Black Panther Appreciation 2019

[Mr MajestiK]

I'm telling you, your explanations really aren't selling me on why you CANT be able to write the book.

Honestly the book currently doesn't feel like it has any agency or direction. Atleast not where T'Challa is concerned. It's literally blame T'Challa for whatever new Western atrocity Coates is deciding to shackle onto the mythos and then have a supporting cast member save the day. Hardly a strong pov, and definitely breaking the toys, I mean look how much retconning have been done already?

It seems more like the comics side just doesn't care enough to make sure everything is coherent. I mean look at how much more restrictions Coates has on Cap as opposed to T'Challa. If Coates did the same thing to cap as he has done to Cap, he would of been canceled hard.

As for your last point, what your changing honestly is just repurposing the mythos to be more inline with the MCU. Sure people may not like EVERYTHING, but if it gives consistently and keeps the core aspects of T'Challa and Wakanda, i think most people would be okay with it.

Even among us fans here we praise what we like abd criticize what we don't, no bias among criticism, Priest and Hudlin aren't exempt from that. It's the simple fact that for the criticisms they get, the good far outweighs the bad. For Coates the opposite is true. And really the good isn't even his doing. It's the artists and stelfreeze's ideas and aesthetics.

Bro, the MU came before the MCU and to be quite honest with you, I'm more interested 8n the two entities being less integrated than is the case at present.

I dont see why the BP mythos should be literally one of the only Marvel IP properties, that some writers are given free reign to bend to their own purposes with little to no editorial oversight.

I haven't purchased a single issue of Coates BP run and wouldn't even deign to read same tor free if opportunity arose.

That's how committed I am to the mythos.

[Redjack]

i mean.

no one's offering me this gig. we know this is all just hypothetical, right?

my feeling is all the previous writers have contributed great things and all of them have made false steps (in MY opinion). And that will be true of all writers of every story because writers are human and nothing made by humans is perfect.

I start with Stan and Jack (or whoever came first) and I move forward from there, pruning off anything I think makes the tree unhealthy or ugly. what that 'pruning' would mean will mean different things from writer to writer and reader to reader

I think the x-books and the panther books are a bad fit for a host of reasons. Obviously lots of people disagree with my view. that will be the case with whoever is writing these things. But please never think that any of us, even those writers whose work you hate, are doing any of this "on a whim."

Everyone is doing their best and should be dealt with as such.

Also, just because I'd move Ororo from being his wife and queen doesn't mean she's gone from his life or doesn't influence him or even invoke all the complex feelings. it also doesn't mean i can't give you somebody much BETTER for him to pair up with.

we don't sign onto these books so we can just continue whatever the previous team was doing. We sign up to tell the stories WE want to tell if Marvel will let us.

Assume the good. No one gets into comics because they don't love them.

[XPac]

I don't disagree that T'Challa's actions make sense within the broader story Coates was trying to tell. But I think that his failure (or perhaps refusal) to show Storm taking criticism for her previous actions makes their reconciliation far less compelling, if not moot altogether. Wakandans were willing to upend 10,000 years of traditional government to redress "T'Challa's" failures due in part to Namor's flooding of the Golden City. They were willing to kill each other and their royal family over these convictions, but they readily accept the former queen who betrayed them to ally with Namor with little evaluation of what she had done before. That doesn't make sense to me.

It's not like Wakandans needed to be burning her effigy as she strolled through Alkama Fields but if we're meant to believe that T'Challa and Storm are mutually working past their problems there should've been some criticism thrown her way, so that she could prove herself the way T'Challa had to. Especially since T'Challa divorced her because he knew the optics of his queen having been associated with a genocidal maniac like Namor. There should've been a Wakandan mutant who lost her children in that flood asking if what Storm did was worth it. An adviser quitting his job over working with her to stop the Originators. Some villagers who don't worship her, but actually consider her an agent of chaos, a true weather witch.

Something to demonstrate that there were repercussions for her actions, which would've made her ascension and subsequent acceptance feel more earned. There was an actual opportunity to show a mature, politically complex reunion between the two that was wasted because it would've meant Storm had to temporarily be shown in a negative light. T'Challa was the one to annul the marriage but it wasn't a blameless situation and Coates didn't capture that, instead putting ALL the burden on him while glossing over how Wakandans would very likely perceive their former queen.

And considering how much of S2 was based around their reconciliation and how it intersected with Wakanda's defeat of the Originators, the entire arc suffers for not showing Storm truly earn her godhood and repairing her relationship with the Wakandan people. Sure it can be implied that there was opposition to her, but if it's not actually shown it waters down the narrative to the point that the victory (both in terms of their romance and defeating Adversary) feels like it came way too easily.

In all fairness though, Storm and the X-Men as a whole were not really responsible for what Namor did. He did that on his own, and afterwards Storm and a good portion of the X-Men ended up switching sides over it. So while it's understandable that some might have bad feelings over what happened, the fact that Storm wasn't actually responsible for what Namor did does go a long ways towards people moving on from it.

Which isn't to say I don't necessarily disagree that more drama could have been pulled out of that. I'll agree that the conflict over Storm re-integrating herself with the Wakandans could have been given more panel time and become a bigger part of the story.

[FLEX HECTIC]

Deez Kidz Today I tell ya...


Baby Yoda... OOPS I mean grown @$$ Master Yoda says...





Black Panther should be plug and play like Playstation or Xbox where you pick up the controller and press the power button and get busy!


It seems like many writers get jumbled up instead of relaxing and letting the story unfold organically!


There are plain as day obvious selling points inherent with this character but way too many moving parts that tease a writer into believing that the wrong route is the right way to go!


A "Point Man" has to be willing to trim the fat where necessary and realize if or when other characters are sucking valuable panel space up at the expense of the central character!


About 20+ pages are in the standard issue comic book with generally 6 featured panels... How much space should be designated for not so important characters?


Solo spinoff books appear to be a waste for sidekick characters not as popular as they are depicted next to the main hero so who gets regulated to background eye candy and who dosen't!


Also... Are the usual suspect writers really trained for such an ensemble cast when most of their skill set involves random team ups of vastly different heroes?


Is there a school that graduates students even capable of handling all that Wakandan glory?


Sometimes you need to make things easier and limit the responsibilities of covering so many close relatives and just do the traditional thing...


Black Panther... Significant Other/Love Interest... Rogues Gallery... Wakanda... Period!


All other agendas should be expendable until they can be proven to be lucrative and beneficial to the main character!


If Shuri, Nakia, Okoye or Zanda are not at Catwoman or Harley Quinn level and able to hold their own as independent characters either build them properly or push them back until someone can truly A-list them separate from T'challa!


Redjack is right... There is just a whole lot of nothing burger agendas with Black Panther that needs to stop ASAP less we be still complaining in the year 2020 and beyond!


Question: Is Black Panther as an intellectual property intimidating to most writers and if so why?


At some point most of us want to just enjoy Black Panther in movies, cartoons, comics and video games without all the extra drama like Batman fans do!

[Ezyo1000]

Why?

To me, there was absolutely nothing wrong wit Priest, Hudlin and Liss's respective takes on T'Challa as a character, Wakanda as an important part of the MU tapestry and the BP Mythos as a vibrant intellectual property that grew into a movie that took the world by storm. (No pun intended.)

I for one, understood exactly why both Priest and then Hudlin carried Chris Claremont's introduction of Ororo and T'Challa's meeting as teenagers and then, grow same into a marriage that actually fulfilled Charles Xavier's dream of Mutants and Humans living in peace which one would presume could have led on to incredible stories between the X--franchise, BP Mythos in particular and the MU shared universe in general.

Ororo and T'Challa being married was never a problem.

It was the total lack of imagination on the part of some writers in the past and some in the present, that failed to truly understand the concept of a shared universe let alone respecting the tenets of basic continuity.

Ta Nehisi Coates has carried out a sustained desecration of the BP Mythos for the past three years and is scheduled to continue for the forseeable future but apparently his introduction of Wakandan Rape Camps and a thoroughly milquetoast T'Challa, is more acceptable to some than Ororo and T'Challa being married.

Any future writer commissioned to write the next BP run, would do well to remember that making unnecessary changes to the characters mythos on a whim as opposed to established continuity isn't a good look or one that should be blithely accepted by readers without question or critique.

I wouldn't care to see them not be a thing anymore for the simple fact that Marvel showed what they thought about it with AvX, and subsequent years to follow. Marvel killed that relationship dead, and now Coates brought it back but in a way that puts all blame on T'Challa and then the latest issue sealed what Coates thinks about the relationship.

So imo if it went away I would not lose any sleep over it because it's been literally spoiled and used to take potshots for years, on some petty ass isht.

And it's not as though Redjack is saying he didn't like their takes. But just like Hudlin and Priest, not everything they did made sense. Not saying the T'Challa and Storm paring didn't make sense, but personally after everything that came from it, the cons vastly outweigh the pros

[Ezyo1000]

Bro, the MU came before the MCU and to be quite honest with you, I'm more interested 8n the two entities being less integrated than is the case at present.

I dont see why the BP mythos should be literally one of the only Marvel IP properties, that some writers are given free reign to bend to their own purposes with little to no editorial oversight.

I haven't purchased a single issue of Coates BP run and wouldn't even deign to read same tor free if opportunity arose.

That's how committed I am to the mythos.

Really, there are only a few things i would want integrated from the MCU to the mu and they are: MCU Nakia, Shuris outfit, Mbaku's look, and T'Challas MCU habit. It's not a full integration but rather a buffet, pick the stuff you like abd add it to your plate..

And your preaching to the choir, no one here believes thst any writer should be able to just come in and do whatever the hell they want without any oversight. Hence why BP needs a point man to check the isht at the door

[FLEX HECTIC]

Have you ever been in that relationship where you tried to make things work and no matter how hard you tried that other person just wasn't the ONE!


The best thing that could happen to you is to find that other person in bed with your best friend so that you can put an end to that madness with an excuse handed right to you for the both of them!


Before you get mad at them they showed their true colors and saved you years of B.S. and soul searching... Keep it moving it's not you it's them so don't make a fuss pack your things and go fulfill your real destiny!





I mean... I really mean... Who wants to work on the Black Panther comic while the X-office is steady mocking you and your hard work!


Did Captain America: Civil War mock MCU Black Panther moving towards his solo movie... I'll wait!


Infinity War... Endgame... In which of the twenty plus Marvel movie was Black Panther saddled with a burdened relationship that did not benefit his franchise!


What about the hit cartoons sans Storm where Wakandan tech was a match for anything!


You don't have time to waste let alone the dead trees to manufacture the paper used to make cancelled or borderline cancellation comics!


Unless Marvel makes Storm the leading lady in the MCU and mandates her as the "IT" girl bumping Academy Award winner Lupita N'yongo who is all over the magazine racks to the side this relationship is a dead issue... End of!


If I could be a fly on the wall at certain places to eavesdrop over the planning of this failed state relationship over months and years at a time...

[FLEX HECTIC]

I have a Storm statue collecting dust in my son's closet while my computer desk is covered in Black Panther merchandise!


Our Man-cave flatscreen TV is surrounded by Black Panther movie posters so much so that the little brother of one of my son's friend marveled at it in astonishment!


Black Panther dog leash... Black Panther shopping bags... Black Panther mask... Black panther piggy bank... Black Panther wallet... etc. etc. etc. etc.


If you are a regular in this thread the fact remains is...


We chose T'challa...

[Ezyo1000]

i mean.

no one's offering me this gig. we know this is all just hypothetical, right?

my feeling is all the previous writers have contributed great things and all of them have made false steps (in MY opinion). And that will be true of all writers of every story because writers are human and nothing made by humans is perfect.

I start with Stan and Jack (or whoever came first) and I move forward from there, pruning off anything I think makes the tree unhealthy or ugly. what that 'pruning' would mean will mean different things from writer to writer and reader to reader

I think the x-books and the panther books are a bad fit for a host of reasons. Obviously lots of people disagree with my view. that will be the case with whoever is writing these things. But please never think that any of us, even those writers whose work you hate, are doing any of this "on a whim."

Everyone is doing their best and should be dealt with as such.

Also, just because I'd move Ororo from being his wife and queen doesn't mean she's gone from his life or doesn't influence him or even invoke all the complex feelings. it also doesn't mean i can't give you somebody much BETTER for him to pair up with.

we don't sign onto these books so we can just continue whatever the previous team was doing. We sign up to tell the stories WE want to tell if Marvel will let us.

Assume the good. No one gets into comics because they don't love them.

See i don't think it's an issue of people getting into comics who don't love comic's themselves, however, I think there are people who get Characters they don't have love for and start telling stories they want to tell that don't work for the Character, or are for the benefit of characters they DO have love for and hopes they get to write them, they end up sideling or chumping the title Character or saddling them with a story that doesn't work for their mythos abd does damage that has to be rerconned out but is still around and will be remembered.

That's Coates currently. I'll out it this way, originally Coates was going to only write 13 issues before Marvel changed they deal to extend it. In interviews, he explicitly stated that long time fans wouldn't likely like his take because it wasn't meant to elevate T'Challa or Wakanda. And that interviewer was left in such an awkward position he just kinda stumbled along the lines of "well you gotta do what you gotta do" essentially.

The ending of his season 1 was T'Challa losing power and a constitution being put in place, and the MA getting the jabari lands.. after he gets dragged through the mud abd blamed for the issues (which when Gay writes the mini, turns out the issue is the MA are at fault) that occurred abd the Royals are made to look bad for the Ma to look more sympathetic while ignoring what they did.

This has been the trend with every person Coates had brought on save Narcisse and Browne. And no one assumed the worst until Coates gave people a reason to do so which started from the get go when it took him 4 interviews to actually start saying the things he did like about T'Challa, and even then it was followed by .ore of what he didn't like..

So again it's not about a lack of love for comic's, but a lack of love for certain Characters

[Marvell2100]

It's time for new blood for BP. It's like a dark cloud has been over this solo since Coates began and it show no signs of letting up.

Nothing positive has happened for BP and Wakanda and Coates has altered the past and present so badly and there's little hope for the future with him still writing.

At this point, Storm has to go. The next BP writer is not going to pick up on any of the story beats Coates has with her. At best it's going to be a long distance love affair. I don't want anymore X-involvement, speculation about Krakoa, what will Storm do etc. Give him a LI from his own mythos and move forward.

Whether it's Redjack(my choice) or whoever comes next, retcon any damage Coates has done and let's get past the last 4 years of crap.

[Redjack]

See i don't think it's an issue of people getting into comics who don't love comic's themselves, however, I think there are people who get Characters they don't have love for and start telling stories they want to tell that don't work for the Character, or are for the benefit of characters they DO have love for and hopes they get to write them, they end up sideling or chumping the title Character or saddling them with a story that doesn't work for their mythos abd does damage that has to be rerconned out but is still around and will be remembered.

That's Coates currently. I'll out it this way, originally Coates was going to only write 13 issues before Marvel changed they deal to extend it. In interviews, he explicitly stated that long time fans wouldn't likely like his take because it wasn't meant to elevate T'Challa or Wakanda. And that interviewer was left in such an awkward position he just kinda stumbled along the lines of "well you gotta do what you gotta do" essentially.

The ending of his season 1 was T'Challa losing power and a constitution being put in place, and the MA getting the jabari lands.. after he gets dragged through the mud abd blamed for the issues (which when Gay writes the mini, turns out the issue is the MA are at fault) that occurred abd the Royals are made to look bad for the Ma to look more sympathetic while ignoring what they did.

This has been the trend with every person Coates had brought on save Narcisse and Browne. And no one assumed the worst until Coates gave people a reason to do so which started from the get go when it took him 4 interviews to actually start saying the things he did like about T'Challa, and even then it was followed by .ore of what he didn't like..

So again it's not about a lack of love for comic's, but a lack of love for certain Characters

Hmmm.

Well. That's disheartening. I could never write a book with Magneto as the star because i hate Magneto. I couldn't write him without that coming through so I'd never try.

My BP would have both T'Challa and Shuri as the focus. Lots of Wakanda (Kirby-Hudlin-style, though). Basically a Priest-Aaron characterization of our King and a lot of new faces (or old ones remixed). Yes, two new love interests that are neither Ororo, Monica OR Nakia.

I always had a fix for Wakanda's bad behavior during colonialism (and other world traumas) but it's nothing like what's been presented thus far. This conversation has given me an awesome idea for Killmonger that would make both 616 and MCU folks happy. Really, I'd try to do with the book what the TV Justice League did with their mythology i.e. take everything that's awesome and ignore everything that isn't to get down to the core.

Every comic book issue is someone's first so I'd want the book to be new reader-friendly.

I have to say, I hated the rape camp thing. All that stuff killed the book for me, overall, for a long time. There were some nice characters and some interesting political takes but Wakanda not being African Elite Utopia is not for me.

[Paul Muad'Dib]

All the NEW things they love about BP… WWO already did. FACT$! Let’s be totally honest. Who would win best BP story if WWO was included? They wouldn’t stand a chance.

A 100% guarantee was made… (long b4 the movie) not 75% or 50%... but a one hunned percent guarantee was made stating that “no one could compete with the overall story of WWO”. Who can make a 100% guarantee? Then deliver. Only the true king could make such a claim. Only the most qualified… They couldn’t compete so they took the concepts from WWO & claimed them as their own. Shame on them.

Seriously, i'm not buggin-out! WWO is the only comic in the world with a real legitimate gripe w/ all things BP.

A quick reminder of the state of things...



Geez, even the above-the-knee stockings ^^^^^^



W. W. O. 2015



Now, the 100% challenge still stands. All they have to do is create a better BP. Better than WWO. Who can do it?

[XPac]

See i don't think it's an issue of people getting into comics who don't love comic's themselves, however, I think there are people who get Characters they don't have love for and start telling stories they want to tell that don't work for the Character, or are for the benefit of characters they DO have love for and hopes they get to write them, they end up sideling or chumping the title Character or saddling them with a story that doesn't work for their mythos abd does damage that has to be rerconned out but is still around and will be remembered.

That's Coates currently. I'll out it this way, originally Coates was going to only write 13 issues before Marvel changed they deal to extend it. In interviews, he explicitly stated that long time fans wouldn't likely like his take because it wasn't meant to elevate T'Challa or Wakanda. And that interviewer was left in such an awkward position he just kinda stumbled along the lines of "well you gotta do what you gotta do" essentially.

The ending of his season 1 was T'Challa losing power and a constitution being put in place, and the MA getting the jabari lands.. after he gets dragged through the mud abd blamed for the issues (which when Gay writes the mini, turns out the issue is the MA are at fault) that occurred abd the Royals are made to look bad for the Ma to look more sympathetic while ignoring what they did.

This has been the trend with every person Coates had brought on save Narcisse and Browne. And no one assumed the worst until Coates gave people a reason to do so which started from the get go when it took him 4 interviews to actually start saying the things he did like about T'Challa, and even then it was followed by .ore of what he didn't like..

So again it's not about a lack of love for comic's, but a lack of love for certain Characters

Can we get a link to this interview where he states his take isn't meant to elevate T'Challa or Wakanda? Because I'm pretty skeptical he would flat out say that when promoting his book even if that's what he thought.

[Ezyo1000]

Hmmm.

Well. That's disheartening. I could never write a book with Magneto as the star because i hate Magneto. I couldn't write him without that coming through so I'd never try.

My BP would have both T'Challa and Shuri as the focus. Lots of Wakanda (Kirby-Hudlin-style, though). Basically a Priest-Aaron characterization of our King and a lot of new faces (or old ones remixed). Yes, two new love interests that are neither Ororo, Monica OR Nakia.

I always had a fix for Wakanda's bad behavior during colonialism (and other world traumas) but it's nothing like what's been presented thus far. This conversation has given me an awesome idea for Killmonger that would make both 616 and MCU folks happy. Really, I'd try to do with the book what the TV Justice League did with their mythology i.e. take everything that's awesome and ignore everything that isn't to get down to the core.

Every comic book issue is someone's first so I'd want the book to be new reader-friendly.

I have to say, I hated the rape camp thing. All that stuff killed the book for me, overall, for a long time. There were some nice characters and some interesting political takes but Wakanda not being African Elite Utopia is not for me.

Maj called it from day one. First interview he heard what Coates had to say about T'Challa and knew it wasn't right.

Whatever people think about us BP fans, we don't just hate Coates because we don't like him. We give credit where credit is due. But it's clear he doesn't have the love for the Character. Not like Hudlin, not like you, bot even like Priest who initially didn't like T'Challa but came to respect and like the Character when he started researching him sbd learning his history.

As for the rest of your post. I see that you take your work seriously abd want to do good by the mythos. Trim the fat as Flex put it.

I know it's not exact, but whst your describing seems similar to kinda what we saw in BP quest abd i respect that.

Abd yes the rape camps, forced misogyny and gender inequality, meeting with known despots on how to deal with a rebellion and being tricked, Shuri telling victim's of rape thst they should of accepted their fate and died for the Golden city.. I could keep going but there was so much F'ed up stuff with the arc and the scary thing is thst was just s1. We are 3 seasons in and it's just kept getting worse

[Ezyo1000]

Can we get a link to this interview where he states his take isn't meant to elevate T'Challa or Wakanda? Because I'm pretty skeptical he would flat out say that when promoting his book even if that's what he thought.

I'll see if I can find it. I don't remember if it was a podcast style or what. I may have to check the old BP thread to see of I can find it there