Black Panther Appreciation 2019

[chief12d]

Here is another reason. You have Winston Duke. A incredibly talented actor and people want him to be Heimdall status. Really?

People quote the hell out of that intro scene from Duke.

The political discussion carried the hell out of the movie. Again I'm not saying the villain in the 2nd movie. Just we should see real debate and cracks in the friendship. It sets up for an epic conclusion in the 3rd film.

I agree with this. If the logic went that everyone who disagreed with T'Challa had to end up some sort of villain then he'd be at war with his entire supporting cast. For the most part, the success of the first film was adding layers to Wakanda and showing how T'Challa navigates the different beliefs. Okoye's a traditionalist, Nakia's a globalist, M'Baku's somewhere between religious fundamentalist and ultra traditionalist, and W'Kabi had no issue with Wakanda being imperialist. So I'm down for there being some confrontation between T'Challa and his friends, but it'd be a letdown if it had to result in a straight up fight.

And like others have said, T'Challa could use some male supporting cast, especially of the Wakandan variety. W'Kabi was a good secondary villain and while I don't really need to see him sacrifice himself, I don't think he should be T'Challa's best friend anymore. That should go to M'Baku. Yea there's the potential for him to go down the evil route given the five year gap, but T'Challa should have a brother-in-arms. Someone that stands beside him as a fellow chieftain and can challenge him but still be a solid ally. No one really offers that besides Okoye but not only is she less extreme and thus less of a contrast, she's limited by her position as leader of the Dora Milaje, the king's bodyguards.

[MindofShadow]

They can do a lot more with M'Baku now that he's an ally than the pretty generic villain he usually is depicted as. And it's not as if M'Baku and the Jabari pose any real threat to T'Challa who has better armour, weapons, numbers, and powers. The movie has the advantage of really thinking about how things can work and make sense in its own depiction of Wakanda and it doesn't have to adhere to comic book continuity.

M'Baku can still remain a traditionalist, but now the MCU can explore what he brings to the table as a member of the of T'Challa's council. Keep in mind that we never actually saw him complain about Wakanda aiding the rest of the world. He initially has problems with who is in charge of things, that being Shuri being in charge of the Wakanda Design Group and T'Challa being on the throne (because he failed to save T'Chaka), and he also feels T'Challa asking for the Jabari's help was opportunistic seeing that past members of the Royal family have ignored them.

Essentially the Jabari are the minority group with no political power or influence possibly because they worshipped a different god and refused rule from T'Challa's ancestors. Now they do have some power because their leader M'Baku has made it to the King's council. And considering M'Baku has led the Jabari to fight for the world on T'Challa's behalf three times, I fail to see why M'Baku would have a problem with Wakanda aiding the rest of the world. Yes, no one knows what he may have been thinking for those five years when T'Challa and Shuri were snapped, but keep in mind it's about two years between Black Panther and Infinity War and M'Baku still didn't hesitate to defend outsiders T'Challa brought in to Wakanda. In fact, who is to say the Jabari didn't want Wakanda to help Africa during the Transatlantic slave trade and centuries after that? The only people we see spouting nationalist and isolationist rhetoric are the Royal family and their allies (exceptions being Nakia and possibly Shuri), not the Jabari.

People forget the Jabari broke off waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay before Wakanda decided to wall itself off.

THe opening montage told us they broke off as soon as the warrior guided by Bast became king. They broke off because they wanted no part of being under a king/the black panther. They didn't want to unify.

Has absolutely nothing to do with outsiders whatsoever.

[Blind Wedjat]

Hypothetically speaking, you can argue that M'Baku might have a problem with T'Challa helping the Avengers because it led to Wakanda being invaded by Thanos. Yes, stopping Thanos benefitted everyone but honestly the smarter play probably would be to destroy the gem before Thanos got there rather than try and help Vision. T'Challa's friendship with the Avengers, from a purely objective perspective, endangered Wakanda and the world. Which wouldn't be so bad if not for the fact that they ended up failing. Course, it wouldn't make a difference once Thanos got the time gem... but no one would know that at the time.

POint being, it's easy enough to justify Coogler going in whatever direction he wants. THe Russos left Wakanda's situation relatively vague enough of a blank slate. We saw small bits and pieces of Wakanda, but not enough to really pigeon hole Coogler in any specific direction. Which is probably a good thing.

If M'Baku had a problem with T'Challa helping the Avengers, he would have refused to fight then, no? There are only two possible outcomes in a battle like that: they win or they lose. M'Baku is clearly a smart enough man to know this and he would have considered the possible outcomes. He was aware of the upcoming threat level (because the entire Wakandan army was needed). If he thought the battle was going to be bad for his people and/or Wakanda, would he not have refused to help them?

It's not as if we hadn't seen him faced with this kind of decision before Infinity War. He initially refused to fight Killmonger when T'Challa asked for his help, because he thought it would be bad for the Jabari. Yet he changed his mind, went to fight for T'Challa and Wakanda against Killmonger, did it again in Infinity War, and did it again in Endgame. There's nothing in those films you can actually use to justify a heel turn from M'Baku. Even after Infinity War, when he watched his people vanish before his eyes, he still helped T'Challa and the entire universe by bringing the Jabari to fight Thanos and his forces again.

So no, I don't see how you can hypothetically argue M'Baku might have had a problem with T'Challa helping the Avengers when there are multiple pieces of evidence that proves he didn't. M'Baku might be based on Man-Ape from the comics, but he is barely the same character (like most of the other supporting cast). For starters, he doesn't go by Man-Ape, doesn't wear a gorilla suit, didn't eat a white gorilla and isn't physically enhanced (which the "We are vegetarians" line is a clear reference to), is a lot smarter and less brutish, doesn't hate outsiders, is T'Challa's ally, and doesn't seem to have a problem with being ruled by T'Challa or have a king helping the rest of the world. Those last two things can change, but it wouldn't be because of anything we've seen happen in the MCU.

[Ezyo1000]

If Endgame (no pun intended) was for Steve to be with Peggy, then poor Sharon in the MCU was honestly just filler. In hindsight Sharon honestly wasn't needed at all. If Sharon played a bigger role than she did, it probably would have made the Peggy stuff look worse for everyone involved. If not for how funny the reaction we got from Bucky and Sam, I'd even say the kiss might not have been worth it.

But as far as Steve's support... between Black Widow, Winter Soldier, and Falcon I'd say he arguably has the best support group in the MCU. No one has more actual super heroes in their supporting cast than Steve does. And that's not even counting Maria Hill and Fury, who are probably closer associated with Steve than anyone apart from maybe Stark.

But with regard to BP, I think we're all in agreement that he doesn't NEED more superheroes in his movie. I don't think anyone has argued that he does. IF more are used, it's a simple matter of Coogler wanting to use them. As he said in an earlier quote, " Being a marvel fan, you want to grab all the characters." That's one of the upsides of having a shared universe ... that's an option if you want it to be.

Your missing my point. This isn't a debate about who has the best supporting cast, it is about who needed to add more to their cast (or heroes) and who doesn't. Cap needed it because his OG cast is dead/ too old to be in the sequel as he jumped to present day at the end of TFA. Thor needed it too because his cast got too bloated withe uninspired/useless cast members. BP DOESN'T need it because his cast is full and they are well developed and has reserves of supporting cast to use, and plenty of rogues to use still to where he doesn't need any out of franchise heroes or villains to populate his mythos, on top of that it would actually hurt his current cast rather then help it. His movie did gangbuster numbers all in house. No need to change it.

Yes Coogler did say that, however, it was better for the IP to keep it in house rather then use the shared universe because again, it's about knowing when it's appropriate to share, and when it's better to keep to the corner. BP has enough rich mythos to draw from to make multiple movies easily all centered in abd around Wakanda

[Blind Wedjat]

Here is another reason. You have Winston Duke. A incredibly talented actor and people want him to be Heimdall status. Really?

People quote the hell out of that intro scene from Duke.

The political discussion carried the hell out of the movie. Again I'm not saying the villain in the 2nd movie. Just we should see real debate and cracks in the friendship. It sets up for an epic conclusion in the 3rd film.

This is what happens when the MCU has set a poor standard for how supporting characters should be used. Lots of films have used supporting characters fully without them using a heel turn. It might be the easiest way to do it, but it isn't necessarily the best way, nor is it the only way.

I'd argue the BP film already shows this. M'Baku is a far more liked and memorable character than Heimdall, because good writing and good characterisation allowed him to stand out. People don't quote his lines because "OMG he's such a good villain here!" It's because they're well written, well delivered lines. And I'd argue his vegetarians joke, the "Are you done?" bit, and the "Witness the might of the Jabari first hand!" lines as well as the gorilla grunts made him an iconic ally and character, and these happened after he was shown to be a good guy. Heimdall has NEVER had any lines or moments that good, and he's forgotten because of that. Sure, maybe Heimdall doing a heel turn may have allowed Idris to flex his acting muscles, but the character wouldn't have had that much of an impact because nobody cared about Heimdall before that.

People care and like M'Baku as he is now. I think we're thinking too much about the comics and not realising that some of that stuff like M'Baku and Nakia becoming bad guys may actually have the opposite effect of what we think will happen. It's not as if a heel turn did anything for Daniel Kaluuya's performance anyway.

[DigiCom]

I think we're thinking too much about the comics

This.

After all, in the comics, Man-Ape is a joke. He's a guy running around in a gorilla suit who was so forgettable that when he came back from the dead, nobody noticed

Meanwhile, in the movies, M'Baku was so popular, he had a YouTube challenge that went viral, something no other MCU character has.

But folks still run with the idea that the MCU characters need to follow their comic-book arcs. Like somehow that's "better". But most of the people who saw the movie don't know or care who Man-Ape IS. Hell, most of them haven't even read the comic... at its over-inflated worst under Coates, the Panther book sold approximately 250,000 copies in its first month.

The Panther movie sold 8,290,500 tickets opening day, in just the US. That's roughly 33x as many people who saw the badass Jabari chieftain. And they paid at least twice as much for the privilege.

Tell me again why M'Baku needs to be a villain?

[Ezyo1000]

Here is another reason. You have Winston Duke. A incredibly talented actor and people want him to be Heimdall status. Really?

People quote the hell out of that intro scene from Duke.

The political discussion carried the hell out of the movie. Again I'm not saying the villain in the 2nd movie. Just we should see real debate and cracks in the friendship. It sets up for an epic conclusion in the 3rd film.

No one said anything about making him Heimdall status though? He isn't Heimdall status because he has done more then Heimdall in one movie then the entire trilogy of Thor. So where is this claim even coming from? Your wanting dysfunction in the friendship for...? Simply dysfunction? Because he is a villain in the comics? Honestly I find him much better development wise as an all then a villain. Turning him now would cheapen/destroy the arc done in the first movie (just like Erik being revived has that potential too)

I really don't see the benefit of this at all

[MindofShadow]

Plus T'challa already choked the life out of him lol.

Nothing to gain having him turn villain.

(UNLESS POSSESSED BY MEPHISTO!!!!!!! lololol)

speak mephisto into existence!

[XPac]

If M'Baku had a problem with T'Challa helping the Avengers, he would have refused to fight then, no? There are only two possible outcomes in a battle like that: they win or they lose. M'Baku is clearly a smart enough man to know this and he would have considered the possible outcomes. He was aware of the upcoming threat level (because the entire Wakandan army was needed). If he thought the battle was going to be bad for his people and/or Wakanda, would he not have refused to help them?

It's not as if we hadn't seen him faced with this kind of decision before Infinity War. He initially refused to fight Killmonger when T'Challa asked for his help, because he thought it would be bad for the Jabari. Yet he changed his mind, went to fight for T'Challa and Wakanda against Killmonger, did it again in Infinity War, and did it again in Endgame. There's nothing in those films you can actually use to justify a heel turn from M'Baku. Even after Infinity War, when he watched his people vanish before his eyes, he still helped T'Challa and the entire universe by bringing the Jabari to fight Thanos and his forces again.

So no, I don't see how you can hypothetically argue M'Baku might have had a problem with T'Challa helping the Avengers when there are multiple pieces of evidence that proves he didn't. M'Baku might be based on Man-Ape from the comics, but he is barely the same character (like most of the other supporting cast). For starters, he doesn't go by Man-Ape, doesn't wear a gorilla suit, didn't eat a white gorilla and isn't physically enhanced (which the "We are vegetarians" line is a clear reference to), is a lot smarter and less brutish, doesn't hate outsiders, is T'Challa's ally, and doesn't seem to have a problem with being ruled by T'Challa or have a king helping the rest of the world. Those last two things can change, but it wouldn't be because of anything we've seen happen in the MCU.

Refusing to fight would be stupid, because Thanos needed to be stopped. Whatever issues he may or may not have can be dealt with after Thanos is beat.

For the record Im not saying he does have a problem with Tchalla. There is no evidence of that. Merely saying if thats rhe direction Coogler goes, it can work. Tchalla choosing to help Vision rather than taking the gem and destroying it before Thanos gets there put Wakanda and the world in danger. He was thinking as a hero rather than as a king, and like in the comics that potentially won't necessarily sit well with everyone.

[XPac]

Your missing my point. This isn't a debate about who has the best supporting cast, it is about who needed to add more to their cast (or heroes) and who doesn't. Cap needed it because his OG cast is dead/ too old to be in the sequel as he jumped to present day at the end of TFA. Thor needed it too because his cast got too bloated withe uninspired/useless cast members. BP DOESN'T need it because his cast is full and they are well developed and has reserves of supporting cast to use, and plenty of rogues to use still to where he doesn't need any out of franchise heroes or villains to populate his mythos, on top of that it would actually hurt his current cast rather then help it. His movie did gangbuster numbers all in house. No need to change it.

Yes Coogler did say that, however, it was better for the IP to keep it in house rather then use the shared universe because again, it's about knowing when it's appropriate to share, and when it's better to keep to the corner. BP has enough rich mythos to draw from to make multiple movies easily all centered in abd around Wakanda

No, its not a debate about who needed it because NO ONE argued that the BP movie needs it. I've said like half a dozen times that the BP movie doesn't need outside heroes or villains, but for some reason we're still talking about it.

Again, its a simple matter of whether or not Coogler wants to play with the other toys in the sandbox. If he wants to, cool. If not, that's fine too.

[XPac]

This.

After all, in the comics, Man-Ape is a joke. He's a guy running around in a gorilla suit who was so forgettable that when he came back from the dead, nobody noticed

Meanwhile, in the movies, M'Baku was so popular, he had a YouTube challenge that went viral, something no other MCU character has.

But folks still run with the idea that the MCU characters need to follow their comic-book arcs. Like somehow that's "better". But most of the people who saw the movie don't know or care who Man-Ape IS. Hell, most of them haven't even read the comic... at its over-inflated worst under Coates, the Panther book sold approximately 250,000 copies in its first month.

The Panther movie sold 8,290,500 tickets opening day, in just the US. That's roughly 33x as many people who saw the badass Jabari chieftain. And they paid at least twice as much for the privilege.

Tell me again why M'Baku needs to be a villain?

I don't think anyone believes he needs to turn. Conversely, I don't think anyone should be surprised if he does. Or doesn't

[Ezyo1000]

No, its not a debate about who needed it because NO ONE argued that the BP movie needs it. I've said like half a dozen times that the BP movie doesn't need outside heroes or villains, but for some reason we're still talking about it.

Again, its a simple matter of whether or not Coogler wants to play with the other toys in the sandbox. If he wants to, cool. If not, that's fine too.

I don't think anyone believes he needs to turn. Conversely, I don't think anyone should be surprised if he does. Or doesn't

Do you just live in a different world then anyone else or just say whatever whenever from post to post without any regard to what you said previously, contradictory be damned?

[Dboi654]

Refusing to fight would be stupid, because Thanos needed to be stopped. Whatever issues he may or may not have can be dealt with after Thanos is beat.

For the record Im not saying he does have a problem with Tchalla. There is no evidence of that. Merely saying if thats rhe direction Coogler goes, it can work. Tchalla choosing to help Vision rather than taking the gem and destroying it before Thanos gets there put Wakanda and the world in danger. He was thinking as a hero rather than as a king, and like in the comics that potentially won't necessarily sit well with everyone.

Especially when whatever Thanos does also affects the White Gorilla tribe.

[Ezyo1000]

Especially when whatever Thanos does also affects the White Gorilla tribe.

Thing is in EG he didn't have to show up. At that point Thanos army was not invading Wakanda and as such he could of chosen not to fight. Sure you can Try the argument that he would have an issue after IW but put it aside for a greater threat at their doorstep, but EG they took the fight too Thanos and in that case he would have no reason to go if he didn't believe in T'Challa. They are allies in the MCU, M'Baku is better for it, he has gained more love and respect then he ever would had he stayed a villain. The sooner people accept this and embrace it, the better off M'Baku can be by continuing to grow as a character

[XPac]

Do you just live in a different world then anyone else or just say whatever whenever from post to post without any regard to what you said previously, contradictory be damned?

One posts says Coogler can use other characters if he feels like it, while the other says M'Baku doesn't need to turn heel but it wouldn't be surprising if he did.

Not sure what the contradiction is, since the 2 posts are talking about 2 entirely different subjects.