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  1. #3736
    Incredible Member Vibranium Weave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    Minor point.

    We're talking about Red Shirts, not Red Skins. T'Challa isn't in the NFL.

    Come on, people
    Typo, I meant " redshirts" lol

  2. #3737
    Old-School Otaku DigiCom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    It is like having good story tellers elevates the characters....

    Stunning!
    I know! It's like good writing actually MEANS something!

  3. #3738
    Astonishing Member Blind Wedjat's Avatar
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    Well it seems I gave everyone the wrong idea . So I'll outline my points a bit better (also the discussion afterwards has helped).

    1. T'Challa shouldn't struggle against regular guys (red shirts). I was not in any way advocating for this. When I initially made a reference to the Daredevil fights, it's really because of the cinematography. The third season used long takes a lot and I know that's Coogler's style so that's why I made that comparison. T'Challa with his enhanced physicality, training and gear would one shot regular guys (like he did in the forest fight).

    2. T'Challa could take down regular guys (and Winter Soldier level threats) in one move theoretically. He has access to the technology to do it. The force push (and upgrades suggested) could do that. It's "cool" but I just don't think it's "T'Challa cool" or "Black Panther cool" if you know what I mean. Guys like Priest, Hudlin, Liss, Aaron with SWaD all established what T'Challa is capable of. Not necessarily what the suit or tech is, but what he is. I'd argue in spite of the different array of takes we've had over the years after, these four remain and form the definitive version of T'Challa. Priest compared to the other three used the most tech, but it was more so about how it was used to face a wide variety of opponents and situations. Moreover, the tech was a lot more complimentary of his own abilities and intellect. The claws, boots, energy daggers and kimoyo card altogether both complemented his fighting skills and his ingenuity without being overwhelming.

    3. The force push in itself isn't overwhelming, but when it starts going beyond its conception and starts doing thing it doesn't need to, it becomes overwhelming. Likewise, T'Challa doesn't need a new piece of tech if his abilities or current tech can already do it. I see T'Challa as someone who adheres to Jeet Kune Do philosophy by Bruce Lee (the "fighting style" is also something MCU T'Challa could use @BoW). It's all about casting off what isn't necessary and leaving what is important. All of T'Challa's tech should be necessary and not just there because he can have it. Priest's simple loadout fits this, and it's why for the most part is has stuck. But it can be retooled to fit the times. The weave is now nanotech, the kimoyo card is now a wearable computer. The claws really don't have to change. The energy daggers are tough because they're largely undefined (pure energy constructs or vibranium daggers?) and they can be redundant or useful. But the ability to read and counter frequencies is important. The soles are necessary, and become part of the overall energy absorbing thing extended to the boots. Apply this same property to the gloves, with option to release kinetic energy. Doesn't that all sound good? Just as a base?

    4. At the end of the day, we know that T'Challa can blitz multiple guys. We know he can fight alien werewolves and tailor made super Skrulls with his bare hands. We know he can wrestle 1 ton rhinos, fight his namesake, leap several heights and outrun speeding cars, move faster than Spider-Man and so on. Most of the things we would want his tech to do, he could do it himself. I don't care about his enemies standing a chance. They should all get their heads bashed in. I just want it to look "T'Challa cool" when he does it.
    Last edited by Blind Wedjat; 03-30-2019 at 02:16 PM.

  4. #3739
    Astonishing Member Blind Wedjat's Avatar
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    Is this...



    ...cooler than this?


  5. #3740
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blind Wedjat View Post
    Well it seems I gave everyone the wrong idea . So I'll outline my points a bit better (also the discussion afterwards has helped).

    1. T'Challa shouldn't struggle against regular guys (red shirts). I was not in any way advocating for this. When I initially made a reference to the Daredevil fights, it's really because of the cinematography. The third season used long takes a lot and I know that's Coogler's style so that's why I made that comparison. T'Challa with his enhanced physicality, training and gear would one shot regular guys (like he did in the forest fight).

    2. T'Challa could take down regular guys (and Winter Soldier level threats) in one move theoretically. He has access to the technology to do it. The force push (and upgrades suggested) could do that. It's "cool" but I just don't think it's "T'Challa cool" or "Black Panther cool" if you know what I mean. Guys like Priest, Hudlin, Liss, Aaron with SWaD all established what T'Challa is capable of. Not necessarily what the suit or tech is, but what he is. I'd argue in spite of the different array of takes we've had over the years after, these four remain and form the definitive version of T'Challa. Priest compared to the other three used the most tech, but it was more so about how it was used to face a wide variety of opponents and situations. Moreover, the tech was a lot more complimentary of his own abilities and intellect. The claws, boots, energy daggers and kimoyo card altogether both complemented his fighting skills and his ingenuity without being overwhelming.

    3. The force push in itself isn't overwhelming, but when it starts going beyond its conception and starts doing thing it doesn't need to, it becomes overwhelming. Likewise, T'Challa doesn't need a new piece of tech if his abilities or current tech can already do it. I see T'Challa as someone who adheres to Jeet Kun Do philosophy by Bruce Lee (the "fighting style" is also something MCU T'Challa could use @BoW). It's all about casting off what isn't necessary and leaving what is important. All of T'Challa's tech should be necessary and not just there because he can have it. Priest's simple loadout fits this, and it's why for the most part is has stuck. But it can be retooled to fit the times. The weave is now nanotech, the kimoyo card is now a wearable computer. The claws really don't have to change. The energy daggers are tough because they're largely undefined (pure energy constructs or vibranium daggers?) and they can be redundant or useful. But the ability to read and counter frequencies is important. The soles are necessary, and become part of the overall energy absorbing thing extended to the boots. Apply this same property to the gloves, with option to release kinetic energy. Doesn't that all sound good? Just as a base?

    4. At the end of the day, we know that T'Challa can blitz multiple guys. We know he can fight alien werewolves and tailor made super Skrulls with his bare hands. We know he can wrestle 1 ton rhinos, fight his namesake, leap several heights and outrun speeding cars, move faster than Spider-Man and so on. Most of the things we would want his tech to do, he could do it himself. I don't care about his enemies standing a chance. They should all get their heads bashed in. I just want it to look "T'Challa cool" when he does it.
    I think the important thing to remember is at the end of the day T'Challa should be beating his opponents with a punch to the face. As long as that holds true, the tech shouldn't be problem.

    It's fine for Iron Man to beat people with tech, because that's his thing. But T'Challa is one of the best martial artists in the world. That should never be lost to whatever new toy he comes up with. I think the tech can enhance his fighting skills, but it shouldn't replace it (which is sort of the fundamental issue with the force push, even though it's a very logical upgrade). If the credit starts going to the gear instead of the man too often, then something is wrong.

    But as long as the majority of his fights end with him punching someone in the face, then it's probably good.

  6. #3741
    Extraordinary Member Cville's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    I think the important thing to remember is at the end of the day T'Challa should be beating his opponents with a punch to the face. As long as that holds true, the tech shouldn't be problem.

    It's fine for Iron Man to beat people with tech, because that's his thing. But T'Challa is one of the best martial artists in the world. That should never be lost to whatever new toy he comes up with. I think the tech can enhance his fighting skills, but it shouldn't replace it (which is sort of the fundamental issue with the force push, even though it's a very logical upgrade). If the credit starts going to the gear instead of the man too often, then something is wrong.

    But as long as the majority of his fights end with him punching someone in the face, then it's probably good.
    What if the majority of the people he has to fight as the final boss have strength and durability at Luke Cage level and above.

  7. #3742
    Astonishing Member Blind Wedjat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cville View Post
    What if the majority of the people he has to fight as the final boss have strength and durability at Luke Cage level and above.
    1. KE enhanced blows

    2. Claws

    3. Energy daggers

    4. Pressure points

    5. Any other specific tech

    6. Commands his fighter jet to take them out?

  8. #3743
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cville View Post
    What if the majority of the people he has to fight as the final boss have strength and durability at Luke Cage level and above.
    Apart from Klaw, I think the physically strongest person in his rogues gallery I believe in M'Baku, who has Spider-Man level strength. But hypothetically speaking, if the majority of his rogues gallery consisted of mid-tier bricks than either his powerset or gear set would obviously need to accomodate that. Though it kind of does with the force push anyways.

    Even without it, there are things like nerves strikes and such which can allow him to defeat more powerful opponents purely with skill. But if he fougth mid-tier bricks the majority of the time, he would require abilities more suited to deal with that. Fighting straight hand to hand would make less sense.

    Though honestly, I'm not sure you'd want to give a guy a rogues gallery consisting of bricks unless you were a brick yourself. Having 1-2 guys sure, but you're probably not going to have a rogues gallery full of bricks unless you're a brick.
    Last edited by XPac; 03-30-2019 at 02:44 PM.

  9. #3744
    Original CBR member Jabare's Avatar
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    The J-man

  10. #3745
    Ultimate Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blind Wedjat View Post
    Is this...



    ...cooler than this?

    We have already established thst Coates over used the force push. It was a crutch because he doesn't know how to write fight scenes. Also everyone agrees with you that the force push should not be over used. Coogler did not do this in the Solo. The Russo's however, DID do this in IW. That's a risk for anything though. Lack of creativity and unimaginative use of characters can result in the overuse of a specific piece of gear or power.

    I think a better comparison picture would of been the Tro vs Avengers avengers issue where T'Challa and Tony solar flare the vampires on showing more tech based feat vs h2h

  11. #3746
    Incredible Member Vibranium Weave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blind Wedjat View Post
    Well it seems I gave everyone the wrong idea . So I'll outline my points a bit better (also the discussion afterwards has helped).

    1. T'Challa shouldn't struggle against regular guys (red shirts). I was not in any way advocating for this. When I initially made a reference to the Daredevil fights, it's really because of the cinematography. The third season used long takes a lot and I know that's Coogler's style so that's why I made that comparison. T'Challa with his enhanced physicality, training and gear would one shot regular guys (like he did in the forest fight).

    2. T'Challa could take down regular guys (and Winter Soldier level threats) in one move theoretically. He has access to the technology to do it. The force push (and upgrades suggested) could do that. It's "cool" but I just don't think it's "T'Challa cool" or "Black Panther cool" if you know what I mean. Guys like Priest, Hudlin, Liss, Aaron with SWaD all established what T'Challa is capable of. Not necessarily what the suit or tech is, but what he is. I'd argue in spite of the different array of takes we've had over the years after, these four remain and form the definitive version of T'Challa. Priest compared to the other three used the most tech, but it was more so about how it was used to face a wide variety of opponents and situations. Moreover, the tech was a lot more complimentary of his own abilities and intellect. The claws, boots, energy daggers and kimoyo card altogether both complemented his fighting skills and his ingenuity without being overwhelming.

    3. The force push in itself isn't overwhelming, but when it starts going beyond its conception and starts doing thing it doesn't need to, it becomes overwhelming. Likewise, T'Challa doesn't need a new piece of tech if his abilities or current tech can already do it. I see T'Challa as someone who adheres to Jeet Kune Do philosophy by Bruce Lee (the "fighting style" is also something MCU T'Challa could use @BoW). It's all about casting off what isn't necessary and leaving what is important. All of T'Challa's tech should be necessary and not just there because he can have it. Priest's simple loadout fits this, and it's why for the most part is has stuck. But it can be retooled to fit the times. The weave is now nanotech, the kimoyo card is now a wearable computer. The claws really don't have to change. The energy daggers are tough because they're largely undefined (pure energy constructs or vibranium daggers?) and they can be redundant or useful. But the ability to read and counter frequencies is important. The soles are necessary, and become part of the overall energy absorbing thing extended to the boots. Apply this same property to the gloves, with option to release kinetic energy. Doesn't that all sound good? Just as a base?

    4. At the end of the day, we know that T'Challa can blitz multiple guys. We know he can fight alien werewolves and tailor made super Skrulls with his bare hands. We know he can wrestle 1 ton rhinos, fight his namesake, leap several heights and outrun speeding cars, move faster than Spider-Man and so on. Most of the things we would want his tech to do, he could do it himself. I don't care about his enemies standing a chance. They should all get their heads bashed in. I just want it to look "T'Challa cool" when he does it.
    I agree that T'Challa should be able to blitz "redshirts". Adapting the daredevil fighting choreograph to Black Panther would not be bad, but he wouldn't need as many punches to take out goons as DD.

  12. #3747
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    We have already established thst Coates over used the force push. It was a crutch because he doesn't know how to write fight scenes. Also everyone agrees with you that the force push should not be over used. Coogler did not do this in the Solo. The Russo's however, DID do this in IW. That's a risk for anything though. Lack of creativity and unimaginative use of characters can result in the overuse of a specific piece of gear or power.

    I think a better comparison picture would of been the Tro vs Avengers avengers issue where T'Challa and Tony solar flare the vampires on showing more tech based feat vs h2h
    Though it's fair to be critical for over-using the force push, the reality is that he probably needed to ram that ability down the readers throats in order to make it stick. So many pieces of T'Challa's gear come and go, and a big part of the reason that's the case is because he's not used enough to really make an impression. If you want a new piece of gear to get over, you give it a name, explain it, and use it until people are almost sick of it. That's how something becomes standard gear. Otherwise it goes into the limbo heap with Shadow physics and the purple boxing gloves.

  13. #3748
    Ultimate Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blind Wedjat View Post
    1. KE enhanced blows

    2. Claws

    3. Energy daggers

    4. Pressure points

    5. Any other specific tech

    6. Commands his fighter jet to take them out?
    This.

    Lol at Tchalla having to punch out opponents. Priest had BP beat IF with his kimoyo earpiece, Ironman with the Ultron code. Outsmarted Mephisto, he can take baddies how in a multitude of ways because he has multiple avenue's to do so. H2h, tech, super genius, he isn't limited in his capabilities. He probably the most versatile hero in the MU in terms of stories he can fit into due to his power set ad a whole
    Last edited by Ezyo1000; 03-30-2019 at 04:26 PM.

  14. #3749
    Extraordinary Member Cville's Avatar
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    Jesse Holland didnt get the win for best novel. Still, the nomination defied the laws of time. Lol
    Last edited by Cville; 03-30-2019 at 04:36 PM.

  15. #3750
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    This.

    Lol at Tchalla having to punch out opponents. Priest had BP beat IF with his kimoyo earpiece, Ironman with the Ultron code. Outsmarted Mephisto, he can take baddies how in a multitude of ways because he has multiple avenue's to do so. H2h, tech, super genius, he isn't limited in his capabilities. He probably the most versatile hero in the MU in terms of stories he can fit into due to his power set ad a whole
    Sure he's versatile. Versalite enough to the point where he doesn't need to throw a punch because his gear can do the work for him. The point being you don't WANT the gear to overshadow the man. It CAN, but that doesn't mean you want it to. He shouldn't be an Iron Man, even if he can be. Just because a force push can do everything a punch and kick can do (and more), doesn't mean that's what he should be relying on to win fights. His skill as a fighter should never be overshadowed by what his gear can do.

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