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  1. #7801
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Realdealholy View Post
    “Hardline” Shuri could be found in the Ironheart book. Very refreshing and I really wish the “Shuri” book leaned towards a similar interpretation of the character.



    If I may ask, have you read the Priest run of the Black Panther books? That run had a great balance of T’Challa being a physical and political force, while being simultaneously being pushed to the brink mentally and emotionally.

    Obviously no writer is expected to write exactly or even similarly to Priest (every writer will have their own interpretations of the character), but if there’s one thing Coates T’Challa lacks imho is that balance. He’s def pushed emotionally and mentally from various angles, but is he shown as a physical force? I’m can’t say he is (the intergalactic empire arc is trying to change that, but the fact that T’Challa didn’t know who he was for most of the arc sours things for many longtime readers, I suspect). Politically, his presence is definitely there but it feels more subtle and/or subdued this time around.

    A big draw of T’Challa is him being that (sometimes overt) physical / political force who is also a ruler of a nation. Coates aims for a subtle approach to that (I think) and it does work in some cases (T’Challa and Thunderball is a great example of that, and I personally think that T’Challa convincing Changamire to switch sides was a good example too) but the problem is that the aforementioned force, that emphatic presence, from previous runs isn’t there. T’Challa is a king, and sometimes being emphatic is part of the job (and creates cool, if not great narrative moments).

    MCU T’Challa managed to achieve that balance, though from a different angle. Ultimately, I think Coates just sees T’Challa very differently from a good amount of longtime fans (myself included), which explains the overall reception his run gets in this thread.
    Shuri is pretty tricky because not only do we have a teenage girl in the MCU, but on top of that because of the nature of the character she sort of falls under the category of Disney Princess Now. And there's a degree of responsibility that I think comes with that. I definately think we can get an older more hardline Shuri than we're getting in the solo book... but I don't think we'll really get the version we got in Hickmans run or in the earlier parts of Coates run again. I think now that she's not just a supporting character, she'll need to be somewhat "protected" (or watered down or whatever you want to look at it). Which is sort of unfortunate since I enjoyed the more hardline Shuri... but I sort of understand why they're moving her in the direction they are.

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  3. #7803
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    Thing is, most of is posters here have zero issue discussing the intricate Layers of T'Challa. No one ever said once that T'Challa must be stoic and show zero emotions and be this brooding character.

    Coates in S1 constantly said T'Challa was too distracted and made characters say he didn't care about his people and that he resented them. My favorite counter to that nonsense is this scan.




    If you want to have a conversation about the complexity and coolness in all aspects of T'Challa lets have that conversation, but to come in here claiming us posters only want to see brute strength angry black man tropes is not going to get you very far and quite the insult considering we have seen what a writer who wants to elevate T'Challa cab do. And it's not all violence at all.

    I dunno where you get the idea that we want some angry black man devoid of emotion. You keep bringing up the MCU so I think you have the BP appreciation forum confused with the racist unfans and haters who come up with a million excuses for why T'Challa beat their favorite heroes at the box office and who's movie because a cultural movement. Because literally none of the posters here, have ever remotely suggested that he be devoid of emotion. What has been criticised in terms of his emotions are when the story drives and demands he act out of character to fit the narrative while trying (and failing) to com off as complex
    You realize that TíChalla had practically the same conversation with Thunderball, only he was threatening him, too?

    As far as my initial assertion about angry black man and brute tropes, one of you here already directly implied it, before he outright stated it. How did I ever misinterpret that. @Cville Iím looking at you.

    Someone posted a scan of TíChalla outwitting Black Widow. I enjoyed it. It gave me a rush. I then posted an instance where I personally TíChalla gave me the same feeling under Coates. Because I am quite aware of the overall consensus about his work here (Iím also aware he doesnít have many notable action scenes) I made a point of asking if he had any BDE moments other than the stereotypical angry brute of a black man? That doesnít mean I think heís been used as nothing other than a brute or angry black man. I will note that superhero comics are brutish by nature. Good guys put on masks and costumes to punch, kick and fight bad guys. Do you not get any of this? I asked for more examples of his BDE on display as well as asking what is it about Coatesí TíChalla that is most notably NOT TíChalla? You all answered how you answered. That isnít on me. I am open to more of you favorite instances of his BDE tho.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blind Wedjat View Post
    This is what happens when someone hasn't read Priest's or Hudlin's runs, sees scans of T'Challa from said run and assumes both writers depicted T'Challa as an angry black man of all things.
    Funny enough, my friend I have the first two trade paperbacks of Priestís run. And Iíve much more online. I started reading comics in the middle of Hudlinís run. I have every issue. Some I eve have two of. I have all of the crossover FF issues as well. What issues Iíve personally read isnít the topic of discussion. The general consensus of the current run and how this TíChalla stacks up against TíChalla of old. I thought it was clear enough that I was doing a compare and contrast. My bad...

  4. #7804
    Astonishing Member Cville's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by terrancejameson View Post
    You realize that TíChalla had practically the same conversation with Thunderball, only he was threatening him, too?

    As far as my initial assertion about angry black man and brute tropes, one of you here already directly implied it, before he outright stated it. How did I ever misinterpret that. @Cville Iím looking at you.

    Someone posted a scan of TíChalla outwitting Black Widow. I enjoyed it. It gave me a rush. I then posted an instance where I personally TíChalla gave me the same feeling under Coates. Because I am quite aware of the overall consensus about his work here (Iím also aware he doesnít have many notable action scenes) I made a point of asking if he had any BDE moments other than the stereotypical angry brute of a black man? That doesnít mean I think heís been used as nothing other than a brute or angry black man. I will note that superhero comics are brutish by nature. Good guys put on masks and costumes to punch, kick and fight bad guys. Do you not get any of this? I asked for more examples of his BDE on display as well as asking what is it about Coatesí TíChalla that is most notably NOT TíChalla? You all answered how you answered. That isnít on me. I am open to more of you favorite instances of his BDE tho.

    Funny enough, my friend I have the first two trade paperbacks of Priestís run. And Iíve much more online. I started reading comics in the middle of Hudlinís run. I have every issue. Some I eve have two of. I have all of the crossover FF issues as well. What issues Iíve personally read isnít the topic of discussion. The general consensus of the current run and how this TíChalla stacks up against TíChalla of old. I thought it was clear enough that I was doing a compare and contrast. My bad...
    Only person you need to look at is yourself. You're the one on the black tropes argument. All I said was the ThunderBall scene didnt have the same energy as the Black Widow scene because one was advisaral and the other wasn't, it was just people two people talking. I already said I didn't understand your BDE phase and you said you should have been more clear for what you were looking for, so I dont know why your bringing it up again.
    Last edited by Cville; 09-16-2019 at 11:02 AM.

  5. #7805
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    How's everybody doing? I haven't been year in like a year.

  6. #7806
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cville View Post
    Only person you need to look at is yourself. You're the one on the black tropes argument. All I said was the ThunderBall scene didnt have the same energy as the Black Widow scene because one was advisaral and the other wasn't, it was just people two people talking. I already said I didn't understand your BDE phase and you said you should have been more clear for what you were looking for, so I dont know why your bringing it up again.
    No. I’m looking at you and I’m gonna keep looking at you. It was your misinterpretation of my message that changed the course of conversation. While you weren’t the only one to chime in, your responses were textbook imo. To continue the discussion without your role in would be disingenuous. I would never take your voice from you. I did disagree with your idea that T’Challa’s exchange with Thunderball wasn’t adversarial in nature. How could it be anything else? T’CHALLA JUST BUSTED HIM AND EVERYONE ELSE WRAPPED UP IN A SCHEME TO KIDNAP ONE OR MORE OF HIS PEOPLE. Are you seriously suggesting that T’Challa was offering him Wakanda’s heart shaped herb tea and crumpets? Are you absolutely sure you’re attuned to what’s being discussed?

  7. #7807
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    Quote Originally Posted by phumgano View Post
    How's everybody doing? I haven't been year in like a year.

    Hello, my friend. Welcome back from vacation.

  8. #7808
    Astonishing Member Cville's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by terrancejameson View Post
    No. Iím looking at you and Iím gonna keep looking at you. It was your misinterpretation of my message that changed the course of conversation. While you werenít the only one to chime in, your responses were textbook imo. To continue the discussion without your role in would be disingenuous. I would never take your voice from you. I did disagree with your idea that TíChallaís exchange with Thunderball wasnít adversarial in nature. How could it be anything else? TíCHALLA JUST BUSTED HIM AND EVERYONE ELSE WRAPPED UP IN A SCHEME TO KIDNAP ONE OR MORE OF HIS PEOPLE. Are you seriously suggesting that TíChalla was offering him Wakandaís heart shaped herb tea and crumpets? Are you absolutely sure youíre attuned to whatís being discussed?
    I personally dont know why Thunderball is there. Seems like bad storytelling to me. The scene you posted is not advisaral. Tchalla doesn't condescend, insult, or threaten him. He talks to him like a colleague. The scenes with Shuri and Thunderball are.

    In order for it to be, Thunderball would have to have no choice, but to do what Tchalla says. Essentially making him a slave.
    Last edited by Cville; 09-16-2019 at 11:58 AM.

  9. #7809
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    I'm getting deja vu.

    A Storm fan comes into this thread having never read BP before Coates and only having read a handful of TNC's work to tell all of you how wrong you all are about T'challa's character and how they know WAY more than you in a weirdly hostile manner whist hiding behind a straw man. Now where have I seen this before?

    Oh that's right! It happens every few months, right now it's Terrance, before that it was RLMAAR or whatever

    The idea that people in this thread want T'challa to be a mindless brute is hilarious.

    The idea that any criticism of Coates' portrayal of African people in regards to negative stereotypes is just "hate" it hilarious.

    The idea that T'challa has been been portrayed as "an angry black man" in his other runs and that's why people in this thread like the character is especially funny because it can be disproved by reading literally any other run focusing on T'challa.

    Anyway.. Back to the positive stuff.




  10. #7810
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    Astonishing tales #7.

    August 1971.


  11. #7811
    Extraordinary Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Realdealholy View Post
    ďHardlineĒ Shuri could be found in the Ironheart book. Very refreshing and I really wish the ďShuriĒ book leaned towards a similar interpretation of the character.



    If I may ask, have you read the Priest run of the Black Panther books? That run had a great balance of TíChalla being a physical and political force, while being simultaneously being pushed to the brink mentally and emotionally.

    Obviously no writer is expected to write exactly or even similarly to Priest (every writer will have their own interpretations of the character), but if thereís one thing Coates TíChalla lacks imho is that balance. Heís def pushed emotionally and mentally from various angles, but is he shown as a physical force? Iím canít say he is (the intergalactic empire arc is trying to change that, but the fact that TíChalla didnít know who he was for most of the arc sours things for many longtime readers, I suspect). Politically, his presence is definitely there but it feels more subtle and/or subdued this time around.

    A big draw of TíChalla is him being that (sometimes overt) physical / political force who is also a ruler of a nation. Coates aims for a subtle approach to that (I think) and it does work in some cases (TíChalla and Thunderball is a great example of that, and I personally think that TíChalla convincing Changamire to switch sides was a good example too) but the problem is that the aforementioned force, that emphatic presence, from previous runs isnít there. TíChalla is a king, and sometimes being emphatic is part of the job (and creates cool, if not great narrative moments).


    MCU TíChalla managed to achieve that balance, though from a different angle. Ultimately, I think Coates just sees TíChalla very differently from a good amount of longtime fans (myself included), which explains the overall reception his run gets in this thread.
    Great post realdeal, I agree with what your saying, especially The highlighted portion. The problem too is that T'Challa in Coates book is not allowed to cut loose and be the warrior, King, superhero he's supposed to be. Coates focuses on the scientist angle too hard and as such, made T'Challa very passive and reactive. His mom got blown up and we barely saw any sense of emotion from it. He beat up some goons (midly) and met with despots and ultimately got tricked by them and the reason for meeting them was "to see what they would say" which didn't serve any purpose to the story Except to shade throw. Compare that to priest when T'Challa goes out to figure out what happened to the little girl in the tommorow fund.

    Coates T'Challa lacks real agency and purpose outside of sulking and wishing to be in a lab instead.

    Also welcome back, hopefully you can stay for a bit

  12. #7812
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phumgano View Post
    Astonishing tales #7.

    August 1971.

    I always thought that was an interesting story. In the end after Doom decides to leave, he pondered about the possibility of being allies with T'Challa. And Doom does end up having a relationship of sorts with Doom and Namor. Shame that Doom War and AvX ended that. It was kinda fun.

  13. #7813
    Extraordinary Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    I always thought that was an interesting story. In the end after Doom decides to leave, he pondered about the possibility of being allies with T'Challa. And Doom does end up having a relationship of sorts with Doom and Namor. Shame that Doom War and AvX ended that. It was kinda fun.
    A Marvel's Monarchs story is a missed opportunity to tell a fun story the premise May be hard to get but it would be cool if someone did it.

  14. #7814
    Ultimate Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    A Marvel's Monarchs story is a missed opportunity to tell a fun story the premise May be hard to get but it would be cool if someone did it.
    T'challa and Boltagon: Murder Bros For Life


    F Namor... Boltagon is T'challa new monarch buddy.

    Anyone that rides with you on a surprise murder mission is bro for life.
    Black Panther Appreciation Blog: http://blackpanthermarvel.blogspot.com/

    T'challa's Greatest Comic Book Feats: http://blackpanthermarvel.blogspot.c...her-feats.html

  15. #7815
    Astonishing Member Cville's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    T'challa and Boltagon: Murder Bros For Life


    F Namor... Boltagon is T'challa new monarch buddy.

    Anyone that rides with you on a surprise murder mission is bro for life.
    Lol. No questions asked just bring a shovel.

    Are the Inhumans doing anything lately? Last thing I remember was "Death of Inhumans"

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