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  1. #1861
    Genesis of A Nemesis Things Fall Apart's Avatar
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    Since Wakanda walled itself off and was allowed to develop independently, they'd really be the place we'd look to see what other African nations in that region were like before antiquity.

    They should be uniquely "African" with very little outside cultural assimilation.

    If they speak languages from other places it's because those languages are likely derived from whatever base language was spoken in the region 15000 years (or whatever) ago.
    Last edited by Things Fall Apart; 02-13-2019 at 10:48 AM.
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  2. #1862
    Mighty Member Redjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pumbaa View Post
    Of course you can. Wakanda wasn't just separate from Africa, they were separate from the entire world, but no one would argue that Wakandans aren't Earthlings/Human. They obviously are both separate from it and a part of it. As you know Africa is about as diverse as you can get. Different languages, religions, cultures, skin tones and levels of technological prowess. Wakanda just adds an even more diverse element (vibranium tech) to Africa in the MU while still sharing a few things with some African tribes (i.e. religion, clothing, languages etc.)



    I would agree. But i would also add that South Africa is not Africa, South Africa is South Africa, and Nigeria is not Africa, Nigeria is Nigeria. All of them together are Africa and that includes Wakanda (in the MU obviously).

    And Pastiche is a term we use to evaluate art in the real world, but that doesn't work in-universe. If someone asked T'challa why he dresses like an African he wouldn't say "Its a Pastiche" or "its just a coincidence our cultures came up with similar styles". He would say Because I am African. Just like if an alien asked him why he looks like a human he would say because I am human.

    And correct me if I'm wrong but although Wakandans would kill other Africans that tried to enter their lands, they were free to travel around Africa all they like, weren't they? Which means they were probably taking all kinds of cultural elements such as clothing designs, art styles, food recipes, etc from the rest of Africa back to Wakanda all the time. Just cause Wakanda didn't share with the rest of Africa, doesn't necessarily mean the rest of Africa wasn't sharing with Wakanda without knowing it.

    Pastiche is description of a technique in art. it is not an "evaluation."

    I'm not correcting you. I'm just pointing at what's been written over all these years. None of the real world nations you mentioned share any characteristics with Wakanda beyond the skin color of the natives and geography.

    Some have said that Wakanda, if anything, would be the purest form of Africa and the split happened so early and they isolated - yes, isolated- themselves for so long that they developed truly independently. this is what I'm saying. Asia, the "middle east" and Europe are part of the same massive land mass yet no one would say that Israel is Korea. Or that France is in Asia. And these are cultures that DID interact with their neighbors, trading everything from genes to textiles over thousands of years.

    Wakanda is Wakanda. It is not Africa.
    Last edited by Redjack; 02-13-2019 at 10:23 AM.

  3. #1863
    Amazing Member Pumbaa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redjack View Post
    Pastiche is description of a technique in art. it is not an "evaluation."

    I'm not correcting you. I'm just pointing at what's been written over all these years. None of the real world nations you mentioned share any characteristics with Wakanda beyond the skin color of the natives and geography.

    Some have said that Wakanda, if anything, would be the purest form of Africa and the split happened so early and they isolated - yes, isolated- themselves for so long that they developed truly independently. this is what I'm saying. Asia, the "middle east" and Europe are part of the same massive land mass yet no one would say that Israel is Korea. Or that France is in Asia. And these are cultures that DID interact with their neighbors, trading everything from genes to textiles over thousands of years.

    Wakanda is Wakanda. It is not Africa.
    I'm curious: what is Africa to you? Is it not Geographic first and foremost? There isn't a single skin color, culture, religion, language etc etc. Two African tribes can share nothing but skin color and geography and still be African, can they not?

    Is Wakandan history not African History even if its happening in isolation? Or does African history only happen when tribes interact with other tribes, can it not happen within a single tribe with no interaction?

    And the reason people don't say Israel is Korea is because Israel and Korea have borders that separate them. if Europe, The Middle East and Asia was a supercontinent called Eurasia, then yes Israeli's and Koreans would both be Eurasians.

  4. #1864
    Amazing Member Pumbaa's Avatar
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    And I disagree that Wakanda doesn't share any characteristics with real world African nations. Pastiche or not, there are obvious African characteristics all over Wakanda.

  5. #1865
    Mighty Member Redjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pumbaa View Post
    I'm curious: what is Africa to you? Is it not Geographic first and foremost? There isn't a single skin color, culture, religion, language etc etc. Two African tribes can share nothing but skin color and geography and still be African, can they not?

    Is Wakandan history not African History even if its happening in isolation? Or does African history only happen when tribes interact with other tribes, can it not happen within a single tribe with no interaction?

    And the reason people don't say Israel is Korea is because Israel and Korea have borders that separate them. if Europe, The Middle East and Asia was a supercontinent called Eurasia, then yes Israeli's and Koreans would both be Eurasians.
    Africa is nothing more to me to me one way or the other than Europe, Australia, South America or Antarctica. Like every other place in the world is has soil, mountains, beaches, forests, animals, bugs, lakes, rivers, people, tribes, cultures, etc. Most of the people on Earth, African or not, are brown. All of the people on Earth are descended from Africans. So what? Are Scandinavians Africans too? They have had more contact with Africa over the last ten thousand years than Wakanda has.

    The history of a place can be described in a lot of ways, geologically, climate, strictly focusing on animal migration or plant life cycles. All of those constitute history. What WE are talking about is the sort of history humans write down about themselves and, in the context of the MCU, Wakanda's history is entirely separate from that of the rest of the continent in which it sits.

    There is no cultural crossover. there is no trade. there is nothing linking the one to the other but the happenstance of dirt. as a fictional construct it's all over the place, multiple writers over multiple decades picking and pasting bits of their filtered views of "Africa" to cobble together a version of Wakanda which is plausible only in passing. Any examination of the established history of the fictional nation must lead to the conclusion I've drawn here.

    The "borders" you describe between these nations mentioned in the real world are social. tribal in most cases, codified into national borders over centuries. they aren't real. None of those nations murder every single person who tries to cross (sometimes leaving only one terrified individual alive to spread the waning). Wakanda opted out of Africa at its beginning and remained separate for 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the continent's collective history. It literally shares nothing, intentionally, with any other group, tribe or nation in such extreme ways as I've cited in other posts.

    seriously. this isn't even a close one.
    Last edited by Redjack; 02-13-2019 at 12:41 PM.

  6. #1866
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redjack View Post
    You're playing word games and I'm not. I'm going only by what's been depicted in ALL the comics and you're limiting yourself to one issue of the fantastic four written in 1966.

    Wakanda was Wakanda before Africa had a name. think about it. Its destiny diverged from the rest of the continent (and the world) at that time as well. they're centuries ahead of the rest of the planet technologically and have been for thousands of years. they sat by and watched as their neighbors were colonized, murdered and enslaved like, "Not our problem." for THOUSANDS of years. They murder anyone who crosses their border, which means, until Europeans showed up a few hundred years ago, they were murdering their neighbors. for ten thousand years.

    they chose not to be part of the rest of the continent in a social, civilizational sense. OF COURSE the land is physically part of the continent.
    I don't play games.
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  7. #1867
    CBB 4 LIFE Mr MajestiK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blind Wedjat View Post
    ...but that's not true, at all. They actually do.

    We've seen Wakandans use the Bantu, Nguni, I think Swahili and famously Hausa languages in their culture. Names like Okoye for instance is of Igbo origin.

    Whoever it was that was drawing Wakanda at their didn't invent some new architectural or cultural language for Wakanda, so many of their buildings, clothing, traditions, weapons and so on bear striking similarities to that of other African countries.

    Let's also not forget that some Wakandans worship Bast and Sekhmet like the Egyptians and other African tribes did.

    You say this as if no single interpretation of Wakanda didn't take inspiration from world African countries, which isn't true at all.
    Thank you for sparing me the trouble of having to point all of the above out.
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  8. #1868
    CBB 4 LIFE Mr MajestiK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    This is a interesting convo, I guess it is harder to conceive because the creators of Wakanda pushed a Wakanda that reflects parts of Africa and not create entirely new society that looks and feels nothing like well "Africa". In the MCU the Wakanda we see is bits and pieces of real world Africa. I mean understand what is being said If you replace Wakanda with Attilan, I don't think people would necessarily call it Africa. Wakanda has been separated from "Africa" so long and the have been evolving they are entirely a new thing. If superhero comics were more scifi territory someone would have developed a language,city design,etc that are vast different anything around. In just talking about it Wakandan should be susceptible to diseases because they haven't been part of civilization and building up natural immunity to things over the years( I guess they foresight to send spies go out into the world and collect disease/antibodies for things) .

    I get the concept of why someone would say Wakanda is not Africa BUT it is on Africa, It is culture evolved from Africa, Its descendants are African and you can make an argument that society like that cut off from being intermingled with culture and races is the most African you can be. I can see why someone would say Wakanda is Africa. Lupita Nyong viewed Wakanda as sort of view on Africa that was never colonized. I get both points of view
    Basically.
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  9. #1869
    CBB 4 LIFE Mr MajestiK's Avatar
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    I have to take my hat off to brothers Blind Wedjat and Pumbaa for keeping it all the way real on this topic.

    I've learnt alot from your posts and have throughly enjoyed reading your contributions.

    Once again, thank you both.
    Enjoying the camraderie of friends and family is all that matters in the world.

    Mr MajestiK took a short hiatus and the Chaos Bringer was reborn.

  10. #1870
    CBB 4 LIFE Mr MajestiK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redjack View Post
    Africa is nothing more to me to me one way or the other than Europe, Australia, South America or Antarctica. Like every other place in the world is has soil, mountains, beaches, forests, animals, bugs, lakes, rivers, people, tribes, cultures, etc. Most of the people on Earth, African or not, are brown. All of the people on Earth are descended from Africans. So what? Are Scandinavians Africans too? They have had more contact with Africa over the last ten thousand years than Wakanda has.

    The history of a place can be described in a lot of ways, geologically, climate, strictly focusing on animal migration or plant life cycles. All of those constitute history. What WE are talking about is the sort of history humans write down about themselves and, in the context of the MCU, Wakanda's history is entirely separate from that of the rest of the continent in which it sits.

    There is no cultural crossover. there is no trade. there is nothing linking the one to the other but the happenstance of dirt. as a fictional construct it's all over the place, multiple writers over multiple decades picking and pasting bits of their filtered views of "Africa" to cobble together a version of Wakanda which is plausible only in passing. Any examination of the established history of the fictional nation must lead to the conclusion I've drawn here.

    The "borders" you describe between these nations mentioned in the real world are social. tribal in most cases, codified into national borders over centuries. they aren't real. None of those nations murder every single person who tries to cross (sometimes leaving only one terrified individual alive to spread the waning). Wakanda opted out of Africa at its beginning and remained separate for 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the continent's collective history. It literally shares nothing, intentionally, with any other group, tribe or nation in such extreme ways as I've cited in other posts.

    seriously. this isn't even a close one.
    You're absolutely right about this not "even being a close one" as far as divergent views go.

    But not in the way you think.
    Enjoying the camraderie of friends and family is all that matters in the world.

    Mr MajestiK took a short hiatus and the Chaos Bringer was reborn.

  11. #1871
    Mighty Member Redjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr MajestiK View Post
    You're absolutely right about this not "even being a close one" as far as divergent views go.

    But not in the way you think.
    yeah, it is. it's exactly the way I've laid it out.

  12. #1872
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redjack View Post
    yeah, it is. it's exactly the way I've laid it out.
    Sorry but, no cigar.
    Enjoying the camraderie of friends and family is all that matters in the world.

    Mr MajestiK took a short hiatus and the Chaos Bringer was reborn.

  13. #1873
    Mighty Member Redjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr MajestiK View Post
    Sorry but, no cigar.
    it's actually not up to you. so far, all i've put forth is facts.

    i don't have any emotional skin in the game.

  14. #1874
    Get Hectic! FLEX HECTIC's Avatar
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    Dilemma...


    Since my wife is a born and raised South African and I am a born and raised African American does that make me a South African African American?


    Under Judeo-Christian marriage laws we are technically "one flesh" so that should make our son... An African mutant by default!


    What's weird about all this is that I am thoroughly convinced that my wife is South African Secret Service and she is working me like Jason Bourne!


    I mean like we go to the mall and she walks 50 paces behind me and tells me via bluetooth earphone which store to shop in or duck for cover like...





    Mrs. Hectic: "Walk towards the Disney Store... Pause, browse the coffee mugs... Buy the Thanos Infinity Gauntlet one... Now drop down and pretend to tie your shoe... In ten seconds rise up and head out the store towards the local comic shop... Buy the Black Panther issue #10... No, not the Coates one the other one..."

    Flex Hectic: "I think I'm being followed..."

    Mrs. Hectic: "That's just the store security sweating you because you're black... Keep moving"

    Flex Hectic: "I'm South African African American!"

    Mrs. Hectic: "Whatever... Now take a right towards the calendar kiosk in the middle of the mall... Search the Marvel calendars and keep your head down!"

    Flex Hectic: "Niiiiice... Is this Neal Adams?"

    Mrs. Hectic: "Drop the calendar and slowly pick it up... Careful!"

    Flex Hectic: "If I break it I gotta buy it!"

    Mrs. Hectic: "There are two Goon Slam Gary's on your left at 4 o'clock..."

    Flex Hectic: "OH SNAP THEY SEE ME!!!"

    Mrs. Hectic: "Got em!"

    BIFF... SLAM... BOOM... BANG... (shaky camera and stuff)... CRACK... SLAP... POOF... (even more shaky camera)... CLANG... POW!

    Flex Hectic: "Dayum woman you about that life for real... Look at all that blood!"

    Mrs. Hectic: "Now take a left towards the Victoria's Secret shop!"

    Flex Hectic: "I like where this is headed can I see your War Dog tattoo!"

    Mrs. Hectic: "Get the red one with the lace... No the red one!"

    Flex Hectic: "But I'm really pheeling the blue one with the..."

    Mrs. Hectic: "RED... Now slip away to the dressing room I'll meet you there stay low and quiet not a sound!"

    Transmission REDACTED by South African Secret Service!


    It's a matter of national... OOPS I mean continental security!
    Get Hectic!

  15. #1875
    Amazing Member Pumbaa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redjack View Post
    Africa is nothing more to me to me one way or the other than Europe, Australia, South America or Antarctica. Like every other place in the world is has soil, mountains, beaches, forests, animals, bugs, lakes, rivers, people, tribes, cultures, etc. Most not the people on Earth, African or not, are brown. All of the people on Earth are descended from Africans. So what? Are Scandinavians Africans too? They have had more contact with Africa over the last ten thousand years than Wakanda has.

    The history of a place can be described in a lot of ways, geologically, climate, strictly focusing on animal migration or plant life cycles. All of those constitute history. What WE are talking about is the sort of history humans write down about themselves and, in the context of the MCU, Wakanda's history is entirely separate from that of the rest of the continent in which it sits.

    There is no cultural crossover. there is no trade. there is nothing linking the one to the other but the happenstance of dirt. as a fictional construct it's all over the place, multiple writers over multiple decades picking and pasting bits of their filtered views of "Africa" to cobble together a version of Wakanda which is plausible only in passing. Any examination of the established history of the fictional nation must lead to the conclusion I've drawn here.

    The "borders" you describe between these nations mentioned in the real world are social. tribal in most cases, codified into national borders over centuries. they aren't real. None of those nations murder every single person who tries to cross (sometimes leaving only one terrified individual alive to spread the waning). Wakanda opted out of Africa at its beginning and remained separate for 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the continent's collective history. It literally shares nothing, intentionally, with any other group, tribe or nation in such extreme ways as I've cited in other posts.

    seriously. this isn't even a close one.
    Oooohhhh wow.... now I think I see your point of view; If we're ignoring generally accepted geography, We don't see Africa as any different to Australia or Antartica, Borders are "not real" social/tribal constructs, and African elements in the story are disregarded as Pastiche, then sure I guess Wakanda isn't a part of Africa.

    I'm not even sure its part of planet Earth at this point.

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