Black Panther Appreciation 2019

[butterflykyss]

You're still missing the point. Everything you're talking about as you mentioned ("Being separated from your loved ones, not knowing if you would ever see your home again, and fighting to get back to your home") are generic ideas on what slavery is about. The Middle Passage includes this because it is part of slavery, yes, but it is also very specific (enough for it to have its own name and discussion). And if you read my post again, you can see the differences I highlighted which I will not explain again.

I didn't put words in Coates' mouth. He is the one that claimed the story is an allegory of the Middle Passage. A work of art cannot claim to be an allegory and then not have direct references to the thing it is trying to reference and make a point about (you yourself just said it could have been done differently). Coates is clearly doing a story about slave rebellion and then pulling ideas from slave trade, not the Middle Passage. He's not being specific enough and is only focusing on the broad ideas of slavery, not the Middle Passage.

I can't write a piece of fiction about the struggle of good and evil and then say it's allegory of the Bible just because the Bible in general is about good and evil. I need to make references to specific events and/or people for it to be an actual allegory. You can't call every good guy who's a "chosen one" an allegory to Jesus Christ just because they're both good guys. They need to have direct references to Jesus one way or the other. And successful allegory has to make sense within the context of the story. I can't call Liu Kang an allegory of Jesus just because he's a "chosen one" type of character in Mortal Kombat, but one can say that about Neo from The Matrix because he does reference Jesus.

The context of the Middle Passage does not make sense within the story of this Black Panther book. As I said, there are specific dynamics and relationships that were present in the Middle Passage that are unique unto its own. All you're proving by mentioning generic ideas about slavery is that Coates simply called it an allegory of the Middle Passage for pretentious points and because it's a generic slave rebellion story involving African characters, when it makes loose references to the broader topic of slave trade.

I understood your point I just dont agree with your analysis. The idea of being separated from loved ones, not knowing if you are going to get back home, and fighting to get back home is not generic themes of slavery, especially if you look at slavery from the perspective of those who were born in the Americas and knew nothing of Africa. Additionally, there were some slaves who lived on plantations with their loved ones (maybe three to four generations even) and never experienced being separated from their families. So it's all about perspective. The experiences of longing for home and fighting to get back home would be something that many black Americans many generations removed from Africa couldn't relate to and was why in Harriet's case when "conducting her train" had to threaten those escaped slaves with death for pushing to go back to their home or plantation - because that was all they new.

Nevertheless, to understand the parallels between the Middle Passage and Coates BP look to his explanation:

"Sure but it’s really the Middle Passage. What Dani captures so well is the distance between T’Challa—kidnapped, mind-wiped and enslaved by Imperials—and his African home, represented by his beloved Storm."

Those elements all of what he said, whether you see them as generic or not, were still crucial aspects that many enslaved African Americans would or could never experience. African Americans predominantly wouldnt have to worry of being kidnapped, or longing and/or fighting for a home they had never been to nor any of their living relatives. So again I respectfully disagree with your points here. Tchalla, seeing that he did one day wake up with ONLY memories of Ororo (or africa) and longing to be with her, then fighting or rebelling to get back to HER is very specific to the Middle passage and what the Africans aboard those ships experienced. Again, just because he didnt execute it to your liking does not mean it has zero connections to it.

[Klaue's Mixtape]

Got damn did Coogler and Joe Robert Cole crush it with this script.


I did agree third act fight went kind of typical Marvel.

[MouserGrey]

I would say if it was a good middle passage allegory their memories would be very fresh and intact, not some dream woman who may or may not be real. And even if that is the case, and since I haven't read Coates since issue 4 or 5, has he explored the memories or dreams of the other characters?

[Klaue's Mixtape]

Remember how sick it was to see Chadwick and Sebastian's brief skirmish in the jail break scene? This nygga super mario jumping 20 feet in the air in wingtips and slacks

You could tell the budget was tight in BP bc that casino fight scene had a super soldier vs a buncha redshirts... a super soldier who we just saw (or didn't see, because of the lightning) do some crazy capoeira **** in pitch dark afrikan jungle, now all of a sudden Okoye fightin better than him lol. Now Coogler did a phenomenal job with the Okoye sequence and the moving camera, but maaaan they better give that brother a bigga budget so that T'Challa can kick every redshirt with the same energy he kicked W'Kabi at the end.

And yea, BP 2 will be interesting because no more depowered fight scenes, which means no more strategic cost-savings on the cgi/special effects budget lol. Mind you, Chad, Erik, and Winston did phenomenal, but maaaaan they better get all them redshirts some harnesses and have them sign them revamped waivers that they gon be gettin tossed around like rag dolls

Honestly I would like to see more warrior falls like scenes. Not depowered, but just how gritty they were. No cgi, just dudes battling using good cuts and choreography. Keep our boy powered but give us some more unique scenes like that.

Honestly I didn't mind Okoye getting that shine because Tchalla made it up on the car chase scenes. But I agree the first part should of been brighter for sure

I think there was a simple solution to making T'Challa badass in BP.

Only have him do ONE blast with the suit. The jump, blast and throw the spear concept was amazing. Although the CGI could have been a tad better.

However, once the CGI appeared to be not on par they should have just re-shot several LONG scenes of T'Challa whooping Wakandans with just hand to hand combat.

Imagine T'Challa having one of these type scenes (no blood though, lol)

[Klaue's Mixtape]

Got damn Coogler give us something like this! We know he can do it because we saw what he did with Creed!

[Huntsman Spider]

We very well could see Anti-Metal in BP2 as well.

The real stuff, not the "anti-metal" in BP comic claws that doesn't act like anti-metal at all lol.

The "cut right through T'chadwick suit" stuff.

Give Zanda an anti-metal knife supplied by Moses Magnum and all of a sudden the game changes.

Plus... T'challa's first suit gets damaged, he has to go to another one... MORE TOYS BABY!

Hmm, as long as we're talking metals that could counter vibranium, what about reverbium? It's basically reverse-vibranium, in that it amplifies instead of dampens the energy it absorbs, thus making it extremely, dangerously volatile. Could have it that in the MCU, it comes about as a result of attempts to duplicate or recreate vibranium, kicking off a new arms race like the advent of the super-soldier did.

[Cville]

I understood your point I just dont agree with your analysis. The idea of being separated from loved ones, not knowing if you are going to get back home, and fighting to get back home is not generic themes of slavery, especially if you look at slavery from the perspective of those who were born in the Americas and knew nothing of Africa. Additionally, there were some slaves who lived on plantations with their loved ones (maybe three to four generations even) and never experienced being separated from their families. So it's all about perspective. The experiences of longing for home and fighting to get back home would be something that many black Americans many generations removed from Africa couldn't relate to and was why in Harriet's case when "conducting her train" had to threaten those escaped slaves with death for pushing to go back to their home or plantation - because that was all they new.

Nevertheless, to understand the parallels between the Middle Passage and Coates BP look to his explanation:

"Sure but it’s really the Middle Passage. What Dani captures so well is the distance between T’Challa—kidnapped, mind-wiped and enslaved by Imperials—and his African home, represented by his beloved Storm."

Those elements all of what he said, whether you see them as generic or not, were still crucial aspects that many enslaved African Americans would or could never experience. African Americans predominantly wouldnt have to worry of being kidnapped, or longing and/or fighting for a home they had never been to nor any of their living relatives. So again I respectfully disagree with your points here. Tchalla, seeing that he did one day wake up with ONLY memories of Ororo (or africa) and longing to be with her, then fighting or rebelling to get back to HER is very specific to the Middle passage and what the Africans aboard those ships experienced. Again, just because he didnt execute it to your liking does mean it has zero connections to it.

Wouldn't this be true of any first generation slave too. Roman galley slaves from conquered countries would've have probably liked to go home. Berber pirates were the terror of southern Europe. Raiding villages and taking slaves.

I think what Wedgat is saying that for this to be a proper analogy the entire arc should have taken place on that ship he liberated an issue or two ago. Tchalla could have woken up on an space slave ship and led a rebellion on that.

Also I don't like the bolded. Without a proper background issue, what we do know is that Tchalla showed up, proved that he was a badass, and worked for the Imperial for most likely a year or two. I've surmised that he got into a Saul vs David situation with the emperor who ordered his execution out of jealousy or fear. Now that we know Achebe is a traitor, he is most likely the one who mind wiped him and sent him to the mines in a weird attempt to save his life. But that is just my speculation.

[Jabare]

Got damn did Coogler and Joe Robert Cole crush it with this script.


I did agree third act fight went kind of typical Marvel.

How does this fit with Kylo Ren?


Anyway MBJ killed it. Crazy he went so deep he needed therapy

[MindofShadow]

Hmm, as long as we're talking metals that could counter vibranium, what about reverbium? It's basically reverse-vibranium, in that it amplifies instead of dampens the energy it absorbs, thus making it extremely, dangerously volatile. Could have it that in the MCU, it comes about as a result of attempts to duplicate or recreate vibranium, kicking off a new arms race like the advent of the super-soldier did.

Wouldn't be surprised if the two concepts were meshed together for the MCU.

Villain (moses?) experiments on vibranium and creates reverbium or anti-metal.

[MindofShadow]

I think there was a simple solution to making T'Challa badass in BP.

Only have him do ONE blast with the suit. The jump, blast and throw the spear concept was amazing. Although the CGI could have been a tad better.

However, once the CGI appeared to be not on par they should have just re-shot several LONG scenes of T'Challa whooping Wakandans with just hand to hand combat.

He only did three though. Car, shield jump, and blowing people off of him. Unlike the comics, it really wasn't overused at all. And it wasn't used to defeat someone one-on-one like Goon Slam. It was entirely appropriate IMO.

The wakandan field fight was solid IMO. The issue with it in regards to JUST T'challa was the fact it had to 600 different fight scenes going on at once. BP vs border tribe. Doras vs Killmonger. Shuri vs Killmonger, Nakia vs Killmonger, Jabaria/Doras vs border tribe, Ross vs fighter jets, BP vs Killmonger. There was a ton going on all at once so T'challa never got the full focus during the climax.

[Klaue's Mixtape]

He only did three though. Car, shield jump, and blowing people off of him. Unlike the comics, it really wasn't overused at all. And it wasn't used to defeat someone one-on-one like Goon Slam. It was entirely appropriate IMO.

The wakandan field fight was solid IMO. The issue with it in regards to JUST T'challa was the fact it had to 600 different fight scenes going on at once. BP vs border tribe. Doras vs Killmonger. Shuri vs Killmonger, Nakia vs Killmonger, Jabaria/Doras vs border tribe, Ross vs fighter jets, BP vs Killmonger. There was a ton going on all at once so T'challa never got the full focus during the climax.

Fair. I just think T'Challa wiping the floor with the Border Tribe (no blast) would have been his elevator/Winter Soldier moment. I know a lot was going on, but he needed more imo.

Also the athleticism of BP in BP>> Civil War. They just made him too rubbery at times with the CGI models. However, that spin kick he does before getting hit by the rhino...perfection.

[Ezyo1000]

Winter Soldier hit him hard enough to dislodge him, even in the suit. So could Cap.

Or someone as strong as a grenade launcher or rhino would work lol

I know what they should do, bring in Black dwarf and let them fight on screen for real this time. No quick, awkward, CGI scene, no banner bs. Tchalla doing what Hickman should of done in TRO

[Ezyo1000]

I think there was a simple solution to making T'Challa badass in BP.

Only have him do ONE blast with the suit. The jump, blast and throw the spear concept was amazing. Although the CGI could have been a tad better.

However, once the CGI appeared to be not on par they should have just re-shot several LONG scenes of T'Challa whooping Wakandans with just hand to hand combat.

Imagine T'Challa having one of these type scenes (no blood though, lol)

Nah, the Force push was fine, you want to establish it to have it stick. All the scenes withbit were fine. What was needed was just a cleaner 3rd act. Specifically Erik and T'Challas fight could of had more weight to the blows. But BP 2 Will Make up for it.

[Dariel81]

Attachment 80480Attachment 80481

Avenge The Fallen..

[Ezyo1000]

Fair. I just think T'Challa wiping the floor with the Border Tribe (no blast) would have been his elevator/Winter Soldier moment. I know a lot was going on, but he needed more imo.

Also the athleticism of BP in BP>> Civil War. They just made him too rubbery at times with the CGI models. However, that spin kick he does before getting hit by the rhino...perfection.

I mean, the force push the shield into the spear throw was cooler then watching him mow through redshirts in a standard Cap way. BP is unique and how Coogler want about fights was unique. Just give him another scene like the trafficker scene but brighten it up and it will be good