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  1. #1891
    Extraordinary Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    I think now's a good time to change topic. I think everyone has been pretty civil but I feel this can turn south so better to leave it at agree to disagree

  2. #1892
    Ultimate Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    I think now's a good time to change topic. I think everyone has been pretty civil but I feel this can turn south so better to leave it at agree to disagree
    It is interesting how civil disagreements are in here when it is between actual fans of the character.

    (Weirdly, I think both sides are "right" but *shrug* It's not cinematic nor too relevant to the comic stories unless someone writes a pre-Azzuri book or something)
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  3. #1893
    Get Hectic! FLEX HECTIC's Avatar
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    The dispute is not over until the fat lady sings... Or Starlord gets his dance on!





    I used to be a professional breakdancer so anybody who wants it they can get it I take it to them room service style and serve em!


    But...


    I agree to disagree about agreeing to disagree therefore I agree!
    Get Hectic!

  4. #1894
    CBB 4 LIFE Mr MajestiK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chief12d View Post
    Bruh that's exactly what I'm feeling looking at this convo lol

    Wakanda is African btw. Whatever cultural traits they built upon were indigenous to the region and therefore indigenous to the continent. The fact that they isolated themselves early on doesn't detract from that basic fact. Africa is the most diverse continent so not everything needs to look the same, as it clearly didn't historically or even in the present day.

    Therefore even though Wakanda developed different foods, music, technology, etc. than their neighbors, they did so on the continent and therefore those traits are African. If anything, as others have said they are the most African people on the continent seeing as they imported nothing from the colonizing powers of the world and maintained cultural continuity for thousands of years. As different as (theoretically speaking) they ought to be from other Africans on the continent, they came to be in Africa and are therefore African.

    And even if we're looking at this historically, there was a time before the arrival of vibranium, so there was most certainly a time when there was the exchange of culture between the area we know now as Wakanda and the surrounding region. I don't know when the Wakandan peoples got access to vibranium, but even if it was a few hundred years before the rise of Mesopotamia or the Indus Valley civilization, they still would have received substantial cultural contact from other groups and gotten some "traditional" African traits like ancestor worship and mud-brick architecture, hence why they have them now. At least that's my headcanon.
    You my friend, are a bonafide truthteller.

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  5. #1895
    CBB 4 LIFE Mr MajestiK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    It is interesting how civil disagreements are in here when it is between actual fans of the character.

    (Weirdly, I think both sides are "right" but *shrug* It's not cinematic nor too relevant to the comic stories unless someone writes a pre-Azzuri book or something)
    I definitely agree with you on the "wierdly" part of your post because to be quite Frank, any assertion to the effect that Wakandans are not African within the context of the fictional MU, is patently unsupportable.

    So no, the two divergent positions are not compatible by any stretch of the imagination.
    Enjoying the camraderie of friends and family is all that matters in the world.

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  6. #1896
    Original CBR member Jabare's Avatar
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    #BlackPanthersQuest was nominated for an NAACP Image Award this morning according to Daisy Lightfoot on twitter

    https://twitter.com/LaDaisy04/status...11727676370945

    what a time to be alive
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    I post via my phone a lot, therefore I make the occasional grammatical error. Not an excuse just forewarning you. Feel free to call me out I won't mind.

  7. #1897
    Mighty Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr MajestiK View Post
    I definitely agree with you on the "wierdly" part of your post because to be quite Frank, any assertion to the effect that Wakandans are not African within the context of the fictional MU, is patently unsupportable.

    So no, the two divergent positions are not compatible by any stretch of the imagination.
    Here is the way to explain are Aborigines today Africans? More than likely your answer will be no, If you believe Africa to be birthplace of civilization and understand that Aborigines may have initially migrated from Africa to Asia then Australia you get where this is going.The argument splitting yourself off and developing independently away for years you will be completely different thing Wakanda even though Wakanda is Africa,It has been as separated as Aborigines in Australia. What doesn't make it work as well it should is that writers never care fleshed out Wakanda as realistic should it is far easier to make patchwork of African civilization than completely different entity. Based on how advance Wakanda and the separation means language, customs,entertainment, music,etc would have developed way differently from other parts of the continent .

    Redjack is not saying they are not Africans by textbook definition they are Africans.You have seen in his posts him saying that what I believe he saying "Yeah even though you can call Africans by the textbook definition they have been separate so long and so vastly different from anything around they are better describe as just Wakandans". Now props to Stan Lee and Jack Kirby for creating this property but things that holding up this convo is really the fact that two white men create fantasy place in africa and not someone well versed Africa or developing civilizations for fiction. A more fleshed out creation would more uniquely have its own Gods, language,architecture and quirks of civilization and great sci fi and fantasy writers would have flesh that out more.

    So here is the thing 10,000 years ago from Bashenga to when T'Challa open up Wakanda. Wakanda has been separate/isolated being their own thing. They have been as isolated as Aborigines. That is the fiction. What us fans are pointing to being African is well fictional writer not fleshing out the world more someone like GRR Martin (Valyrian) or Tolkien(Elves) would flesh out concept to where it does feel like anything else on earth. I am with Mind of Shadow weirdly both sides are right I don't think any is wrong for saying yeah by definition Wakanda is African especially when writers have filled it out with African flourishes but I don't think anyone is wrong to say Wakanda is really just Wakanda because from nearly Hyborian Age Marvel caveman age to pretty much the present,Wakanda has been separate entity from Africa in the fiction. I mean why would Wakanda have developed other African cultures stuff while being seperated?

    Wakanda is African but Wakanda is Wakanda. Just my 2 cents
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 02-14-2019 at 04:08 AM.

  8. #1898
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redjack View Post
    it's actually not up to you. so far, all i've put forth is facts.

    i don't have any emotional skin in the game.

    I have to admit, I don't truly understand the point you are trying to make. Wakanda is an African country. Not just because of the geographic location but culturally as well too. All cultures evolve due to specific experiences that they may uniquely undergo but that doesn't mean there are no cultural continuities or affinities that they may share. Due to the nature of comics, the origins and development of Wakanda is everchanging and of course there may be some conflicts and contradictions that exist due to retcons, but they all point to Wakanda sharing cultural similarities with other African peoples DESPITE vibranium.

    Cultural proof that (616) Wakanda is "African."

    1. Deities- The deities worshipped by Wakandans have been shown to be acknowledged by other African groups. Bast the Panther Goddess (Ancient Egyptian) and Ghekre the Gorilla God (Cote D'Ivoire) are examples.
    2.Physical Culture- Superficial as this is, Wakandan architecture and clothing have all been shown to have similarities with other African cultures.
    3. Languages- Many words and names used in Wakanda are used by other African groups (e.g. Orishas, Kwame, Okoye, etc.). Black Panther speaks to the Dora Milaje in Hausa... HAUSA.

    Now one could argue that all of these similarities are due to the lack of imagination (or laziness) of previous writers in giving Wakanda is own unique language and identity but we can go farther. In the Black Panther series by Peter Gillis and Denys McCowan, The Panther God abandoned the Black Panther because of the suffering he ignored among the Black population of ANOTHER AFRICAN country, Azania (an analogue for South Africa). BP did not initially try to stop the apartheid regime of the Azanian government leading to the suffering of Black Azanians which the Panther God saw as reprehensible. So here we have a case where the deity worshipped by Wakandans is actively fighting against them because they are ignoring the suffering of other Panther God worshippers in another AFRICAN country.

    But wait there is more!

    The comparison of Wakanda to Attilan and other isolated nations is problematic and inaccurate. Wakanda is generally (now) depicted as landlocked surrounded by other African countries. Now one can argue about the origin Wakanda's xenophobia because in the original Kirby/Lee depiction Wakanda pre-Klaue was NOT xenophobic. Their xenophobia was arguably a result of Klaue's betrayal and invasion after he was an invited guest. Post-Hudlin, their xenophobia predates Klaue but still, it's highlighted that they are hostile towards armed invaders. The question is: Are they hostile to unarmed peaceful immigrants? We don't know in all cases but the reality is that prior to T'Challa opening up the country there were immigrants allowed to settle in Wakanda. Ramonda (who became Queen) and Hunter (who was adopted as the king's son) are two shining examples.

    Furthermore, Wakanda may keep itself hidden from the world, but the world was not hidden from Wakanda. Wakandan citizens THROUGHOUT history have constantly engaged the world outside of their borders. Unlike Attilan, there has been way too much communication with the outside world for Wakanda to be considered THAT separate from everything, particularly their African neighbors. Again this is pre-T'Challa.

    In conclusion, the idea that Wakanda has or even could completely cut itself off completely from other African nations, has just not been supported by comics. If you choose to go there in the cartoon, then that is fine. However, suggesting that this is a fact born through the comics is just not true.

  9. #1899
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    So here is the thing 10,000 years ago from Bashenga to when T'Challa open up Wakanda. Wakanda has been separate/isolated being their own thing. They have been as isolated as Aborigines.

    Wakanda is African but Wakanda is Wakanda. Just my 2 cents

    As i just stated in my last post, I disagree. Wakanda has generally kept itself isolated but not to that degree. Australia is an island in the middle of the ocean. Wakanda is an island in the middle of a continent. While the Wakandans have actively tried to keep their country separated from the rest of the world, the people have not kept themselves isolated from the rest of the world. We have seen that throughout history, Wakandans have engaged the outside world around them, and NOT solely at the borders. Also, Wakandans have allowed immigrants into the country prior to T'Challa. Wakanda succeeded at keeping peoples interest in going to Wakanda low but that doesn't mean that an individual couldn't walk their way into the country prior to the invention of hi tech surveilance equipment.

  10. #1900
    Resident of The Djalia Blind Wedjat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    Here is the way to explain are Aborigines today Africans? More than likely your answer will be no, If you believe Africa to be birthplace of civilization and understand that Aborigines may have initially migrated from Africa to Asia then Australia you get where this is going.The argument splitting yourself off and developing independently away for years you will be completely different thing Wakanda even though Wakanda is Africa,It has been as separated as Aborigines in Australia. What doesn't make it work as well it should is that writers never care fleshed out Wakanda as realistic should it is far easier to make patchwork of African civilization than completely different entity. Based on how advance Wakanda and the separation means language, customs,entertainment, music,etc would have developed way differently from other parts of the continent .

    Redjack is not saying they are not Africans by textbook definition they are Africans.You have seen in his posts him saying that what I believe he saying "Yeah even though you can call Africans by the textbook definition they have been separate so long and so vastly different from anything around they are better describe as just Wakandans". Now props to Stan Lee and Jack Kirby for creating this property but things that holding up this convo is really the fact that two white men create fantasy place in africa and not someone well versed Africa or developing civilizations for fiction. A more fleshed out creation would more uniquely have its own Gods, language,architecture and quirks of civilization and great sci fi and fantasy writers would have flesh that out more.

    So here is the thing 10,000 years ago from Bashenga to when T'Challa open up Wakanda. Wakanda has been separate/isolated being their own thing. They have been as isolated as Aborigines. That is the fiction. What us fans are pointing to being African is well fictional writer not fleshing out the world more someone like GRR Martin (Valyrian) or Tolkien(Elves) would flesh out concept to where it does feel like anything else on earth. I am with Mind of Shadow weirdly both sides are right I don't think any is wrong for saying yeah by definition Wakanda is African especially when writers have filled it out with African flourishes but I don't think anyone is wrong to say Wakanda is really just Wakanda because from nearly Hyborian Age Marvel caveman age to pretty much the present,Wakanda has been separate entity from Africa in the fiction. I mean why would Wakanda have developed other African cultures stuff while being seperated?

    Wakanda is African but Wakanda is Wakanda. Just my 2 cents
    You say this as if Stan Lee and Jack, subsequent writers, and Marvel didn't want to make Wakanda feel like and be an African country (despite putting it in the continent), but didn't bother or know how to go ahead to do it because they were lazy and/or weren't well versed in the continent enough.

    The point some of us are trying to make is that there was conscious effort from writers and artists to make Wakanda look, feel and be African by borrowing from different cultures from these different countries. That doesn't make Wakanda a pastiche of Africa and her countries in the way Redjack is implying (or you are by drawing reference to Tolkien's work) because Wakanda isn't meant to be an imitiation of Africa, but is meant to be a part of it as a fiction.

    Yes, one can argue that perhaps Wakandan culture could have been made to feel more unique, but the similarities help ground it in a sense of reality that makes it the appealing fantasy that it is, and there are African countries that have tribes and such that speak the same languages or have the same dress sense despite being separated by borders. Both Yoruba and Hausa aren't just spoken in Nigeria, for instance (despite being popularly known as being of that country). A country housing just one language is more of a European thing (see England, France, Germany etc) and Wakanda only speaking a hypothetical 'Wakandan' actually makes them feel less African.

    I get what Redjack is trying to say that they're their own country due to the isolationism (and the fact that they were hidden for centuries). That is true of course, but that suddenly does not make then not African. That doesn't make sense, and like I and other users have pointed out, there is enough evidence to disprove that.

    It's like saying America will no longer be a part of Earth because Trump wants to impose nationalist policies, or Britain won't be part of Europe anymore because of Brexit.

  11. #1901
    Mighty Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Like I said I see both sides, Saying either one doesn't bother me enough to get work up about arguing other than to say I think valid both are valid thought process

    Quote Originally Posted by Blind Wedjat View Post
    It's like saying America will no longer be a part of Earth because Trump wants to impose nationalist policies, or Britain won't be part of Europe anymore because of Brexit.
    A better example is California isolated itself away from America for the next 100 years.How much would they have common with the rest of America after those 100 years
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 02-14-2019 at 05:07 AM.

  12. #1902
    Resident of The Djalia Blind Wedjat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    Like I said I see both sides, Saying either one doesn't bother me enough to get work up about arguing other than to say I think valid both are valid thought process



    A better example is California isolated itself away from America for the next 100 years.How much would they have common with the rest of America after those 100 years
    America is a hard one because it's a melting pot of immigrants from different parts of the world over different periods of time. But if after a 100 years of isolationism, California people still spoke like Americans (i.e. American English), dressed like Americans, had the same base culture and belief system as Americans etc., would you not still call them Americans?

  13. #1903
    Extraordinary Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabare View Post
    #BlackPanthersQuest was nominated for an NAACP Image Award this morning according to Daisy Lightfoot on twitter

    https://twitter.com/LaDaisy04/status...11727676370945

    what a time to be alive
    That is awesome! The reign of that Black panther continues! This on top of the sighting of a real black panther after 100 years? Like MoS said, even the animal's are coming out to say Wakanda forever!

  14. #1904
    Resident of The Djalia Blind Wedjat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    That is awesome! The reign of that Black panther continues! This on top of the sighting of a real black panther after 100 years? Like MoS said, even the animal's are coming out to say Wakanda forever!
    The movie is also leading the nominations at the NAACP Image Awards too

    Maybe the animal popped up because he wants his part of his cut. You know, licensing and all that
    Last edited by Blind Wedjat; 02-14-2019 at 05:43 AM.

  15. #1905
    Ultimate Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    How long does award season last? I can't keep on top of all this stuff
    Black Panther Appreciation Blog: http://blackpanthermarvel.blogspot.com/

    T'challa's Greatest Comic Book Feats: http://blackpanthermarvel.blogspot.c...her-feats.html

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