Black Panther Appreciation 2019

[chief12d]

I saw Shuri holding a spear during the final battle in BP1 so I don't think it's crazy to assume she got basic training. But I doubt that she was given near the same level of preparation for the kingship. T'Challa shadowed his father his entire life and was pushed in every possible way mentally and physically to take over Wakanda, while she probably got the basic stuff for self-protection while choosing to focus on tech.

And I think it's pretty obvious that while she has a great scientific mind, she'd probably not want to do the diplomacy, fighting, and administration that T'Challa does on a regular basis because she wasn't pushed in that direction. In that case it wouldn't be sexism, it'd probably be because she's the younger sibling. Hell the way T'Chaka killed his own brother you'd think N'Jobu didn't have any combat abilities either lol.

It could be a matter of putting all your eggs in one basket since the Wakadan nobility is small and highly elite, maybe it's better to raise one really good royal candidate as opposed to several moderately good ones. Doesn't mean the secondborns like Shuri don't get investment in their talents, but it does result in different skillsets.

But she's still a kid and has a few more years in the MCU so it's possible that she might grow into it as T'Chadwick gears up to leave. I could see Coogler mixing her comic griot powers with a personal habit to give her some combat potential. And theoretically speaking I guess she could take her role as princess more seriously as Wakanda faces more threats. But I don't see Disney going for it unless they plan to have BP die within the MCU rather than just retiring from active superheroics.

Which I prefer tbh, because I think Shuri's character arc should be about more than claiming her brother's title. Coogler opened up all types of stories for her when M'Baku confronted her during the ceremony about how she scoffed at tradition. I'd want him to build on that and have her embrace the mysticism of Wakandan civilization rather than rejecting it. If we ever see a Shuri BP, it'd probably be when we start getting alternate universes and time travel, which I'd down wit.

[Blind Wedjat]

This talk of Shuri being BP or should have been trained to be BP went on for too long lol.

She wasn't trained. Girl was born in 2000. She was only about 8 years old when T'Challa had already been BP. Obviously being the genius she is she must have shown it at a very young age. By that time even if T'Chaka tried to train her in the BP arts, she didn't want it and showed more promise in a laboratory. Wakanda was at least progressive enough to let her do that. Just put two and two together, some of you.

There are only two people at the moment that qualify to be BP, which include Okoye (second best Wakandan warrior after T'Challa) and Nakia (champion of the River Tribe and word class spy/war dog). Those are the only two sensible choices. Shuri would have to redefine what being BP is for her suddenly become it.

And it wasn't a mistake to not train her either. Wakanda put on the front that they were a poverty stricken country and that Klaue stole all of their Vibranium and gave it to Ultron. After Sokovia, no one had any reason to assassinate T'Chaka. Zemo did it for selfish reasons, and had he not, Killmonger probably wouldn't have attacked either. They definitely have the best environment and healthcare so disease shouldn't be an issue. Likewise they weren't concerned with attacking the rest of the world.

If Shuri didn't want to be trained, they had no reason to force it on her.

[MindofShadow]

This talk of Shuri being BP or should have been trained to be BP went on for too long lol.

She wasn't trained. Girl was born in 2000. She was only about 8 years old when T'Challa had already been BP. Obviously being the genius she is she must have shown it at a very young age. By that time even if T'Chaka tried to train her in the BP arts, she didn't want it and showed more promise in a laboratory. Wakanda was at least progressive enough to let her do that. Just put two and two together, some of you.

There are only two people at the moment that qualify to be BP, which include Okoye (second best Wakandan warrior after T'Challa) and Nakia (champion of the River Tribe and word class spy/war dog). Those are the only two sensible choices. Shuri would have to redefine what being BP is for her suddenly become it.

And it wasn't a mistake to not train her either. Wakanda put on the front that they were a poverty stricken country and that Klaue stole all of their Vibranium and gave it to Ultron. After Sokovia, no one had any reason to assassinate T'Chaka. Zemo did it for selfish reasons, and had he not, Killmonger probably wouldn't have attacked either. They definitely have the best environment and healthcare so disease shouldn't be an issue. Likewise they weren't concerned with attacking the rest of the world.

If Shuri didn't want to be trained, they had no reason to force it on her.

I am still not 100% clear how the transition to BP works when the king ages out.

Is there another tournament style ritual? Does the King simply choose a warrior similar to how the other tribes had an elder and a warrior at the coronation?

Also, if the say... merchant tribe decided to challenge at T'challa's coronation and won... does that warrior become king or the elder he represented? Does the elder become king while the warrior becomes Black Panther?

Also, I would have assumed that the other tribes could have also challenged Killmonger after he killed T'challa. Maybe they were too shell shocked at what happened.

Also another thought... I wonder if the lack of HSH will be a plot point in BP2. The world is much more dangerous than it has ever been, the rest of the world is catching up to Wakanda technology (as stated by W'kabi)... I wonder if the elders will want T'challa to pull back on any out-of-the-country warrior type stuff because they have no black PAnther replacement ready. If the HSH takes like... 20 years to mature, they need T'challa to last that long lol

[XPac]

This talk of Shuri being BP or should have been trained to be BP went on for too long lol.

She wasn't trained. Girl was born in 2000. She was only about 8 years old when T'Challa had already been BP. Obviously being the genius she is she must have shown it at a very young age. By that time even if T'Chaka tried to train her in the BP arts, she didn't want it and showed more promise in a laboratory. Wakanda was at least progressive enough to let her do that. Just put two and two together, some of you.

There are only two people at the moment that qualify to be BP, which include Okoye (second best Wakandan warrior after T'Challa) and Nakia (champion of the River Tribe and word class spy/war dog). Those are the only two sensible choices. Shuri would have to redefine what being BP is for her suddenly become it.

And it wasn't a mistake to not train her either. Wakanda put on the front that they were a poverty stricken country and that Klaue stole all of their Vibranium and gave it to Ultron. After Sokovia, no one had any reason to assassinate T'Chaka. Zemo did it for selfish reasons, and had he not, Killmonger probably wouldn't have attacked either. They definitely have the best environment and healthcare so disease shouldn't be an issue. Likewise they weren't concerned with attacking the rest of the world.

If Shuri didn't want to be trained, they had no reason to force it on her.

Why exactly can't Shuri be trained as both a fighter and a scientest like T'Challa though? I think the point of BOTH Black Panthers isn't that they're necessarily just good at one thing (like say a Shang Chi or a Reed Richards). They're seemingly good at pretty much anything.

And really, I don't think they would allow Okoye to rule Wakanda over Shuri regardless of how qualifies she is. You are OBVIOUSLY going to want to keep control of the country within your family blood line. That's the point of a monarchy.

As far as it not being a mistake to train prepare her to rule again let me point out that T'Chaka was murdered pretty recently, and T'Challa basically died twice in the last year. T'Challa has no children, so right now Shuri is the only heir to the throne. At what point should Wakanda have the foresight to actually prepare for that possibility? It SHOULD have been decades ago, but in the LEAST it should have been at T"Chaka's death.

This is why nations today have REAL governments and even real monarchies which established lines of sucession. If the president gets killed, the vice president becomes president whether he feels like it or not. Running a nation is an important enough matter NOT to be decided on by personal whims.

[XPac]

I am still not 100% clear how the transition to BP works when the king ages out.

Is there another tournament style ritual? Does the King simply choose a warrior similar to how the other tribes had an elder and a warrior at the coronation?

Also, if the say... merchant tribe decided to challenge at T'challa's coronation and won... does that warrior become king or the elder he represented? Does the elder become king while the warrior becomes Black Panther?

Also, I would have assumed that the other tribes could have also challenged Killmonger after he killed T'challa. Maybe they were too shell shocked at what happened.

Also another thought... I wonder if the lack of HSH will be a plot point in BP2. The world is much more dangerous than it has ever been, the rest of the world is catching up to Wakanda technology (as stated by W'kabi)... I wonder if the elders will want T'challa to pull back on any out-of-the-country warrior type stuff because they have no black PAnther replacement ready. If the HSH takes like... 20 years to mature, they need T'challa to last that long lol

Truthfully though the herb is somewhat less necessary because of the suit.

Granted T'Challa is pretty darn beastly even without the suit, but you can still have a pretty darn formitable Black Panther even without the enhanced stats the herb gives of the suits force push abilities. And if Shuri really felt like it, she almost certainly make an Iron Man level suit. Not saying I prefer Black Panther become an Iron Man mind you... just saying if the hsh was no longer available to BP's after T'Challa, you can still have a powerful tech enhanced protector in Wakanda. The tech to a degree makes the hsh less necessary, at least in regards to powering up a Wakandan protector.

It's possible the herb has other benefits, like some sort of connection to Bast, that tech obviuosly can't replicate though.

[Mike_Murdock]

Truthfully though the herb is somewhat less necessary because of the suit.

I think that's a valid point. Granted, it's one of the complaints I have about the suit undermining the Heart-Shaped Herb, but that's my own pet peeve. I certainly think they could go a more technological route if Shuri were Black Panther (not that she will be, I'm just saying if).

BTW, I just saw that an Intergalactic Empire of Wakanda Part 3 TPB was announced. That tells me that this story is likely to last until issue 18 or so, although I'm not sure it'll stay in space the entire time. I know people are just wanting it to end, but I was very worried the ending would be rushed at this point and I'm hoping it won't be now.

[XPac]

I saw Shuri holding a spear during the final battle in BP1 so I don't think it's crazy to assume she got basic training. But I doubt that she was given near the same level of preparation for the kingship. T'Challa shadowed his father his entire life and was pushed in every possible way mentally and physically to take over Wakanda, while she probably got the basic stuff for self-protection while choosing to focus on tech.

And I think it's pretty obvious that while she has a great scientific mind, she'd probably not want to do the diplomacy, fighting, and administration that T'Challa does on a regular basis because she wasn't pushed in that direction. In that case it wouldn't be sexism, it'd probably be because she's the younger sibling. Hell the way T'Chaka killed his own brother you'd think N'Jobu didn't have any combat abilities either lol.

It could be a matter of putting all your eggs in one basket since the Wakadan nobility is small and highly elite, maybe it's better to raise one really good royal candidate as opposed to several moderately good ones. Doesn't mean the secondborns like Shuri don't get investment in their talents, but it does result in different skillsets.

But she's still a kid and has a few more years in the MCU so it's possible that she might grow into it as T'Chadwick gears up to leave. I could see Coogler mixing her comic griot powers with a personal habit to give her some combat potential. And theoretically speaking I guess she could take her role as princess more seriously as Wakanda faces more threats. But I don't see Disney going for it unless they plan to have BP die within the MCU rather than just retiring from active superheroics.

Which I prefer tbh, because I think Shuri's character arc should be about more than claiming her brother's title. Coogler opened up all types of stories for her when M'Baku confronted her during the ceremony about how she scoffed at tradition. I'd want him to build on that and have her embrace the mysticism of Wakandan civilization rather than rejecting it. If we ever see a Shuri BP, it'd probably be when we start getting alternate universes and time travel, which I'd down wit.

If (and it's a BIG IF) the plan is for Shuri to eventually don the BP mantle at some point in the future, then I think the point would be that she's not ready for the role and that she would need to grow into it. That would be her character arc. T'Challa was the one that was groomed for the role and ready to take it day one. Shuri is a different story entirely, which would be the point... you don't want to tell the same story twice. You want her journey to be different. Her journey would be overcoming her own doubts and the doubts of others, and proving she could do this. She likely does have some growing up to do, and this would be an obvious vehicle for that. The fact that she's the very unlikely Black Panther I imagine would actually be the draw in telling that story.

Also, she would likely be very different BP due to powerset. With no hsh he would have to rely a lot more on tech.

Course, this is all hypothetical. She may never need to take the role.

[XPac]

I think that's a valid point. Granted, it's one of the complaints I have about the suit undermining the Heart-Shaped Herb, but that's my own pet peeve. I certainly think they could go a more technological route if Shuri were Black Panther (not that she will be, I'm just saying if).

BTW, I just saw that an Intergalactic Empire of Wakanda Part 3 TPB was announced. That tells me that this story is likely to last until issue 18 or so, although I'm not sure it'll stay in space the entire time. I know people are just wanting it to end, but I was very worried the ending would be rushed at this point and I'm hoping it won't be now.

Though I'm a little surprised that the arc is as long as it it (I guess because his previous arcs sort of conditioned me to expect it to be 12 issues), it REALLY needed to be longer to wrap up everything. So I'm glad he's not rushing towards a finale. Since it's entirely possible we may never revisit this place, everything pretty much needs to be wrapped up.

[MindofShadow]

I think that's a valid point. Granted, it's one of the complaints I have about the suit undermining the Heart-Shaped Herb, but that's my own pet peeve. I certainly think they could go a more technological route if Shuri were Black Panther (not that she will be, I'm just saying if).

Three Doras almost had a super powered Killmonger with the suit beat. Now granted, Doras are superb warriors, especially Okoye, but still.

A grenade launcher and a rhino temporarily knocked the crap out of a super powered T'challa. He was also getting overwhealmed by the outriders. (and Thanos knocked him into next month but we will give him a pass on that one lol)

The technology makes it so they aren't completely screwed without a super powered point man, but, with how much stronger the rest of the world is getting and the escalation of threats facing Wakanda, they need both, badly, IMO

[XPac]

Three Doras almost had a super powered Killmonger with the suit beat. Now granted, Doras are superb warriors, especially Okoye, but still.

A grenade launcher and a rhino temporarily knocked the crap out of a super powered T'challa. He was also getting overwhealmed by the outriders. (and Thanos knocked him into next month but we will give him a pass on that one lol)

The technology makes it so they aren't completely screwed without a super powered point man, but, with how much stronger the rest of the world is getting and the escalation of threats facing Wakanda, they need both, badly, IMO

Having both is NICE... but you technically don't need it if push comes to shove.

Iron Man in all likelihood could probably handle 3 Doras if he had to. His armor more than makes up for the lack of enhanced stats that the heart shaped herb offers. And if Shuri absolutely HAD to, she could likely make Iron Man level armor that allows her to do that. Mind you, that's not my personal preference as I do believe BP tech should enhance skill rather than replace it... but as far as internal story logic, it's a viable option if the hsh can't be recovered.

In fact you probably want an Iron Man level suit lying around somewhere in your Wakandan closet even if you still have the heart shaped herb incase you some Hulk or Thanos level threats come knocking at your door.

[DigiCom]

The real question is... how often are the tribal challenges held? Is it a periodic thing (say, every X years), or was there only a challenge made because T'Chaka was dead?

When you get down to it, we only saw two. One was in preparation for T'Challa's coronation, and the other was clearly unplanned. It seems to me that the challenges only occur when the throne is either vacant, or a "worthy" challenger (that is, one of noble blood, which is itself a bit unfair) requests one. Given that Wakanda was at peace for so long, it's entirely possible that there hadn't been a challenge for decades, so T'Chaka hadn't needed to fight.

(If someone had, it's possible that a proxy would have been allowed, but by no means certain).

Regarding Shuri as Black Panther. Without referencing her comics history, can anyone give me a good reason why she should be made Black Panther?

[XPac]

The real question is... how often are the tribal challenges held? Is it a periodic thing (say, every X years), or was there only a challenge made because T'Chaka was dead?

When you get down to it, we only saw two. One was in preparation for T'Challa's coronation, and the other was clearly unplanned. It seems to me that the challenges only occur when the throne is either vacant, or a "worthy" challenger (that is, one of noble blood, which is itself a bit unfair) requests one. Given that Wakanda was at peace for so long, it's entirely possible that there hadn't been a challenge for decades, so T'Chaka hadn't needed to fight.

(If someone had, it's possible that a proxy would have been allowed, but by no means certain).

Regarding Shuri as Black Panther. Without referencing her comics history, can anyone give me a good reason why she should be made Black Panther?

I won't go so far as to say she SHOULD be made the Black Panther.

But if we want potential reasons why they might decide to go that route, apart from the obvious reason that it's what happened in the comics...

It's the same reason we have a Superwoman and Bat Girl and She-Hulk. And the same reason Hudlin make her Black Panther to begin with. You get another super hero out of an existing franchise. Yes we have a Shuri comic today without her being Black Panther (well, she sort of is in the comics but that obviusly won't last), but I don't think she would have gotten to that point had she not become the Black Panther in the first place).

Secondly, Letitia is in her 20's while Chad is in his 40's. Potentially Letitia can act as a legacy character down the line and continue on making BP movies after Chadwich moves on, the way they might have to do with RDJ and Iron Man. In comics characters never age so legacy characters are mostly just window dressing. But in the movies actors do in fact age. If the MCU doesn't reboot or recast, then legacy characters are the way to keep IPs going.

[chief12d]

If (and it's a BIG IF) the plan is for Shuri to eventually don the BP mantle at some point in the future, then I think the point would be that she's not ready for the role and that she would need to grow into it. That would be her character arc. T'Challa was the one that was groomed for the role and ready to take it day one. Shuri is a different story entirely, which would be the point... you don't want to tell the same story twice. You want her journey to be different. Her journey would be overcoming her own doubts and the doubts of others, and proving she could do this. She likely does have some growing up to do, and this would be an obvious vehicle for that. The fact that she's the very unlikely Black Panther I imagine would actually be the draw in telling that story.

Also, she would likely be very different BP due to powerset. With no hsh he would have to rely a lot more on tech.

Course, this is all hypothetical. She may never need to take the role.

I understand that there's a unique character arc in her growing into the position, I just think there are better stories that could be told with her than that IMO

[MindofShadow]

The real question is... how often are the tribal challenges held? Is it a periodic thing (say, every X years), or was there only a challenge made because T'Chaka was dead?

When you get down to it, we only saw two. One was in preparation for T'Challa's coronation, and the other was clearly unplanned. It seems to me that the challenges only occur when the throne is either vacant, or a "worthy" challenger (that is, one of noble blood, which is itself a bit unfair) requests one. Given that Wakanda was at peace for so long, it's entirely possible that there hadn't been a challenge for decades, so T'Chaka hadn't needed to fight.

(If someone had, it's possible that a proxy would have been allowed, but by no means certain).

It seems the "path to the throne" only happens when king dies.

What we don't know is what happens when the king ages out of being Black Panther. They are clearly separate per Civil War.

Regarding Shuri as Black Panther. Without referencing her comics history, can anyone give me a good reason why she should be made Black Panther?

Just that she is theoretically next in line per bloodline if something happened to T'challa before he produced an heir.

[XPac]

I understand that there's a unique character arc in her growing into the position, I just think there are better stories that could be told with her than that IMO

I don't disagree. Honestly if T'CHalla is still around I prefer him being Black Panther and Shuri doing her own thing.

However, if they want to do a story where Shuri temporarily takes the mantle, then she has a viable arc to tell.

Conversely, if Chadwick, who is in his early 40's right now, decides a decade from now or whatever that he wants to hang up his tights, then Shuri is a viable option to keep the franchise going if they opt not to recast.

Again, it's just an option. Making Shuri BP isn't something they flat out NEED to do.