Black Panther Appreciation 2019

[Mr MajestiK]

Not being as good as TWS =/= bad lol

Yeesh, that's like saying the action in the Bourne trilogy sucks because it isn't as good as John Wick trilogy.

I'd take the action sequences as a whole in BP over all three IM movies, both GoG, Spider-man, Dr Strange, Thor, Thor 2, both Ant-Man, Hulk, Cap 1, any of the DCEU films, and any of the FoXmen films

It doesn't match TWS, I like Ragnoraks action better than TWS personally, and it probably isn't fair to compare to the 5 avengers films tbh (av, aou, iw, eg, CW) because those are designed for "spectacle" action sequences with multiple characters and powersets.

I also think Russos' action fights with T'challa in CW are massively overrated by this thread outside of the first one in CW. Dude somehow ended up in a headlock by freaking hawkeye lol

I'm not particularly interested in comparing the fight scenes in the e Bourne/Wick movies to BP because they're set in a totally different milieu.

Captain America: Winter Soldier is set in the same shared universe as MCU T'Challa's which is why I made the comparison as I felt it was more appropriate.

Thor Ragnarok, GTOG and all the other MCU movies you mentioned are for the most part, set up within the cosmic arm of the MCU and as such, are really not comparable in this regard.

Visuals are really important and you want to see the heros abilities clearly being shown on the he big screen in a manner that convinces the viewer of said characters martial prowess.

Everyone see's Daredevil as an awesome hand-to-hand combatant via the comics and the Netflix show.

Can the same be said for T'Challa outside of animated features?

Don't get me wrong.

As a total paciage, the BP movie was groundbreaking and a genuine milestone but that doesn't change the fact that seeing T'Challa actually laying the smack down on his enemies with his fighting prowess as opposed to Coates-pushing them away after taking multiple hits to the dome, would be immensely satisfying.

[KingNomarch]

You could actually see the fight in the forest clearly?

Astounding.

There was no problem at my theater

[Ezyo1000]

It's more either/or than you think, because T'Challa is extremely tough. He almost killed one of the world's most feared assassins, easily beat a high-level SHIELD agent, fought Captain America, fought two Wakandan rhinos, fought several aliens in two wars for the fate of mankind, knocked down a guy capable of tussling with the Hulk, and wasn't hurt by a sword strike from Thanos. Really, who would you want him to fight? Who would want to fight him?

The only way to even it out is tech or magic, and they should be the focus of a physical threat main villain, rather than a side. And both can really feel cheap and cliché.

I'm not saying T'Challa shouldn't fight anyone, but they don't have to be about hurting him. Change the dynamics. Do something truly nail biting and compelling to watch. I don't see why he has to be in danger. The collateral damage fallout can be the external conflict, especially for a guy vowing to make things better, and especially for a diplomat who can go anywhere and do almost anything without fearing arrest.

Honestly, this is kinda where I think a revamped Tetu could work. Magic based vs T'Challas tech. You can have the intellectual part of Tetu brought up and play on the whole targeting innocence people and using T'Challas morality against him. He already had that philosophical angle. Its the only thing I could say Coates did of use, and that was basically make Tetu a blank slate for the MCU to use him however fit

[Mr MajestiK]

There was no problem at my theater

That must have been a really unique theatre considering the fact that a majority of people who saw the movie in theaters worldwide complained of the murkiness of the self same scenes.

You may have run across comments to that effect in this very thread a few hundred pages back.

The DvD on the other hand was a joy to behold as the scene in question was much better lit to such a degree that T'Challa's superhuman fighting abilities were actually visible and a joy yo behold I might add.

[MindofShadow]

"Just because something works, doesn't mean it can't be improved."

We've seen this way too many times, especially in recent years and more so in the MCU. It's safe, boring and is getting stale.

I mean, there is zero objective evidence for this though.

The whole point of a sequel is to switch things up. A bad sequel relies on what works and doesn't take necessary risks. I know not everybody likes it here, but part of what makes The Dark Knight great is that Joker was an intellectual challenge, not a physical one.

This isn't about making a copy of that movie, but understanding why that one works. Batman in that film is never really in any danger, but we know that he is losing because he's either failing to save people from themselves or the Joker, or his own moral compass is being used against him. It's compelling to watch.

What made Killmonger a great villain was that he had a point and that changed T'Challa. Being able to beat him was the bonus. You don't want to repeat this however, so you do a villain that purely intellectual and the narrative tension is whether or not T'Challa will commit to his ideals.

At the end of the first film, T'Challa makes a very bold step to open Wakanda's borders and share their resources. It's s breach in centuries worth of tradition and isolationism. The sequel needs to address and I think the best way would be with an intellectual villain. Therefore his external conflict would be about whether he can keep Wakanda and the rest of the world from harm because of his decision.

I honestly don't think it is about being an "intellectual villain." It is just having a villain/movie that challenges the heroes core beliefs and force him to make a decision... stand firm or change. And how that decision fits the character. Which is what Black Panther did with T'challa.

For instance, TWS. The core of the movie is really, "what do you give up for peace?" It was a Patriot Act analogy. The movie tried to force Cap to change... and he said no. Which fits the character. and it had no real consequences. CW did the same thing, challenged Caps core belief with the Accords this time... he said no. Which fits the character. ANd that time it had real consequences, because he nuked the Avengers by doing it.

I think BB is a better Batman movie than TDK. Because Ras challenges Bruce's ideals in a way that TDK doesn't (and the action is better lol). TDK is an entertaining thrilling movie and an ok Batman movie IMO.

[DigiCom]

Yeesh... are people STILL complaining about the fight scenes? Sacred Bubastis...

[Ezyo1000]

Yeesh... are people STILL complaining about the fight scenes? Sacred Bubastis...

BoG.... Everything must come full circle..

[Jabare]

for the individual bemoaning BP CGI here is your context

[Mr MajestiK]

Yeesh... are people STILL complaining about the fight scenes? Sacred Bubastis...

Bro, I haven't been posting for a long while but as you know, I stay unapologetically consistent

[Dboi654]

for the individual bemoaning BP CGI here is your context

I knew about this when the movie was released which is why I am not so adamant about the cgi in the last fight although I was really disappointed.

[Mr MajestiK]

I knew about this when the movie was released which is why I am not so adamant about the cgi in the last fight although I was really disappointed.

The CGI in the last fight scene between T'Challa and Killmonger remains garbage regardless.

Fortunately, that didn't have an overal negative impact upon a movie that's still a bonafide beautiful experience.

[Tien Long]

The CGI in the last fight scene between T'Challa and Killmonger remains garbage regardless.

Fortunately, that didn't have an overal negative impact upon a movie that's still a bonafide beautiful experience.

I'll be honest, that last fight scene took away from a truly excellent film. On paper, it's awesome, but it didn't work out so well. For me, it was the fact that I couldn't tell what was going on. It was in a dark cave, with both characters wearing dark clothing in a movie that had little lighting. I can appreciate it now since a lot of online streaming services allow me to rewind and see what's going on. But I remember thinking in the theater that I wish I knew what was going on .

[Blind Wedjat]

I mean, there is zero objective evidence for this though.

Eh, there kinda is.

The "MCU formula" has been a complaint since Iron Man 3. Most critics point to superhero movies have a set formula, especially MCU ones. One minor complain about BP was that it was still an MCU film despite the creative strides it did make. We've seen movies like Doctor Strange and Captain Marvel not be entirely safe because they're the same as other MCU films in terms of structure. And other properties are copying the basic MCU formula too.

I honestly don't think it is about being an "intellectual villain." It is just having a villain/movie that challenges the heroes core beliefs and force him to make a decision... stand firm or change. And how that decision fits the character. Which is what Black Panther did with T'challa.

For instance, TWS. The core of the movie is really, "what do you give up for peace?" It was a Patriot Act analogy. The movie tried to force Cap to change... and he said no. Which fits the character. and it had no real consequences. CW did the same thing, challenged Caps core belief with the Accords this time... he said no. Which fits the character. ANd that time it had real consequences, because he nuked the Avengers by doing it.

I think BB is a better Batman movie than TDK. Because Ras challenges Bruce's ideals in a way that TDK doesn't (and the action is better lol). TDK is an entertaining thrilling movie and an ok Batman movie IMO.

Agree with all of this, and I'm not here to say BP 2 has to copy TDK. It's just that we have to understand why it was a good sequel. Whether it was better than BB is not really the point. Same thing applies to TWS too. Think about it for a second:

- BB and TFA were both origin stories where the titular hero fought a "dark mirror image" villain (Red Skull and R'as al Ghul) with opposing views and goals. Same with BP.

- TDK and TWS's villains weren't physical threats to the hero (Alexander Pierce and Joker). But they challenged the ideas and intellect of the hero and put other people they care about in danger. Pierce with Hydra challenged Cap's and America's idea of freedom and Joker challenges Gotham's idea of order, using Harvey Dent as an example, and puts other people Batman cares about or has to protect in danger.

The dynamics in terms of action and story changed. You could make the villain more powerful or whatever, but if the guy is just someone T'Challa just has to beat in a fight, then it's still the same thing. It doesn't automatically mean the movie would be bad, but we both know T'Challa is more than just a warrior. That's why at the moment I'm up for a villain that's more of an intellectual. I don't mean literal science and tech genius, but someone who can challenge T'Challa's new mission as a political world leader. I personally think what T'Challa wants to do for the rest of the world with Wakanda is far more interesting than whether or not he can beat someone again.

Use someone like Achebe. The Mephisto connection isn't necessary. Just make him damn smart, prepared, connected enough to have major muscle, and you could make him also a political leader so T'Challa can't just arrest him or kill him. Say if he does, then he causes a power vacuum in said country. Make Achebe ideologically and and morally against T'Challla's mission. Since T'Challa wants to provide aid to other countries, have Achebe be a guy that challenges that, tries to paint T'Challa and Wakanda as another foreign country trying to get their foot in the door and enact regime change, and tries to make T'Challa look bad by forcing him to be violent or use violence to solve problems. And it ties back to the first film too, since T'Challa was partly inspired by Killmonger's own mission. So he's being tested, contemplating whether he is doing the right thing or he's just like his cousin (great way to bring Erik back to taunt him in nightmares lol), if the rest of the world can be helped and if they actually want help, and if he can assuage fears that Wakanda will become another power hungry global superpower.

[XPac]

Eh, there kinda is.

The "MCU formula" has been a complaint since Iron Man 3. Most critics point to superhero movies have a set formula, especially MCU ones. One minor complain about BP was that it was still an MCU film despite the creative strides it did make. We've seen movies like Doctor Strange and Captain Marvel not be entirely safe because they're the same as other MCU films in terms of structure. And other properties are copying the basic MCU formula too.



Agree with all of this, and I'm not here to say BP 2 has to copy TDK. It's just that we have to understand why it was a good sequel. Whether it was better than BB is not really the point. Same thing applies to TWS too. Think about it for a second:

- BB and TFA were both origin stories where the titular hero fought a "dark mirror image" villain (Red Skull and R'as al Ghul) with opposing views and goals. Same with BP.

- TDK and TWS's villains weren't physical threats to the hero (Alexander Pierce and Joker). But they challenged the ideas and intellect of the hero and put other people they care about in danger. Pierce with Hydra challenged Cap's and America's idea of freedom and Joker challenges Gotham's idea of order, using Harvey Dent as an example, and puts other people Batman cares about or has to protect in danger.

The dynamics in terms of action and story changed. You could make the villain more powerful or whatever, but if the guy is just someone T'Challa just has to beat in a fight, then it's still the same thing. It doesn't automatically mean the movie would be bad, but we both know T'Challa is more than just a warrior. That's why at the moment I'm up for a villain that's more of an intellectual. I don't mean literal science and tech genius, but someone who can challenge T'Challa's new mission as a political world leader. I personally think what T'Challa wants to do for the rest of the world with Wakanda is far more interesting than whether or not he can beat someone again.

Use someone like Achebe. The Mephisto connection isn't necessary. Just make him damn smart, prepared, connected enough to have major muscle, and you could make him also a political leader so T'Challa can't just arrest him or kill him. Say if he does, then he causes a power vacuum in said country. Make Achebe ideologically and and morally against T'Challla's mission. Since T'Challa wants to provide aid to other countries, have Achebe be a guy that challenges that, tries to paint T'Challa and Wakanda as another foreign country trying to get their foot in the door and enact regime change, and tries to make T'Challa look bad by forcing him to be violent or use violence to solve problems. And it ties back to the first film too, since T'Challa was partly inspired by Killmonger's own mission. So he's being tested, contemplating whether he is doing the right thing or he's just like his cousin (great way to bring Erik back to taunt him in nightmares lol), if the rest of the world can be help and if they actually want help, and if he can assuage fears that Wakanda will become another power hungry global superpower.

Winter Soldier is an example of doing all of the above.

Yes, Pierce is an intellectual threat. But Winter Soldier obviously was a physical one, in addition to being a very personal and emotional one. Point being you don't have to sacrifice one for the other. You can have either a physical challenge who can challenge him on multiple levels like Killmonger, or have more than one bad guy like Pierce and Winter Soldier.

[Blind Wedjat]

Bucky was a secondary villain to Pierce and Hydra. He was really just meant to be their assassin, the movie's Terminator, and an emotional connection to Cap. It's Hydra and Pierce that actually challenge Cap's ideology. Winter Soldier is 'evidence' that his ideology may be dying out and the world has changed.

Killmonger obviously covers these and is like Winter Soldier, Loki and Pierce rolled into one. So you can't really do another villain that feels like that sort of combination. Again, why TDK and TWS felt fresh is because they switched up the formula. You don't want to end up like TDKR and the Iron Man films which felt like retreads.

It's like having a Doctor Strange sequel with another sorcerer with an opposing view.