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  1. #406
    Extraordinary Member Mike_Murdock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redjack View Post
    unrealistic, oversaturated afrocentrism that depicts Africa as a holy place (instead of, y'know, a PLACE humans live) that would have been utopia if not for colonialism. Nope. Sorry. that's not reality.
    I do think this mindset is pretty central to Reginald Hudlin's Black Panther. It's not realistic but for comics escapism, it can still be pretty fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beware Of Geek View Post
    This is true. OTOH, when a book has reached a stable level, a relaunch often does more harm than good. After all, every new jumping on point is also a new jumping-OFF point.
    I agree with that. I haven't jumped off Black Panther but I know I dropped Captain Marvel when Margaret Stohl took over not so much because I had any complaints about the new book but because I had other books I wanted to read instead.

    I wonder how many readers left BP because Coates ignored his status quo with this whole "Galactic Empire Of Wakanda" business.
    That's an interesting question. As far as "keep the writer" reboots, a complete change in status quo like this one is a bit more easily seen as a fresh start (I assume Jason Aaron's Thor is the same way), but that doesn't mean people like the new status quo better than the old.
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  2. #407
    Mighty Member Redjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkrook View Post
    Interesting way that you put it. Do you think that afrocentric content is oversaturating the American social media market, or there some kind of overhyping of the perception of ancient up to modern Africa?
    no. it's an illness in our subculture where disillusioned members strain towards an idealized version of Perfect Utopian Africa to fill the gaps the USA has left in their self-esteem. There was some awesome amazing stuff going on in ancient Africa but they where just human beings like the rest of everybody else.

  3. #408
    Extraordinary Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    Lets just hope T'Challa gets back from space in time to examine his role as Avengers leader.

    By a guest writer.
    Really it's been a kick in the pants to Coates because literally everywhere else in the MU has shown T'Challa fully realised and a badass except for in his own book.

    Like did Coates really think that people would accept his version (weak, deflated, delegating everything from mini bosses to his own rogues, to the big bad of the arc to supporting cast members who aren't apart of his mythos) as the new status quo going forward in the MU? I mean people tried, and they tried hard, to play up Coates version as this deep, cerebral, "realistic" version and even made articles about how Tchalla was a "Weak protagonist" in the sense that he wasn't above asking for help (which was funny because the issue the article was about, Rise 3, completely contradicted the entire article) and all this stuff.

    Then the movie dropped, re-established that Tchalla ain't one to frak with, then all of a sudden we getting Okoye, Nu-Nakia, Wakanda forever salutes and s3 T'Challa has more base in his voice then shown since Coates got on the book. On top of Redjack KILLIN IT on the cartoon side with our T'Challa, and the rest of the MU showing the real T'Challa... Coates either has to hop on the train or get left at the station

  4. #409
    Get Hectic! FLEX HECTIC's Avatar
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    Is Hotep an African form of Dubstep...


    Asking for a friend!


    Get Hectic!

  5. #410
    CBB 4 LIFE Mr MajestiK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redjack View Post
    unrealistic, oversaturated afrocentrism that depicts Africa as a holy place (instead of, y'know, a PLACE humans live) that would have been utopia if not for colonialism. Nope. Sorry. that's not reality.
    My understanding of the term "Hotep" is that it's an ancient Egyptian word which losely translates as "Peace."

    The fact that the term has how been twisted into a derogatory term to describe anyone with an Afrocentric mindset, is quite unfortunate.

    Being an individual of West African descent myself, I can well imagine what West Africa in particular and the rest of Africa in general, may have turned out to be sans the Transatlantic Slave Trade, the carving up of most of Africa by Western nations into colonial potentates and the subsequent unfair trade practices foisted upon Africa by the West.

    I don't believe in absolute utopias myself, but it's worth bearing in mind that prior to Ghaddafi's Western orchestrated demise, Libya was amongst one of the most developed nations in Africa with free healthcare, free education and an overall better standard of living than exists in most of the Western nations whose political tampering has how transformed Libya into a modern day slave port where West Africans are sold to the highest bidders across the middle East.

    Funnily enough, that's the type of "reality" that Ta Nehisi Coates an African-American, saw fit to write into the Afrofuturistic Wakandan BP mythos that two gentlemen of Jewish hereditary launched all the way back in 1966 decades before the term Afrofuturism was even coined.

    Funny old world we live in.

    Western colonialism following on in the wake of the Transatlantic Slave Trade, did a number on the development of Africa that's had a negative impact all the way from the Motherland to the entire diaspora.

    There's no getting away from this absolute truism in my humble opinion.

    Hotep. (Peace.)
    Last edited by Mr MajestiK; 01-13-2019 at 09:30 AM.
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  6. #411
    CBB 4 LIFE Mr MajestiK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redjack View Post
    no. it's an illness in our subculture where disillusioned members strain towards an idealized version of Perfect Utopian Africa to fill the gaps the USA has left in their self-esteem. There was some awesome amazing stuff going on in ancient Africa but they where just human beings like the rest of everybody else.
    An "illness?"

    Really?

    Has anyone realistically stated that ancient Africans where anything but human?

    If ancient Africa had been allowed to continue uninterrupted, who's to say that the "awesome amazing stuff" wouldn't have continued into the modern age?

    If anything at all, I'd like to believe that Afrocentrism coupled with Afrofuturism and a rebirth if the Black family aesthetic that's taken s consistent and well organised hammering over centuries, are factors that would work wonders for the self esteem of people of African descent all over the modern world.

    That's probably why the Black Panther movie resonated with so many people of African, African-American and Carribean heritage across the entire diaspora.
    Enjoying the camraderie of friends and family is all that matters in the world.

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  7. #412
    CBB 4 LIFE Mr MajestiK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    Really it's been a kick in the pants to Coates because literally everywhere else in the MU has shown T'Challa fully realised and a badass except for in his own book.

    Like did Coates really think that people would accept his version (weak, deflated, delegating everything from mini bosses to his own rogues, to the big bad of the arc to supporting cast members who aren't apart of his mythos) as the new status quo going forward in the MU? I mean people tried, and they tried hard, to play up Coates version as this deep, cerebral, "realistic" version and even made articles about how Tchalla was a "Weak protagonist" in the sense that he wasn't above asking for help (which was funny because the issue the article was about, Rise 3, completely contradicted the entire article) and all this stuff.

    Then the movie dropped, re-established that Tchalla ain't one to frak with, then all of a sudden we getting Okoye, Nu-Nakia, Wakanda forever salutes and s3 T'Challa has more base in his voice then shown since Coates got on the book. On top of Redjack KILLIN IT on the cartoon side with our T'Challa, and the rest of the MU showing the real T'Challa... Coates either has to hop on the train or get left at the station
    Ta Nehis Coates preferred "realism" for the BP mythos and Wakanda were firmly rooted in a derogatory take on Africa as viewed through a lense of wilful ignorance.

    The concept of a futuristic, advanced and unified nation of unsullied and unconquered Africans (albeit within a fictional setting) was just impossible for him to countenance.

    Rape camps, rampant misogyny and a wholly manufactured gender war were Coates chosen vision for the BP mythos before the BP movie dropped.

    Even his belated pseudo course correction with this Galactic Wakandan malarkey remains well steeped in dysfunctional ism and confusion.

    The sooner Coates run comes to an end and a writer who's genuinely invested in a BP mythos steeped in the fantastical, the better.
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  8. #413
    CBB 4 LIFE Mr MajestiK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLEX HECTIC View Post
    Is Hotep an African form of Dubstep...


    Asking for a friend!


    This is beautiful.

    Thanks for posting this FLEX.
    Enjoying the camraderie of friends and family is all that matters in the world.

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  9. #414
    Get Hectic! FLEX HECTIC's Avatar
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    I think I'm going to start charging for my posts...


    Should I use Patreon or PayPal?
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  10. #415
    CBB 4 LIFE Mr MajestiK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLEX HECTIC View Post
    I think I'm going to start charging for my posts...


    Should I use Patreon or PayPal?
    Your posts are legendary and as such, priceless.
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  11. #416
    Get Hectic! FLEX HECTIC's Avatar
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    Thanks Maj!
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  12. #417
    Mighty Member Redjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr MajestiK View Post
    An "illness?"

    Really?

    Has anyone realistically stated that ancient Africans where anything but human?

    If ancient Africa had been allowed to continue uninterrupted, who's to say that the "awesome amazing stuff" wouldn't have continued into the modern age?

    If anything at all, I'd like to believe that Afrocentrism coupled with Afrofuturism and a rebirth if the Black family aesthetic that's taken s consistent and well organised hammering over centuries, are factors that would work wonders for the self esteem of people of African descent all over the modern world.

    That's probably why the Black Panther movie resonated with so many people of African, African-American and Carribean heritage across the entire diaspora.
    Yeah. An illness. It's an understandable one, and intentionally inflicted on our subculture, but still detrimental and nurturing a core insecurity and self-loathing. It's taken different names over the decades but it's the same as ever. It's treatable, of course. Fiction ultimately always falls to facts.

    I'm mindful of this in any work I create that touches on the diaspora but, at the core, the illness is the result of a failure to impress upon these minds the massive achievements of their American ancestors rather than their connection to some mythical and, yes, fictional, utopian Africa that makes them great.

    The movie resonated for a lot of reasons, some of them being the ones you list. But it also was a massive offset to the white supremacy doctrine pushed by close to 100% of Hollywood output, made well by gifted practitioners. Also, just damned fine piece of film making, full stop. Once again, the VAST majority of the people who went to see that movie were neither African nor of African descent (beyond the fact that all humans are of African descent).
    Last edited by Redjack; 01-12-2019 at 11:55 PM.

  13. #418
    CBB 4 LIFE Mr MajestiK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redjack View Post
    Yeah. An illness. It's an understandable one, and intentionally inflicted on our subculture, but still detrimental and nurturing a core insecurity and self-loathing. It's taken different names over the decades but it's the same as ever. It's treatable, of course. Fiction ultimately always falls to facts.

    I'm mindful of this in any work I create that touches on the diaspora but, at the core, the illness is the result of a failure to impress upon these minds the massive achievements of their American ancestors rather than their connection to some mythical and, yes, fictional, utopian Africa that makes them great.

    The movie resonated for a lot of reasons, some of them being the ones you list. But it also was a massive offset to the white supremacy doctrine pushed by close to 100% of Hollywood output, made well by gifted practitioners. Also, just damned fine piece of film making, full stop. Once again, the VAST majority of the people who went to see that movie were neither African nor of African descent (beyond the fact that all humans are of African descent).
    Unless you're a Psychologist by profession who's carried out controlled studies on a wide enough segment or cross section of individuals in question, I feel it's innapropriate to refer to anyone as having an "illness" just because they subscribe to a belief system that you don't personally agree with or support.

    Most of the people I know who subscribe to a afrocentric point of view, have done their due diligence as regards researching what obtained in ancient Africa prior to the Transatlantic Slave Trade so implying that they have an "illness" for choosing to aquaint themselves with knowledge of their ancestors and the well structured societies and African kingdoms that prevailed before Western invasion is rather unfortunate.

    As for who went to see the Black Panther movie in droves, there's no doubt that a lot of other demographics went out to see this movie as would be the case with most other block buster movies. That however in no way changes the fact that people of African descent from the Motherland and all across the diaspora went to view the Black Panther movie in overwhelming numbers on multiple occasions in a very celebratory manner the likes of which have not been seen for many years.

    That movie was damn near a cultural celebration of Afrocentric Afrofuturism, that resonated deeply on so many different levels.

    Unfortunately, some creators still can't bring themselves to see Africa in its entirety as being anything other than a war and disease ravaged continent replete with Rape Camps and the such like as they feel driven to portray "reality" within a nation that's just as fictional as Asgard, Atlantis and Kun Lun.
    Last edited by Mr MajestiK; 01-13-2019 at 09:33 AM.
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  14. #419
    Extraordinary Member Mike_Murdock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr MajestiK View Post
    Funnily enough, that's the type of "reality" that Ta Nehisi Coates an African-American, saw fit to write into the Afrofuturistic Wakandan BP mythos that two gentlemen of Jewish hereditary launched all the way back in 1966 decades before the term Afrofuturism was even coined.
    Keep in mind that those two gentlemen did not write a story of an advanced African nation that was that way because it was untouched by the western world. They wrote of a primitive nation that was able to quickly gain scientific prominence because they had a lucky natural resource and were willing to use both sides of the Cold War to their advantage. This isn't intended to take anything away from Jack Kirby (or, to a lesser extent, Stan Lee) who deserve a lot of credit for what they were willing to do in creating a technologically advanced (and arguably superior) African nation, but there's a lot of stuff in the initial appearance of the Black Panther that is far from ideal.
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  15. #420
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_Murdock View Post
    Keep in mind that those two gentlemen did not write a story of an advanced African nation that was that way because it was untouched by the western world. They wrote of a primitive nation that was able to quickly gain scientific prominence because they had a lucky natural resource and were willing to use both sides of the Cold War to their advantage. This isn't intended to take anything away from Jack Kirby (or, to a lesser extent, Stan Lee) who deserve a lot of credit for what they were willing to do in creating a technologically advanced (and arguably superior) African nation, but there's a lot of stuff in the initial appearance of the Black Panther that is far from ideal.
    The notions of advanced and ideal are seldom if ever interchangeable in sci-fi.

    There are very few stories of seemingly Utopian societies in diction that don't inevitably hammer in the point that they still have the same problems as everyone else.

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