Black Panther Appreciation 2019

[FLEX HECTIC]

Maybe by Middle Passage this is what they meant...

[MindofShadow]

AGENTS OF WAKANDA still a thing?

I'd assume so.

Aaron plays the long game with stuff. He is doing a lot of "avenger world building" right now.

hell, jhis War of the Realms thing has been building for like 4 years or whatever

[MindofShadow]

Remember how sick it was to see Chadwick and Sebastian's brief skirmish in the jail break scene? This nygga super mario jumping 20 feet in the air in wingtips and slacks

You could tell the budget was tight in BP bc that casino fight scene had a super soldier vs a buncha redshirts... a super soldier who we just saw (or didn't see, because of the lightning) do some crazy capoeira shit in pitch dark afrikan jungle, now all of a sudden Okoye fightin better than him lol. Now Coogler did a phenomenal job with the Okoye sequence and the moving camera, but maaaan they better give that brother a bigga budget so that T'Challa can kick every redshirt with the same energy he kicked W'Kabi at the end.

And yea, BP 2 will be interesting because no more depowered fight scenes, which means no more strategic cost-savings on the cgi/special effects budget lol. Mind you, Chad, Erik, and Winston did phenomenal, but maaaaan they better get all them redshirts some harnesses and have them sign them revamped waivers that they gon be gettin tossed around like rag dolls

It is kinda weird.

I love the tribal fights. Some of my favorite scenes in the MCU

But I dont' want to see anymore ever again lol. They served their purpose. They were pretty looking. I liked the choreography. The emotional beats were good. Mbaku was cool. Killmonger was cool. T'challa was cool.

But, I'm good now. If you wanna show some tribal stuff, it better be the wedding lol.

Time for more jumping 20 feet in the air over shields, wakanda slam, grabbing spear in mid air and taking out of plane please.

What were those shield tribal dudes thinking though? Have they never seen a fully powered black panther fight before I wonder? Is Black Panther more of a legend to them than anything? Is there no "black panther feats" on the KymoyoTube for little kids to watch? I mean shit, W'kabi ran right up on the dude like he thought he could do something lol? Shouldn't he know better? He was int he inner circle!

"ahahah we got him guys, no way he gets past thi 20 foot high shield!.... oh shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiittttttttttttttt tttttttttt"

[Rumble]

It is kinda weird.

I love the tribal fights. Some of my favorite scenes in the MCU

But I dont' want to see anymore ever again lol. They served their purpose. They were pretty looking. I liked the choreography. The emotional beats were good. Mbaku was cool. Killmonger was cool. T'challa was cool.

But, I'm good now. If you wanna show some tribal stuff, it better be the wedding lol.

Time for more jumping 20 feet in the air over shields, wakanda slam, grabbing spear in mid air and taking out of plane please.

This is exactly how I feel. Look at how Steve was treated in TWS with all the fight scenes (no depowering needed). Hell, look at how bad ass Ironman was while getting his ass beat by Black Dwarf and Thanos.

The ceremonial fights were strategic and appropriate storytelling with heart and passion, agreed, but no more of them shits lol. No more balling on a budget! Give BP extended fight scenes in that suit against opponents that wow us. And hire those into the badland fight choregraphers to teach Chadwick and them how to fight jackie chan/jet li style like they taught all those fat people on the show.

No excuses

[MindofShadow]

This is exactly how I feel. Look at how Steve was treated in TWS with all the fight scenes (no depowering needed). Hell, look at how bad ass Ironman was while getting his ass beat by Black Dwarf and Thanos.

The ceremonial fights were strategic and appropriate storytelling with heart and passion, agreed, but no more of them shits lol. No more balling on a budget! Give BP extended fight scenes in that suit against opponents that wow us. And hire those into the badland fight choregraphers to teach Chadwick and them how to fight jackie chan/jet li style like they taught all those fat people on the show.

No excuses

I also demand an Herbal supplements joke

[butterflykyss]

No offence, but this post and the other one earlier remind me of a lot of the ways Zack Snyder fans try to explain his symbolic and allegorical choices for his DCEU films. What I'm trying to say is, I find the allegory to the Middle Passage to be extremely shallow and surface level, and almost non-existent from what I have read. One could argue it's being done wrongly.

The Middle Passage is a part of slavery and slave trade. It is not slavery or slavery trade as a whole, and it seems Coates has somehow conflated the two (oddly enough for a man of his 'knowledge'). From what I understand of what the story has been so far, T'Challa finds himself on another planet as a slave toiling in a Vibranium mine. He has no recollection of who he is except being a slave of an empire founded in his name, and he sparks a revolution. How is this related to the Middle Passage in any way? The answer is that it simply isn't.

The Middle Passage isn't about how slaves in America (or whatever foreign land they were forced to work in) were mistreated, coped, and tried to fight for their freedom. It's about the in-betweenness of being sold off, kidnapped, or taken from their homes, being loaded onto ships, doing the triangular journey across the Atlantic before arriving in the new world. Most of it is about being on slave ships, slaves dying from starvation and diseases, committing suicide (usually by jumping off the ships) and the many failed rebellion attempts that occured while on the ships. The dynamics explored during this time really is the relationships between the slaves and the relationships between the slaves and the crew.

Coates' story so far has absolutely nothing to do with this. Not one direct comparison has been made between the event of the Middle Passage and his story. The closest is the element of rebellion, but a rebellion against an empire is not the same as a rebellion against a crew only responsible for your transportation. It's not the same kind of dynamic at all. Coates is clearly writing a Black Panther book inspired by Star Wars (rebelling against an evil space empire is one of the prevalent themes) that also draws from slavery and slave revolts in plantations. The entire plot point of losing (and recovering) one's identity as an African taken from his home that was stripped off whilst in a new, strange land is not a dynamic of the Middle Passage at all, and Coates using it while comparing it to the Middle Passage makes no sense, even factually.

If Coates wanted to do an allegory of the Middle Passage, he would have started it off with Wakanda being invaded by aliens, Wakanda being defeated, T'Challa being abducted from alongside other Wakandans, taken in large ships that had the other aliens with them, Wakandans constantly praying to their god(s), and the good guys repeatedly trying and failing to stop their transportation to the new planet (until they win, I guess). That makes a whole lot more sense, and has the potential to be a whole lot more compelling than a basic Star Wars story with Black Panther characters in it.

Imagine if I said Rogue One, The Last Jedi or The Empire Strikes back was allegory of the Middle Passage. That's what's Coates is doing.

I dont believe our understanding of slavery is the same. Slavery didnt start for the Africans forceably taken upon arriving to the Americas. Slavery occurred the moment they were kidnapped and shackled in Africa. That is what slavery is, to be in bondage and in servitude to someone else. The Africans on the transport ships were separated from their families, shackled in close quarters and in small areas with no ventilation, they were forced to eat and exercise, and had to follow the orders of the captain of the ship. They had no freedom, much like Tchalla and the rebels in BP.

You mentioned that there are no elements of the middle passage in Coates book but I respectfully disagree. Being separated from your loved ones, not knowing if you would ever see your home again, and fighting to get back to your home are all elements that I would imagine were experienced by those Africans who had to unfortunately endure the horrors of the middle passage. Could his story making parallels to the middle passage been told differently, of course, but I dont think it is fair to say that his execution has absolutely nothing to do with the middle passage. I wholeheartedly disagree for the reasons I laid out.

[Rumble]

Between EMH, Thorne cartoon, and BP movie, i think i'm good with ceremonial challenges. Forever.

The whole shock value of "ommmfg BP lost! T'Undertaker's Wakandamania streak is over!!!" kinda loses it's luster after the millionth iteration of seeing him or his pops lose for the first time.

I'm sure if or when he gets a AAA game, they gon have him lose in that one too, on some "I bet yall didn't see that swerve coming!"

Now what would be a real swerve is if the game hyped up some big bad for hours as the guy who is clearly going to beat the cocky, undefeated T'Challa in a ceremonial challenge... only for T'Challa to straight whoop his ass for an hour straight, making him tap out, and then saying... "well... that was easier than i thought it was gonna be.." Now that would be a GOAT swerve

[Rumble]

I also demand an Herbal supplements joke

See, I believe 2 things:

(1) I believe "Judge Dredd, Blade, Terminator" Black Panther is a thing (i.e. CA:CW T'Challa) and he does show emotion (daddy dying) and make funny ("I don't Care"/"As much as I would love to see you two hot babes fight...")

(2) I believe MCU T'Challa should quip and his quips should be deadpan like in the Ultimates scan. "Herbal supplements" is GOAT

think T'Challa can and should quip, but i think his quips are

[Cville]

Denys Cowan will be at HeroesCon in Charlotte in June. If you have the Gillis mini, he did the pencils.

[MindofShadow]

Between EMH, Thorne cartoon, and BP movie, i think i'm good with ceremonial challenges. Forever.

The whole shock value of "ommmfg BP lost! T'Undertaker's Wakandamania streak is over!!!" kinda loses it's luster after the millionth iteration of seeing him or his pops lose for the first time.

I'm sure if or when he gets a AAA game, they gon have him lose in that one too, on some "I bet yall didn't see that swerve coming!"

Now what would be a real swerve is if the game hyped up some big bad for hours as the guy who is clearly going to beat the cocky, undefeated T'Challa in a ceremonial challenge... only for T'Challa to straight whoop his ass for an hour straight, making him tap out, and then saying... "well... that was easier than i thought it was gonna be.." Now that would be a GOAT swerve

It is such a cool concept that it gets used for every iteration of his origin.

Because it is rather cool and rather unique. Especially to casuals that don't live/eat/breath this stuff.

But yeah, if it shows up in BP2, I just want someone to go, "T'challa, son of T'chaka, I challenge you for the right to the thro..." and T'challa just front kicks his ass across the jungle. The End.

[Agent Z]

Between EMH, Thorne cartoon, and BP movie, i think i'm good with ceremonial challenges. Forever.

The whole shock value of "ommmfg BP lost! T'Undertaker's Wakandamania streak is over!!!" kinda loses it's luster after the millionth iteration of seeing him or his pops lose for the first time.

I'm sure if or when he gets a AAA game, they gon have him lose in that one too, on some "I bet yall didn't see that swerve coming!"

Now what would be a real swerve is if the game hyped up some big bad for hours as the guy who is clearly going to beat the cocky, undefeated T'Challa in a ceremonial challenge... only for T'Challa to straight whoop his ass for an hour straight, making him tap out, and then saying... "well... that was easier than i thought it was gonna be.." Now that would be a GOAT swerve

Worked for Metal Gear Rising



What if we have a compromise? Show T'Challa losing but not in the ceremonial challenge. It shows he's not invincible but in a different way.

[XPac]

Worked for Metal Gear Rising



What if we have a compromise? Show T'Challa losing but not in the ceremonial challenge. It shows he's not invincible but in a different way.

If he did have some sort of RPG sort of game, losing a ceremonial challenge actually would make for a good element in the game because it justifies the character needing to level up and slowly regaining his abilities. A lot of games tend you have you weaker at the start for whatever reason, so you can level up as it progresses and you're able to fight stronger opponents.

So I can actually see them incorporating the challenge in the game. Plus, it's a thing that happened in the movie so they'd probably wanna just throw it in there.

[MindofShadow]

[Blind Wedjat]

I dont believe our understanding of slavery is the same. Slavery didnt start for the Africans forceably taken upon arriving to the Americas. Slavery occurred the moment they were kidnapped and shackled in Africa. That is what slavery is, to be in bondage and in servitude to someone else. The Africans on the transport ships were separated from their families, shackled in close quarters and in small areas with no ventilation, they were forced to eat and exercise, and had to follow the orders of the captain of the ship. They had no freedom, much like Tchalla and the rebels in BP.

You mentioned that there are no elements of the middle passage in Coates book but I respectfully disagree. Being separated from your loved ones, not knowing if you would ever see your home again, and fighting to get back to your home are all elements that I would imagine were experienced by those Africans who had to unfortunately endure the horrors of the middle passage. Could his story making parallels to the middle passage been told differently, of course, but I dont think it is fair to say that his execution has absolutely nothing to do with the middle passage. I wholeheartedly disagree for the reasons I laid out.

You're still missing the point. Everything you're talking about as you mentioned ("Being separated from your loved ones, not knowing if you would ever see your home again, and fighting to get back to your home") are generic ideas on what slavery is about. The Middle Passage includes this because it is part of slavery, yes, but it is also very specific (enough for it to have its own name and discussion). And if you read my post again, you can see the differences I highlighted which I will not explain again.

I didn't put words in Coates' mouth. He is the one that claimed the story is an allegory of the Middle Passage. A work of art cannot claim to be an allegory and then not have direct references to the thing it is trying to reference and make a point about (you yourself just said it could have been done differently). Coates is clearly doing a story about slave rebellion and then pulling ideas from slave trade, not the Middle Passage. He's not being specific enough and is only focusing on the broad ideas of slavery, not the Middle Passage.

I can't write a piece of fiction about the struggle of good and evil and then say it's allegory of the Bible just because the Bible in general is about good and evil. I need to make references to specific events and/or people for it to be an actual allegory. You can't call every good guy who's a "chosen one" an allegory to Jesus Christ just because they're both good guys. They need to have direct references to Jesus one way or the other. And successful allegory has to make sense within the context of the story. I can't call Liu Kang an allegory of Jesus just because he's a "chosen one" type of character in Mortal Kombat, but one can say that about Neo from The Matrix because he does reference Jesus.

The context of the Middle Passage does not make sense within the story of this Black Panther book. As I said, there are specific dynamics and relationships that were present in the Middle Passage that are unique unto its own. All you're proving by mentioning generic ideas about slavery is that Coates simply called it an allegory of the Middle Passage for pretentious points and because it's a generic slave rebellion story involving African characters, when it makes loose references to the broader topic of slave trade.

[MindofShadow]

You're still missing the point. Everything you're talking about as you mentioned ("Being separated from your loved ones, not knowing if you would ever see your home again, and fighting to get back to your home") are generic ideas on what slavery is about. The Middle Passage includes this because it is part of slavery, yes, but it is also very specific (enough for it to have its own name and discussion). And if you read my post again, you can see the differences I highlighted which I will not explain again.

I didn't put words in Coates' mouth. He is the one that claimed the story is an allegory of the Middle Passage. A work of art cannot claim to be an allegory and then not have direct references to the thing it is trying to reference and make a point about (you yourself just said it could have been done differently). Coates is clearly doing a story about slave rebellion and then pulling ideas from slave trade, not the Middle Passage. He's not being specific enough and is only focusing on the broad ideas of slavery, not the Middle Passage.

I can't write a piece of fiction about the struggle of good and evil and then say it's allegory of the Bible just because the Bible in general is about good and evil. I need to make references to specific events and/or people for it to be an actual allegory. You can't call every good guy who's a "chosen one" an allegory to Jesus Christ just because they're both good guys. They need to have direct references to Jesus one way or the other. And successful allegory has to make sense within the context of the story. I can't call Liu Kang an allegory of Jesus just because he's a "chosen one" type of character in Mortal Kombat, but one can say that about Neo from The Matrix because he does reference Jesus.

The context of the Middle Passage does not make sense within the story of this Black Panther book. As I said, there are specific dynamics and relationships that were present in the Middle Passage that are unique unto its own. All you're proving by mentioning generic ideas about slavery is that Coates simply called it an allegory of the Middle Passage for pretentious points and because it's a generic slave rebellion story involving African characters, when it makes loose references to the broader topic of slave trade.

Dude chose Middle Passage specifically, what whatever reason. I have no idea why. Even at a surface level it has nothign to do with the middle passage. I don't know why he just didnt' say slavery. It at least makes some sense then.

It is still just Star Wars though lol