Black Panther Appreciation 2019

[XPac]

I should add that this doesn't necessarily have to make Achebe a Joker-esque villain. For starters I'd take away the constant ear-to-ear grin and the hand puppet. I'd make his personality a lot more similar to Cottonmouth from the Luke Cage show. A man with a menacing charm that can lose it from time to time (someone one HEF actually suggested Mahershala Ali as Achebe and I want that so bad now). You can paint him as a credible enough threat too if you can put him in a gunfight vs Nakia or someone who nearly kills an inexperienced Shuri.

I don't know if you want to take away the hand puppet. If the character blows up, that would look awefully cool on Walmart shelves. Just saying.

[Blind Wedjat]

I have no problem with any of that.

It would just have to be done extremely well to not come off as a cop out that T'challa doesn't just find and kill the dude.

I mean, shoot, he went into another sovereign country, put on a super suit, and tried to kill someone twice already in the MCU lol (bucky and klaue) despite all the government shennanigans involved.

He also housed a wanted man (Bucky) despite warning that if anyone found out, they would come for him... and T'challa didn't give an F.

Now, some of that can now change now that Wakanda is known to the world, and Coogler certainly has the talent to surprise me... but this is MUCH more difficult than the Joker imo.

Here's the thing. From what I remember in Priest's run, Achebe allegedly sold his sole to Mephisto to he wouldn't die and have his revenge on the guerrillas he had taken care of that stabbed him and stole his wife. Aside from that...Achebe never needed Mephisto for anything. The connection only seemed to keep his insanity in check, and T'Challa took care of that Mephisto thing by the fifth issue. And it's not as if Achebe wasn't a capable person since he killed a whole bunch of people, including soldiers, by himself (unless we somehow assume that Mephisto was keeping him from dying).

Achebe was able to do everything he did in Priest's run without Mephisto really. He was just a really smart man backed by shadow organisations and was very unhinged. T'Challa knew what Achebe had planned and he knew he was backed, so he played along to lure out his enemies. That's really what the story was, so it's not as if T'Challa couldn't just slit his throat open for fucking with him and his mother. He just didn't because he had to find the guys at the top too.

So what I'm asking for is exactly what the story was anyway, only that I'm suggesting Achebe is less cartoony and more capable mentally and physically (enough to challenge Nakia at the least) and that the whole story fits with what seems to be set up from the first movie (opening Wakanda to the world, possibly allowing refugees come in and the outreach programs in various countries, possibly having T'Challa free oppressed people around the world now not just to extract Nakia but to really help those in need etc).

[Cville]

White Wolfs niche can easily be filled by MCU M'baku. He's redundant. There is a reason Coogler closed the door on that scenario by giving Bucky the nickname instead.

Why in Bast's name is there Mandarin scans in here?

Achebe works. Zanderjack works. I'll also allow updated Supremacists, Moses, and if he wants to get weird with it, Mephisto.

Zandajack gives you a chance to showcase T'challa's senses and brain as well... I'm liking it.

Achebe, the mad scientist/alchemist could even be used to created Zandajack, Solomon Prey, and ARMLESS TIGER MAN. AKA how they got their powers.

The other tribes saw all the weird **** out there now... the super heroes, gods on earth, raging monsters, glove weilding purple thumbs, and started to explore ways to produce more powered beings, not just the Black Panther.

They are doubly panicked because the HSH is gone. If T'challa dies, they are screwed.

Enter... the rumored shaman in the forest... Achebe.

Also gives an avenue to potentially upgrade M'baku.

Mandarin scans were related to post for a Shang Chi movie villain

[DigiCom]

Honestly, while I love the Priest run to bits, I found Achebe quite tiresome after a while. He basically turned into a human meme:

"Biscuits! Puppies! LOL, I'm so random, Ukatana!"

If you are doing that, you might as well just use Deadpool.

I think the next movie needs two villains, minimum. One, someone that challenges T'Challa mentally (possibly politically?), and second someone he can punch. .

Regarding the former, while it may be for satisfying as a fan to see BP outmaneuver his foes from square one, dramatically it would help to instill some doubt in the movie audience.

As to whom these villains could be... I can think of several candidates FROM the comics, although I think it highly likely that they won't be much LIKE the comics. I also wouldn't count on them being viable after the movie is over. Loki is the only villain from an MCU flick who returned as a threat after being solidly defeated, and that has more to do with him having a fandom than any plan to "build his reputation" or anything like that.

Unlike in the comics, the MCU is about building HEROES, not villains.

[XPac]

Honestly, while I love the Priest run to bits, I found Achebe quite tiresome after a while. He basically turned into a human meme:

"Biscuits! Puppies! LOL, I'm so random, Ukatana!"

If you are doing that, you might as well just use Deadpool.

I think the next movie needs two villains, minimum. One, someone that challenges T'Challa mentally (possibly politically?), and second someone he can punch. .

Regarding the former, while it may be for satisfying as a fan to see BP outmaneuver his foes from square one, dramatically it would help to instill some doubt in the movie audience.

As to whom these villains could be... I can think of several candidates FROM the comics, although I think it highly likely that they won't be much LIKE the comics. I also wouldn't count on them being viable after the movie is over. Loki is the only villain from an MCU flick who returned as a threat after being solidly defeated, and that has more to do with him having a fandom than any plan to "build his reputation" or anything like that.

Unlike in the comics, the MCU is about building HEROES, not villains.

Loki is certainly more the exception than the rule, but I think you can arguably place Mordo in the category of building a villain. He obviously wasn't soundly defeated... he wasn't even actually a villain yet. But I think they are slowly building up the character.

And I still think Killmonger will fall into that category too, but we'll see.

Ultimately a big issue is that most of the MCU villains kinda suck. Compared to say a lot of the Net Flicks villains (who obviously get FAR more time to develop since they're on a TV show rather than a movie), they're largely not worth keeping around. But I think they're doing a better job of creating believable fleshed out villains, and I think we might start seeing a few make returns.

I CERTAINLY think that will be the case when marvel gets around to debuting Doom and Magneto. But we'll see.

[MindofShadow]

Here's the thing. From what I remember in Priest's run, Achebe allegedly sold his sole to Mephisto to he wouldn't die and have his revenge on the guerrillas he had taken care of that stabbed him and stole his wife. Aside from that...Achebe never needed Mephisto for anything. The connection only seemed to keep his insanity in check, and T'Challa took care of that Mephisto thing by the fifth issue. And it's not as if Achebe wasn't a capable person since he killed a whole bunch of people, including soldiers, by himself (unless we somehow assume that Mephisto was keeping him from dying).

Achebe was able to do everything he did in Priest's run without Mephisto really. He was just a really smart man backed by shadow organisations and was very unhinged. T'Challa knew what Achebe had planned and he knew he was backed, so he played along to lure out his enemies. That's really what the story was, so it's not as if T'Challa couldn't just slit his throat open for fucking with him and his mother. He just didn't because he had to find the guys at the top too.

So what I'm asking for is exactly what the story was anyway, only that I'm suggesting Achebe is less cartoony and more capable mentally and physically (enough to challenge Nakia at the least) and that the whole story fits with what seems to be set up from the first movie (opening Wakanda to the world, possibly allowing refugees come in and the outreach programs in various countries, possibly having T'Challa free oppressed people around the world now not just to extract Nakia but to really help those in need etc).

Seems really dense to have a villain backed by a secret organization of villains but neither being physical threats in one movie. Two movies I could see... once seems difficult.

Coogler a genius though so he can make it work. Just seems easier to have achebe be the only brains or have him backed by one more dangerous and powerful villain (mephisto) instead.

[Blind Wedjat]

Well I will say, T'chadwick said he is ready to start seeing 2 steps ahead Panther more going forward so I think having this game of each character trying to out prep, and out strategize each other would be alot of fun, Achebe shouldn't be the physical threat though I agree. He is better used as the mental challenge as you said while another is the physical threat. But at the same time the story should have real life issues and current events to go with it. I like that angle for BP rather then just a superhero slug fest, it is what makes his movies something that can be discussed in deeper tones way after the movie has come out and show up like it has in Universitys and the like

Exactly. And part of my idea with using Achebe and the shadow organisation is that they can be a reflection or metaphor of countries or unilateral organisations that may be helping developing countries in one way they think but are actually doing more harm than good (like trapping them in foreign debt when they provide foreign aid) and are opposed to real change that T'Challa is doing (actually going there, spreading knowledge and resources, freeing the oppressed) and so they hire Achebe to wreak havoc and destroy his plans.

I'm not against superhero slugfests in the slightest (and I'd save it for BP3 in my head which would be BP vs M'Baku) but I think for the sequel right now it'll work in the favour's franchise if it's scaled back a bit.

[XPac]

Exactly. And part of my idea with using Achebe and the shadow organisation is that they can be a reflection or metaphor of countries or unilateral organisations that may be helping developing countries in one way they think but are actually doing more harm than good (like trapping them in foreign debt when they provide foreign aid) and are opposed to real change that T'Challa is doing (actually going there, spreading knowledge and resources, freeing the oppressed) and so they hire Achebe to wreak havoc and destroy his plans.

I'm not against superhero slugfests in the slightest (and I'd save it for BP3 in my head which would be BP vs M'Baku) but I think for the sequel right now it'll work in the favour's franchise if it's scaled back a bit.

I actually think T'Challa vs M'Baku might be up next.

With T'Challa gone, I think M'Baku is the obvious person to take over Wakanda in his absence. Even Shuri and Ramonda thought of him before even considering Shuri herself. But if he's running things in Wakanda, he might not be entirely willing to just hand it back to T'Challa once he returns. If M'Baku has what he wants, he might not be willing to let it go just like that. I would GUESS he would want T'CHalla to fight for it.

But that's just a guess. We'll see

[Blind Wedjat]

Honestly, while I love the Priest run to bits, I found Achebe quite tiresome after a while. He basically turned into a human meme:

"Biscuits! Puppies! LOL, I'm so random, Ukatana!"

If you are doing that, you might as well just use Deadpool.

I think the next movie needs two villains, minimum. One, someone that challenges T'Challa mentally (possibly politically?), and second someone he can punch. .

Regarding the former, while it may be for satisfying as a fan to see BP outmaneuver his foes from square one, dramatically it would help to instill some doubt in the movie audience.

As to whom these villains could be... I can think of several candidates FROM the comics, although I think it highly likely that they won't be much LIKE the comics. I also wouldn't count on them being viable after the movie is over. Loki is the only villain from an MCU flick who returned as a threat after being solidly defeated, and that has more to do with him having a fandom than any plan to "build his reputation" or anything like that.

Unlike in the comics, the MCU is about building HEROES, not villains.

Well I did say I don't want Achebe to be completely loony. Give him personality and a tendency to be unhinged, yes. But he shouldn't be talking to a puppet. Hard to take him seriously while he does that.

As for the bolded, does T'Challa need to prove to the audience or his people that he can outpunch someone? From the jump he was going toe to toe with Cap and Bucky, beat M'Baku, beat Killmonger fair and square the second time they fought with a clear conscience, fought hordes of aliens (and the possible threats he may face in Endgame). I'd argue he has nothing to prove in that regard. Obviously I want action, which is why I suggested hired assassins being Death Tiger and Madame Slay (or anyone else), but in my opinion they shouldn't be main villains. Distractions and sub-bosses for T'Challa to make short work with while they are capable enough. I don't think at this point the dramatic struggle of "Will he beat him or not?" will have an impact just from what we've seen T'Challa do.

Seems really dense to have a villain backed by a secret organization of villains but neither being physical threats in one movie. Two movies I could see... once seems difficult.

Coogler a genius though so he can make it work. Just seems easier to have achebe be the only brains or have him backed by one more dangerous and powerful villain (mephisto) instead.

I'm not sure what you mean in the bolded, but I mean superhero movies have done this before. Civil War for instance comes to mind by using Zemo. While Iron Man is the final fight for Cap he (and Tony) lost to Zemo's schemes by succumbing to the need for vengeance and violence he wanted for them. The Winter Soldier also did this with Alexander Pierce. The film used Bucky as the physical threat which is more or less what I would want with the hired assassins but them being dealt with before the final battle.

[MindofShadow]

I'm not sure what you mean in the bolded, but I mean superhero movies have done this before. Civil War for instance comes to mind by using Zemo. While Iron Man is the final fight for Cap he (and Tony) lost to Zemo's schemes by succumbing to the need for vengeance and violence he wanted for them. The Winter Soldier also did this with Alexander Pierce. The film used Bucky as the physical threat which is more or less what I would want with the hired assassins but them being dealt with before the final battle.

Dorammamu > Kaeciullius

Zemo > Iron Man

Pierce > Bucky

Shadow Group > Achebe > Someone to Punch


That is what I mean. You have two degrees of separation from the "real big bad" with the example of Achebe being backed by a bigger threat rather than one degree of separation (like the other examples) from the real threat. If Achebe can't punch, there has to be someone else. It is an MCU movie, we have 20+ examples of their house style at this point. Every degree of separation takes that much more effort to build it to something real and not an asspull or being really thin.

[Blind Wedjat]

Dorammamu > Kaeciullius

Zemo > Iron Man

Pierce > Bucky

Shadow Group > Achebe > Someone to Punch


That is what I mean. You have two degrees of separation from the "real big bad" with the example of Achebe being backed by a bigger threat rather than one degree of separation (like the other examples) from the real threat. If Achebe can't punch, there has to be someone else. It is an MCU movie, we have 20+ examples of their house style at this point. Every degree of separation takes that much more effort to build it to something real and not an asspull or being really thin.

Oh now I get it. It could work but I see now how it can be harder to pull off on a narrative and storytelling level. Must be best then to have Achebe as the main villain who uses hired assassins.

But also I'm saying that the "someone to punch" role is reserved for multiple people. Which means that they won't have a lot of screentime or development, and few fight scenes can't just be about dealing with those guys. So you have assassins hired to kill or keep T'Challa occupied with Achebe works to end T'Challa's operations and possibly iinflitrate Wakanda to destabilise it.

I don't know. Not a scriptwriter lol

[Rumble]

Honestly, while I love the Priest run to bits, I found Achebe quite tiresome after a while. He basically turned into a human meme:

"Biscuits! Puppies! LOL, I'm so random, Ukatana!"

If you are doing that, you might as well just use Deadpool.

I think the next movie needs two villains, minimum. One, someone that challenges T'Challa mentally (possibly politically?), and second someone he can punch. .

Regarding the former, while it may be for satisfying as a fan to see BP outmaneuver his foes from square one, dramatically it would help to instill some doubt in the movie audience.

As to whom these villains could be... I can think of several candidates FROM the comics, although I think it highly likely that they won't be much LIKE the comics. I also wouldn't count on them being viable after the movie is over. Loki is the only villain from an MCU flick who returned as a threat after being solidly defeated, and that has more to do with him having a fandom than any plan to "build his reputation" or anything like that.

Unlike in the comics, the MCU is about building HEROES, not villains.

I agree that it should (and will) be 2 minimum.

To take it a step further, two things that are going to happen in BP 2, without question:
1. Someone (male) for T'Challa to punch
2. Someone (female) for Nakia/Okoye to punch

Point #2 is also why Zandajack is a gold mine. Females want in on the fun and had damn near half of he box office receipts.

That said, all though I personally would prefer revamped Baron Macabre and Zandajack as the villains, I think what we're going to get are revamped versions of Achebe, Tetu, Zenzi.

Achebe as the deranged intellectual/master manipulator. Tetu and Zenzi as his super powered lackeys with their own motivations/back stories/instability. Similar to Zandajack, Zenzi's overall look and powerset are "cinematic". Tetu has a powerset for a big summer blockbuster.

Baron Macabre and Zandajack also have the "look" and powerset for the cinematic. From a business standpoint, it's just sensible that their going to have an intellectual, a brute, and a female villain.

[DigiCom]

As for the bolded, does T'Challa need to prove to the audience or his people that he can outpunch someone?

Nah, but moviegoers LOVE their third act slugfests.

[Cville]

We got an idea going on the HEF that the final confrontation should be a mental challenge like a board game on something.

[Ezyo1000]

Exactly. And part of my idea with using Achebe and the shadow organisation is that they can be a reflection or metaphor of countries or unilateral organisations that may be helping developing countries in one way they think but are actually doing more harm than good (like trapping them in foreign debt when they provide foreign aid) and are opposed to real change that T'Challa is doing (actually going there, spreading knowledge and resources, freeing the oppressed) and so they hire Achebe to wreak havoc and destroy his plans.

I'm not against superhero slugfests in the slightest (and I'd save it for BP3 in my head which would be BP vs M'Baku) but I think for the sequel right now it'll work in the favour's franchise if it's scaled back a bit.

I agree, slugfests are fun but honestly I think, like the first movie, having less but more important and meaningful set pieces make you appreciate them more given the care put into them. I dunno if BP vs M'Baku is what I want to see though to be honest, I like where M'Baku is at, especially with W'kabi no longer ballin with T'Challa, he needs homies. Plus I really don't want to see another civil waresque plot again. Wakanda should stabilize. Iwe should see a fully powered Wakanda in all it's greatness SWaD Wakanda