's backbone when he was written by superior writers such as, Stan Lee, Jack Kirby, Don McGregor, Christopher J. Priest, Reginald Hudlin, Dwayne McDuffie, David Liss and Al Ewing.

    All of the aforementioned writers wrote compelling tales on T'Challa that were consistent as regards his established character traits, abilities and overall mission statement and they did so without placing him all back of the bus behind his supporting cast at any time.

    And if for discussions sake, you specifically want to see T'Challa physically taking down heavy duty threats, what exactly are you getting out of the current BP solo written by Coates?

  13. #9418
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    I think we are ready for it, MCU BP has proven that people are more then ready for that, but it has to be under the right writer. Coates is not that guy for it. It's gotta be someone like Coogler that can channel it in a positive way.

    As for the second part. I disagree, people kept saying they wanted to CW panther without realizing that CW panther wasn't shining as much as he was in his solo. Wore multiple hats in his Solo and his cast was able to shine because T'Chadwick played off then so well. MCU T'Challa is how I see mu T'Challa in terms of behavior. He isn't coming in trying to be over the top look at me, even in CW he was subtle, like in his solo, everything he said had purpose, and I feel that MCU T'Challa was done in an excellent manner
    The T'Challa exhibited during CA:Civil War, was focused, tactical, supremely capable, confident and undeniable in the immediate aftermath of T'Chaka's murder.

    He physically took on both Captain America and the Winter Soldier at different points in that movie both in and out of suit without losing a beat whilst maintainingthe presence of mind to stealthily track Baron Zemo's trail to its thematic end thus proving that even in his state of grief, he was still capable of applying his intellectual prowess and ability to show mercy.

    I didn't really get any of that vibe in the BP solo other than within the opening segment set in the Nigerian forest and I'm sorry to say that my opinion as regards Coogler's take on T'Challa is getting worse following repeated viewings of the movie.

    I wouldn't be surprised to see Coogler incorporating a lot of Coates wackness into the next BP solo movie to be quite frank.

  14. #9419
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr MajestiK View Post
    With all due respect, who is this "we" you speak of?

    I personally, had ZERO problem with the way Nakia, Shuri, Okoye, Mbaku, Killmonger and the rest of the supporting cast were portrayed in the Black Panther movie.

    What I did find problematic was the fact that one of T'Challa's signature claim to fame, namely, his established genius level intellect, was wholly ported over to Shuri in total contradiction to what exists in established BP lore as depicted in the comicbooks.

    To my knowledge, T'Challa is the only genius level intellect in the MU whose prowess in this area, was not ported into the MCU in a similar manner to the likes of Stark and Banner.

    Starks intellectual swagger has been a centrepiece or dare I say it, lynchpin to the entire MCU from day one and even Banners profile was raised when he teamed his intellect with Stark's to create the AI that eventually became Ultron.

    Neither one of these characters had their signature intellectual capabilities stripped away and then wholly spliced onto another character so, why was this seen as being appropriatewhere T'Challa was concerned?

    Moreso, the T'Challa that featured in Captain America: Civil War, was a lot more in line compelling than the version that I saw in the BP solo movie a fact which ironically mirrors the way I personally feel about T'Challa's portrayal within the current BP solo book which is being written by a supposedly "woke" individual who's anything but.
    When I say “we” it’s more of an acknowledgement that WE as a culture are not ready to acknowledge the greatness of the black female form. With all due respect, this post of yours goes a long way to reinforcing my beliefs. I’m not sure how the sudden emergence of Shuri’s genius level intellect would somehow suggest that that aspect of T’Challa’s essence was stripped away? How did you come to that conclusion? I certainly didn’t. The king I saw was more than capable of keeping up with his little sister in the science lab. Why does Shuri’s new station appear to infringe upon T’Challa’s in your opinion? I’m not saying that we couldn’t use more emphasis on his brand of genius level intellectual flexing, but I’m also not going to say that it was completely absent from the movie.

    I need to bring the focus back to Nakia for a bit. In order to fully accept and acknowledge her place of importance in MCU Wakanda, it’s vital that we highlight that HERS is the only viewpoint that allowed for T’Challa is take the moral high ground away from Erik Killmonger. Only through Nakia’s guidance, his reverence for her and the wisdom to open his heart and follow her are we then able to truly see his genius at play. Nakia and Killmonger both have the same plan, but Erik’s is a twisted version designed to bring out the ugly side of Wakanda. Nakia’s plan is to highlight Wakanda’s beauty.

    MCU T’Challa speaks to me because his sense of community informs his actions. He’s a man that wants to see the best in the people around him, but his brain won’t allow him to ignore that ugliness that comes along with human nature. We literally see the boy in him die as he loses that child like reverence for his father. He becomes a man as he sees his father as a deeply flawed man that’s worked his whole life trying to be a good king.

    Ultimately, I believe MCU T’Challa has no peer because of the way that he champions his community. I honestly believe that was Coogler’s critique on black people as a whole, he just didn’t hit us over the head with it. The women are important because they hold up every aspect of society. First we have Bast, the great goddess and the most divine female form and clear proof the god is a black woman. Okoye and the Dora’s are the warrior essence and the teeth of Wakanda. Shuri was Wakanda’s innovative spiritual essence. And Nakia represents the warmth, the heart and the nurturing side of Wakanda. T’Challa the imperfect man and impeccable king is made richer for the wealth of women in his life and the sense of community he possesses. He’s not worried about flexing on fools and “one-upping a nigga”,. Neither is he bent on seeing a man that looks like him and being overcome with a powerful urge to kill this reflection of himself before it does the same to him. He’s not on his American hip hop **** that glorifies moving outta the hood (and away from the community) only to move into neighborhoods that have been redlined specifically to keep them out. He also isn’t the type of black man that blindly turns twists himself into a pretzel to over the idea of appearing masculine. It all just radiates off him because he’s being himself, he isn’t being this idea of what society says he should be. To me he represents all for one and one for all. MCU T’Challa is all about building up his community in Wakanda and the disenfranchised across America. He still had the presence of mind to honor his cousin by giving back to HIS community.

    That last part is especially poignant with MU T’Challa with the way me made Wakanda a beacon and safe haven for black heroes all over the MU. I may not be the best judge of character, but I’m pretty sure the white majority that Coates supposedly caters to would be hard pressed to highlight these aspects of Damisa-Sarki.

  15. #9420
    Astonishing Member Blind Wedjat's Avatar
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    I think this is where I disagree with some on here about T'Challa in Civil War.

    Maybe I haven't said this before, but the way Markus and McFeely changed the circumstances of T'Chaka's death ultimately changed T'Challa as a character moving forward. T'Challa in the comics is like Bruce Wayne in the sense that tragedy striking in their childhood ultimately robbed them of having a complete one. In Wayne's case, he starts getting groomed to take over the family empire and then travels the world in order to learn how to fight crime. In T'Challa's case he is immediately groomed for the crown and then travels the world (or to the West) to learn about the outside world. This sudden thrust of responsibility is what I think led to the cold personality both men sometimes have.

    By changing T'Chaka's death as an event that occurs when T'Challa is a man, it allows him to deal with this trauma a lot better than as child. He had his childhood, and when he was no longer a child, he was a already ready to be king and was the Black Panther. This may make T'Challa more mentally stable, but also takes away the guarded nature, the slight paranoia, and the shrewdness the character is often associated with.

    But really, I don't think the MCU prepared for his arrival properly. Keep in mind that the dismemberment of Klaue was taken away from T'Challa and given to Ultron, and the assassination of T'Chaka was given to Zemo, not Klaue. These are key events in T'Challa's history that play out completely differently.

    To get back to why I don't think Civil War did T'Challa justice though, I said that killing T'Chaka while T'Challa is an adult makes him more stable. It should have also made him a lot more methodical and logical. Instead the film portrays him as irrational and antagonistic. We know Bucky didn't do it. Everybody knows he didn't do it, except T'Challa. He simply takes what the news told him at face value without ever investigating, and he seemingly has no real plan other than clawing Bucky in the face. His on intelligence network can't find Bucky and needs Black Widow's help. He's never once shown to be an intelligent man (and there were several opportunities to show this) but rather a capable fighter. Almost throughout the entire film T'Challa is wrong. He's supposed to be right when everyone else thinks he's wrong.

    In his ruthlessness, he never gets anything done. He has three opportunities to take out his target but doesn't. Moreover, he let Zemo live. Now I understand that one of the themes of the film was that revenge makes you less human, but come on. Zemo killed T'Chaka pretty much for no reason other than to get the Avengers to fight each other. He was essentially collateral damage and Zemo admitted this to T'Challa's face and he let him live. I'm sorry, but that's bullshit.

    Now I don't hate this characterisation. But I seriously wonder why so many have a problem with T'Challa in his solo when he was the exact same character at the end of Civil War. He should have been the one guy that saw the Avengers where being played when they were too busy being caught up in their emotions. That's T'Challa, not the revenge obsessed and irrational version we got.

    The solo movie actually showed that he can be a lot more methodical and logical.
    Last edited by Blind Wedjat; 11-06-2019 at 02:55 PM.

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