Black Panther Appreciation 2019

[DigiCom]

There are several reasons for that:

1. Dystopias are more visually dramatic.
2. Utopias can be rather dull. The Federation (in Star Trek) didn't really become interesting until DS9 started showing the cracks in the facade
3. Utopias also tend to be condescending, when dealing with outsiders. After all, they "know better".

That being said, it IS possible. The late Iain M. Banks' Culture novels come to mind.

[Mr MajestiK]

The notions of advanced and ideal are seldom if ever interchangeable in sci-fi.

There are very few stories of seemingly Utopian societies in diction that don't inevitably hammer in the point that they still have the same problems as everyone else.

Are there Rape Camps in Atlantis, Asgard or Kun Lun?

[Mr MajestiK]

Keep in mind that those two gentlemen did not write a story of an advanced African nation that was that way because it was untouched by the western world. They wrote of a primitive nation that was able to quickly gain scientific prominence because they had a lucky natural resource and were willing to use both sides of the Cold War to their advantage. This isn't intended to take anything away from Jack Kirby (or, to a lesser extent, Stan Lee) who deserve a lot of credit for what they were willing to do in creating a technologically advanced (and arguably superior) African nation, but there's a lot of stuff in the initial appearance of the Black Panther that is far from ideal.

And in your summation is there any "primitive" society that did not use natural resources or other means to build themselves up moving forward?

If the ancient Wakandans did hot have an innate level of intelligence that existed prior to the Vibranium meteor crashing within their borders, they wouldn't have been in any position to develop viable technology utilising Vibraniums unique properties.

I haven't read anything within the BP mythos to date, that suggests that Wakanda relied on the West for any of their scientific discoveries or societal developments.

[XPac]

There are several reasons for that:

1. Dystopias are more visually dramatic.
2. Utopias can be rather dull. The Federation (in Star Trek) didn't really become interesting until DS9 started showing the cracks in the facade
3. Utopias also tend to be condescending, when dealing with outsiders. After all, they "know better".

That being said, it IS possible. The late Iain M. Banks' Culture novels come to mind.

Yeah, Stark Trek is the closest thing to utopian society I can think of in mainstream sci-fi. Even with the cracks we started to see as time went on, it still seems like damn near paradise compared to a lot of it's sci-fi peers (Star Wars, Babylon 5, Battlestar Galactics, Firefly, etc). That said, the few cracks we did end up seeing ended up making the Federation a lot more interesting. The Maquis stuff for example.

[DigiCom]

And in your summation is there any "primitive" society that did not use natural resources or other means to build themselves up moving forward?

If the ancient Wakandans did hot have an innate level of intelligence that existed prior to the Vibranium meteor crashing within their borders, they wouldn't have been in any position to develop viable technology utilising Vibraniums unique properties.

I haven't read anything within the BP mythos to date, that suggests that Wakanda relied on the West for any of their scientific discoveries or societal developments.

I believe Mike was referring more to the fact that many African countries in the 60's were able to use one of their natural resources to bootstrap their technological advancement. This was almost certainly one of the original inspirations for Wakanda, as one common term for these countries in those days was "coal tiger".

[Mr MajestiK]

I believe Mike was referring more to the fact that many African countries in the 60's were able to use one of their natural resources to bootstrap their technological advancement. This was almost certainly one of the original inspirations for Wakanda, as one common term for these countries in those days was "coal tiger".

I understand that.

My point is that Wakanda has never been reliant on outsiders for their technology or societal innovation.

[DigiCom]

I understand that.

My point is that Wakanda has never been reliant on outsiders for their technology or societal innovation.

This is true, although at the beginning (and for some time afterwards) the implication was that they were reliant on T'CHALLA for it.

[Ezyo1000]

Ta Nehis Coates preferred "realism" for the BP mythos and Wakanda were firmly rooted in a derogatory take on Africa as viewed through a lense of wilful ignorance.

The concept of a futuristic, advanced and unified nation of unsullied and unconquered Africans (albeit within a fictional setting) was just impossible for him to countenance.

Rape camps, rampant misogyny and a wholly manufactured gender war were Coates chosen vision for the BP mythos before the BP movie dropped.

Even his belated pseudo course correction with this Galactic Wakandan malarkey remains well steeped in dysfunctional ism and confusion.

The sooner Coates run comes to an end and a writer who's genuinely invested in a BP mythos steeped in the fantastical, the better.

Your 100% correct, hence why I added that Coates needs to either hop on the train or get left behind, in which Yes he has made improvements over the previous season's, he is far from the fully realised T'Challa or Wakanda, especially given his analogy of Wakandan empire (something we have wanted to see in comics for awhile) relegated to the European slave trade. The constant need to degrade the mythos in the wrongs off European and Western influence, and tacking that onto the mythos in an attempt to claim nthst Wakanda is no better then the rest of the world (or the West in this case) when the draw was that Wakanda was supposed to lead the world in a better direction, they aren't perfect of course, but they strive to be better

[XPac]

This is true, although at the beginning (and for some time afterwards) the implication was that they were reliant on T'CHALLA for it.

Originally they were reliant on T'Challa, who in turn got his education from Europe and America. So prior to Hudlins retcon you could indirectly credit some of Wakandas advancement to the western world. But since Wakanda was retconned to always being advanced, that's moot now.

[Redjack]

Unless you're a Psychologist by profession who's carried out controlled studies on a wide enough segment or cross section of individuals in question, I feel it's innapropriate to refer to anyone as having an "illness" just because they subscribe to a belief system that you don't personally agree with or support.

and yet...

Most of the people I know who subscribe to a afrocentric point of view, have done their due diligence as regards researching what obtained in ancient Africa prior to the Transatlantic Slave Trade so implying that they have an "illness" for choosing to aquaint themselves with knowledge of their ancestors and the well structured societies and African kingdoms that prevailed before Western invasion is rather unfortunate.

you shouldn't assume I don't know as much or more about our collective African heritage, past and present. that would be an error.

As for who went to see the Black Panther movie in droves, there's no doubt that a lot of other demographics went out to see this movie as would be the case with most other block buster movies. That however in no way changes the fact that people of African descent from the Motherland and all across the diaspora went to view the Black Panther movie in overwhelming numbers on multiple occasions in a very celebratory manner the likes of which have not been seen for many years.

yep. and that was awesome and I agreed with all the joy. in fact i was way out in front predicting what would happen. but the fact that the film appealed, literally, to the MASSES, regardless of ethnicity, speaks to its universality. Which I see as its strongest asset. Black faces, black conflict, black love, even fictionalized, placed dead center of a multi-multi-million STAR WARS-sized dollar epic? Gold. I never thought I'd live long enough to see something like get made, much less accepted, much less applauded and celebrated.

That movie was damn near a cultural celebration of Afrocentric Afrofuturism, that resonated deeply on so many different levels.

yep. many. excellent work. I was amazed such a subversive film made it through Marvel and Disney executive and editorial. truly amazed. I think many of the levels were and remain invisible to them and to the wider audience.

Unfortunately, some creators still can't bring themselves to see Africa in its entirety as being anything other than a war and disease ravaged continent replete with Rape Camps and the such like as they feel driven to portray "reality" within a nation that's just as fictional as Asgard, Atlantis and Kun Lun.

yeah. that's not me. this isn't a binary situation.

Jack and Stan made secret cities. A lot. No one ever talks about the Keewazi anymore but I remember them.They all come out of the tradition of Flash Gordon, Buck Rogers and Pellucidar which dominated the filmed, radio and printed fiction of their youth and young adulthood, They gave little or no thought to the "reality" of these creations and injecting too much so-called reality is, ultimately corruptive to them unless done surgically and well (Pries's game-changing run, for instance). The constructs are too thin, in short, to support too much reality being imposed on them.

End of the day, I'm a Black American. Not an African American, not a displaced African. An American. Too many of my folks died for me to be able to claim that for me to ever look at any other place as Mine. So, yes, while I appreciate the empty space that some folks need to fill with Utopian Africa and very much understand why that space is there and who created it in us, I don't share it. i'm lucky. I know that too.

Which is fine. it's not necessary for us to agree on all points.

[Ezyo1000]

no. it's an illness in our subculture where disillusioned members strain towards an idealized version of Perfect Utopian Africa to fill the gaps the USA has left in their self-esteem. There was some awesome amazing stuff going on in ancient Africa but they where just human beings like the rest of everybody else.

This is an interesting post. Are you stating that people of African descent romanticize the idea of Africa untouched by Western influence to an unhealthy extent? I think it's okay to have a what if type mindset, so long as
by followed with it is a strive towards making it a reality or in the case here in the states, not cannibalizing other contributions made by African Americans and sowing division.

Basically take that fantasy and try to make it a reality and not use it as a woe is me and feel sorry for ourselves

[Ezyo1000]

Originally they were reliant on T'Challa, who in turn got his education from Europe and America. So prior to Hudlins retcon you could indirectly credit some of Wakandas advancement to the western world. But since Wakanda was retconned to always being advanced, that's moot now.

No.. T'Challa received education in Wakanda, AND Europe and America. And the reason was to expand his thinking to a view not just soley based in Wakanda. let's not try and play this game of acting like he was reliant on the west for help.

[Redjack]

This is an interesting post. Are you stating that people of African descent romanticize the idea of Africa untouched by Western influence to an unhealthy extent? I think it's okay to have a what if type mindset, so long as
by followed with it is a strive towards making it a reality or in the case here in the states, not cannibalizing other contributions made by African Americans and sowing division.

Basically take that fantasy and try to make it a reality and not use it as a woe is me and feel sorry for ourselves

Odd for someone who does what I do for a living but, no, I'm not a big fan of substituting fantasy for reality IN reality.

When you're talking about creative movements, pretty much anything goes, including afrocentrism or afro futurism. why not? but, when those take the place of what is real, they substitute a false foundation for one that will actually stand up to attack.

In short, you can't solve a problem you haven't properly diagnosed. A placebo treatment won't cure your cancer.

[Ezyo1000]

Odd for someone who does what I do for a living but, no, I'm not a big fan of substituting fantasy for reality IN reality.

When you're talking about creative movements, pretty much anything goes, including afrocentrism or afro futurism. why not? but, when those take the place of what is real, they substitute a false foundation for one that will actually stand up to attack.

In short, you can't solve a problem you haven't properly diagnosed. A placebo treatment won't cure your cancer.

Right, and what I'm saying (I apologize of I didn't make it clear) is the idea of Africa being just as modernize in its own way the same as the rest of the world had it been untouched, and fantasizing that what if, to me is fine as long as what follows that train of thought is "how can we make this fantasy a reality?" Knowing full well the state of Africa and wanting to make a difference. In the state's in More of a how can we celebrate Black creations and thrive for more rather then, in the case of last year, things like pitting Black lead movies against each other (this happened with Black panther and Black klansman, and Black panther and enter the spiderverse) abd instead celebrating both and demanding more of this instead of fighting about Which is more important

[XPac]

No.. T'Challa received education in Wakanda, AND Europe and America. And the reason was to expand his thinking to a view not just soley based in Wakanda. let's not try and play this game of acting like he was reliant on the west for help.

We have to remember that in the original canon, Wakanda wasn't advanced until T'Challa made it advanced. Wakanda couldn't entirely be the reason that T'Challa made Wakanda advanced in the first place. That sort of falls under the "which came first, the chicken or the egg" sort of thing.

That said, I imagine a big part of the reason Hudlin retconned Wakanda to be advanced all along was precisely to address the issue you're bringing up... it's giving some of the credit to the western world, at least indirectly. The upside of Hudlins retcon is that Wakanda got there on it's own and well before anyone else. And that overall makes more sense. The downside being it takes away arguably T'Challa's biggest feat... so it's a trade off.