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  1. #8896
    Be Seeing You… DigiCom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Don't forget Priest did not want to do the book and did not CARE for Panther. He was slated to do a Falcon book (thus that ending we saw in Cap America & Falcon).
    If that is what he does with something he hates-I would be scared to see what he does with something her loves.
    https://www.dccomics.com/comics?type...=398886#browse

    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    I will never understand why people keep acting like Priest's reluctance to write Black Panther is a bad thing.

    As he's said before, he was tired of being the 'Black writer', with his employers assuming that he could/should only write black characters. A black man tired of being pigeon holed? Madness!

    And his reluctance was a great aid in his writing. A good writer is the character's worst enemy, and Priest was a great writer. He developed a long neglected character into a convincing bad ass, standing shoulder to shoulder with Dr. Doom, Namor and Magneto among others. Priest was objective with T'Challa, and that's what allowed him to develop the mythos that he did, a mythos that still stands.
    Now it's my turn to drop some truth.

    Who was the first African-American editor at BOTH Marvel & DC?

    Who was the editor of Spider-Man for some of his best runs?

    Who hired Peter David?

    Who gave Joe Quesada one of his first jobs in the Big Two?

    Who was one of only two writers considered good enough to do a fill-in during the Simonson THOR run?

    And who had TWENTY YEARS in the industry before he even touched Black Panther?

    Christopher Priest was a comics writer before most of his fans (myself included) were out of primary school. He experienced overt (and covert) racism and stuck to his guns. When given a character who was, frankly, C-list at best in the '90s, did he phone it in?

    No. He did the best job that he possibly could, inventing new villains and ideas to flesh out the character, making him one of the coolest and smartest heroes in the Marvel U.

    And what did he get for it? Where once he wrote Green Lantern & Unknown Soldier, now he was a "black writer" who only was assigned African-American characters.

    One of the things that finally broke the camel's back? Like the esteemed Mr. Coates, he was actually given the main Captain America title, which he decided would be a team-up with Falcon. ... but when a "hot" artist wanted to do a Cap book, he was sidelined... but he was told he could keep Falcon.

    Because, after decades in the business, he was a "black writer".

    Did he not want to do Black Panther? Damn right he didn't. No professional writer wants to be given a character that won't sell. But he MADE the character worth buying. If it wasn't for Priest, there would be no Hudlin. No SWAD. No $3 billion dollar movies. And (I'm pretty sure) nobody in a Black Panther Appreciation thread.

    So show a little gratitude. Priest is the reason why we're all here.
    Last edited by DigiCom; 10-22-2019 at 07:33 PM.

  2. #8897
    Extraordinary Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    Frankly, I never found Hudlin's Panther to be bad ass. He was fond of tell, not show. And while yes he gave us Shuri, he also barely developed her at all.

    Hudlin's work, IMO, was like Bendis. He fawns over the character he likes, and thus puts no meaningful obstacles in their face, and gives us no real development.
    ??? Dude he put hands on Cap, Tony, Karnak, , liberated a planet, out hands on doom, the x men.. Hudlin was not a tell not show. And he did develop Shuri, that's what vol 5 was

    He had plenty of development. The whole SWaD lead up came from witbp. Dude is not like bendis. I think your confusing Hudlin with Coates
    Last edited by Ezyo1000; 10-22-2019 at 08:10 PM.

  3. #8898
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    Frankly, I never found Hudlin's Panther to be bad ass. He was fond of tell, not show. And while yes he gave us Shuri, he also barely developed her at all.

    Hudlin's work, IMO, was like Bendis. He fawns over the character he likes, and thus puts no meaningful obstacles in their face, and gives us no real development.
    His treatment of Shuri was sort of weird to me. He created the character, but barely touched her until his very very last arc. And while he did a pretty darn amazing job with her in his last arc, it's perplexing that he did next to nothing with her up to that point. He SHOULD have been building her up all along. It all worked out in the end of course... he made SURE Shuri was going to be used on his way out. But in the least I'd say his handling of her was very very very uneven.

  4. #8899
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    ??? Dude he put hands on Cap, Tony, Karnak, , liberated a planet, out hands on doom, the x men.. Hudlin was not a tell not show. And he did develop Shuri, that's what vol 5 was

    He had plenty of development. The whole SWaD lead up came from witbp. Dude is not like bendis. I think your confusing Hudlin with Coates
    All of those, minus the Mob Planet, were largely skirmishes that didn't see a definitive conclusion (or like his fight with Iron Man, he used someone else's weapon).

    T'Challa's two major fights, under Hudlin's pen, were Killmonger and Doom. Those fights went down to the mat. How'd those go for him?

    His first arc, IMO, sets the tone for his run. He talks a big game (one of the Council members boasts about how their intelligence services are equal to the Israelis), yet his execution was lacking, at best (Wakanda nearly being destroyed by his lame Sinister Six, missing an army at the border and an army of cyborgs on his doorstep)

  5. #8900
    Amazing Member RDMXV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    "Remember several years back when Coates introduced contrived rape, gender inequality, a woman telling two other women who were rape victims that they should of accepted their fate and died so the golden city could stand (whatever that means), and every other offense stereotype Coates could sling? "

    "How about that S2 when he reveals that Wakanda is basically a Columbus analogy? And Wakanda is so in capable that it needs the Orishas ™ to save them and that was actually where their success came from and not from their own ingenuity, and if they pray hard enough, they can turn people into gods and let them save their country!"

    "How about that S3, where it's supposedly an allegory for the middle passage (which doesn't make sense) but makes future Wakanda into colonizers, and Wakanda actually thrives and has seen more peace and prosperity they it has in years... When T'Challa is gone, and the magical Orishas ™ (who you to this point we still know nothing about) have returned?"

    Yeah time isn't going to make it more appreciated because there has been nothing added from his story to appreciate. He has no momentum. He fumbled out the gate. Priest, Hudlin, and narcisse fall in line with that appreciation over time. Why? Because their runs are actually good and elevate the character using in continuity charactistics
    The thing about art is it doesn't resonate the same with everyone.

    Bad guys kidnapping women in wakanda and then getting beat up sounds like regular comic action. It's weird how women being the target of crime specifically gets under y'all skin in that way but if they were stealing some random important objects instead of humans with the same exact context it would have never been mentioned again. I don't get it truly. The silent panel throwing a guy out the window during that scene was cool as hell to me. Even then it was so inconsequential relatively speaking again yall clinging to that moment is just weird man really weird tbh.

    S2 A columbus analogy? I mean lol I guess. If anything it was just not action packed enough and spread itself to thin. If wakandans pray or wakandan ancestors had to ban together to beat a common enemy to become the unified nation they are now...so? lol I don't see how that's damaging in the least bit. I think a nation inherently is going to wrong someone or something along the way. It's kind of childish to want this squeaky clean behemoth. Where's the internal conflict in that?

    S3 T'Challa established that peace successfully and then was like glad that's over so I can now go through a black hole in space because that's who he is. It's connected to the middle passage because the erasing of memories are similar to how slaves were stripped of their culture. Coates plays with memories and history alot and harps on how they are important. It's actually one of his positives that what has happened actually impacts T'challa's disposition. Some call him mopey T'Challa but again INTERNAL CONFLICT
    Last edited by RDMXV; 10-23-2019 at 04:32 AM.

  6. #8901
    Original CBR member Jabare's Avatar
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    The J-man

    I post via my phone a lot, therefore I make the occasional grammatical error. Not an excuse just forewarning you. Feel free to call me out I won't mind.

  7. #8902
    Astonishing Member Cville's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RDMXV View Post
    The thing about art is it doesn't resonate the same with everyone.

    Bad guys kidnapping women in wakanda and then getting beat up sounds like regular comic action. It's weird how women being the target of crime specifically gets under y'all skin in that way but if they were stealing some random important objects instead of humans with the same exact context it would have never been mentioned again. I don't get it truly. The silent panel throwing a guy out the window during that scene was cool as hell to me. Even then it was so inconsequential relatively speaking again yall clinging to that moment is just weird man really weird tbh.

    S2 A columbus analogy? I mean lol I guess. If anything it was just not action packed enough and spread itself to thin. If wakandans pray or wakandan ancestors had to ban together to beat a common enemy to become the unified nation they are now...so? lol I don't see how that's damaging in the least bit. I think a nation inherently is going to wrong someone or something along the way. It's kind of childish to want this squeaky clean behemoth. Where's the internal conflict in that?

    S3 T'Challa established that peace successfully and then was like glad that's over so I can now go through a black hole in space because that's who he is. It's connected to the middle passage because the erasing of memories are similar to how slaves were stripped of their culture. Coates plays with memories and history alot and harps on how they are important. It's actually one of his positives that what has happened actually impacts T'challa's disposition. Some call him mopey T'Challa but again INTERNAL CONFLICT
    So you equate kidnapping and raping women equivalent to stealing technology? I guess that makes sense if you only view women as objects.

    The analogy is more obvious when you realize the issue came out in November and the originators are dressed as colonial Native Americans were depicted. And the only reason they fought is because they were acting like "humans" no real explanation given.

    How has it positively impacted his disposition?
    Last edited by Cville; 10-23-2019 at 04:56 AM.

  8. #8903
    Astonishing Member Cville's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    All of those, minus the Mob Planet, were largely skirmishes that didn't see a definitive conclusion (or like his fight with Iron Man, he used someone else's weapon).

    T'Challa's two major fights, under Hudlin's pen, were Killmonger and Doom. Those fights went down to the mat. How'd those go for him?

    His first arc, IMO, sets the tone for his run. He talks a big game (one of the Council members boasts about how their intelligence services are equal to the Israelis), yet his execution was lacking, at best (Wakanda nearly being destroyed by his lame Sinister Six, missing an army at the border and an army of cyborgs on his doorstep)
    He put hands on them. That was the conclusion. Lol. A weapon he took from that someone else.

    The normal Sinister Six aren't A class villians either. It's a collection of C listers with Octavius only getting upvoted in the last decade.

    The army came in following Rhino and got wiped out without much fuss. Wakanda seems to let people come it so they can kill you. By letting them in Tchalla could go into Niganda at beat up its leader.

    The Deathlok army came in under water Pirates of the Caribbean style and were sent home from one threat from BP.
    Last edited by Cville; 10-23-2019 at 05:17 AM.

  9. #8904
    Extraordinary Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    All of those, minus the Mob Planet, were largely skirmishes that didn't see a definitive conclusion (or like his fight with Iron Man, he used someone else's weapon).

    T'Challa's two major fights, under Hudlin's pen, were Killmonger and Doom. Those fights went down to the mat. How'd those go for him?

    His first arc, IMO, sets the tone for his run. He talks a big game (one of the Council members boasts about how their intelligence services are equal to the Israelis), yet his execution was lacking, at best (Wakanda nearly being destroyed by his lame Sinister Six, missing an army at the border and an army of cyborgs on his doorstep)
    Nearly destroyed? Did we read the same book? Klaw and his cabal got utterly destroyed. There wasn't a nearly being destroyed. Karnak was one shot. The fight with Cap ended with T'Challas foot on his head, and Tony was out of the fight.

    Against killmonger he wasn't trying to best him, he was buying time. And doom I'll admit that wasn't the best ending but at the same time Hudlin was building to a massive beat down to Doom that would of made the hero
    community nervous which would of led to a Wakanda centric event. And with the cyborgs? There were so many different pieces going to the first arc it's ridiculous that you think it was handled poorly given what we know transpired

  10. #8905
    Extraordinary Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RDMXV View Post
    The thing about art is it doesn't resonate the same with everyone.

    Bad guys kidnapping women in wakanda and then getting beat up sounds like regular comic action. It's weird how women being the target of crime specifically gets under y'all skin in that way but if they were stealing some random important objects instead of humans with the same exact context it would have never been mentioned again. I don't get it truly. The silent panel throwing a guy out the window during that scene was cool as hell to me. Even then it was so inconsequential relatively speaking again yall clinging to that moment is just weird man really weird tbh.

    S2 A columbus analogy? I mean lol I guess. If anything it was just not action packed enough and spread itself to thin. If wakandans pray or wakandan ancestors had to ban together to beat a common enemy to become the unified nation they are now...so? lol I don't see how that's damaging in the least bit. I think a nation inherently is going to wrong someone or something along the way. It's kind of childish to want this squeaky clean behemoth. Where's the internal conflict in that?

    S3 T'Challa established that peace successfully and then was like glad that's over so I can now go through a black hole in space because that's who he is. It's connected to the middle passage because the erasing of memories are similar to how slaves were stripped of their culture. Coates plays with memories and history alot and harps on how they are important. It's actually one of his positives that what has happened actually impacts T'challa's disposition. Some call him mopey T'Challa but again INTERNAL CONFLICT
    S1. The issue is that it's Wakandans kidnapping and raping Wakandan women and girls. You expect me to believe that where Hickman left off and the start of Coates rub Wakanda descended so far that they just start raping their women and all of a sudden have these gender inequalities? They had frakking rape treehouses. You don't get more offensive than that. And those were big treehouses, and I am to believe the government didn't notice that? Come on.

    S2. Yes a colombus analogy. The Wakandans came to the originator's land (the native Americans) and drove them out... In chains. They took their land and banished then to a different dimension (reservation). We already knew that in Wakandan history was all sunshine and rainbows bashenga United them after there was fighting among the tribes. And tell me, what did this internal conflict actually contribute to the story?

    S3. No... He didn't. It says on panel that Wakanda is experiencing the more peace and prosperity it has seen in a long time.
    This all happened when T'Challa was in space, in fact it's made clear that T'Challa was again back to his Mopey ways and left to go to space to get away from his duties. And middle passage isn't the stripping of culture. It's the route that was taken to transport the slaves.

    And he doesn't do a good job of playing with memories or history at all. He mentions it in passing and then moves on. We are how many issues in to S3 and we still no nothing about how he got to where he is now.

    And finally yeah he is mopey. It's not internal conflict because all that conflict was resolved by the end of S2
    His sister was alive, he was back with Storm, his mother was recovering, the DM were with him again, and Wakanda wasn't under attack... Yet here he is moping

  11. #8906
    Resident of The Djalia Blind Wedjat's Avatar
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    So the image of African men kidnapping and raping African women while an African leader doesn't do anything about it shouldn't get under our skin?

    So one of the few examples of anti-colonialism in Africa in media being changed to a bunch of colonisers themselves (of people who look like Native Americans) shouldn't get under our skin?

    So one of the most prolific characters of all black pride and power being reduced to a slave shouldn't get under our skin?

    I'm confused.

  12. #8907
    Astonishing Member Overhazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blind Wedjat View Post
    So the image of African men kidnapping and raping African women while an African leader doesn't do anything about it shouldn't get under our skin?

    So one of the few examples of anti-colonialism in Africa in media being changed to a bunch of colonisers themselves (of people who look like Native Americans) shouldn't get under our skin?

    So one of the most prolific characters of all black pride and power being reduced to a slave shouldn't get under our skin?

    I'm confused.
    I just remember Coates saying that he wanted his BP to be some kid's Spider-Man. What 10 year old wants to read about rape camps?

  13. #8908
    Astonishing Member Cville's Avatar
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    Year of the Villain Black Adam did something similar to the end of the second arc in one issue, using prayer to beat the villain. Does anybody read it. I felt like it was done better than BP, but I don't understand how Adams county/religion works.

  14. #8909
    Be Seeing You… DigiCom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cville View Post
    Year of the Villain Black Adam did something similar to the end of the second arc in one issue, using prayer to beat the villain. Does anybody read it. I felt like it was done better than BP, but I don't understand how Adams county/religion works.
    I didn't read it, but if memory serves, Kahndaq is basically Egypt, and hence primarily a Muslim nation(although a fairly liberal one), but Adam himself is Egyptian. Given that he's empowered by several gods (originally, Egyptian ones, but now I think he uses the same set as Billy & co.) using prayer does make a certain amount of sense.

    Unlike Marvel, where gods tend to be treated as Just Another Super-Powered Race, the DC pantheons tend to be more mystically depicted. Even when writers have tried to make them more "realistic" (almost always in WW stories) they rarely get defeated through purely physical means.

    Frankly, I prefer this approach. Gods you can actually punch just don't feel right. And Marvel has treated the Egyptians (including Bast) particularly badly.

  15. #8910
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beware Of Geek View Post
    I didn't read it, but if memory serves, Kahndaq is basically Egypt, and hence primarily a Muslim nation(although a fairly liberal one), but Adam himself is Egyptian. Given that he's empowered by several gods (originally, Egyptian ones, but now I think he uses the same set as Billy & co.) using prayer does make a certain amount of sense.

    Unlike Marvel, where gods tend to be treated as Just Another Super-Powered Race, the DC pantheons tend to be more mystically depicted. Even when writers have tried to make them more "realistic" (almost always in WW stories) they rarely get defeated through purely physical means.

    Frankly, I prefer this approach. Gods you can actually punch just don't feel right. And Marvel has treated the Egyptians (including Bast) particularly badly.
    Could you define what you mean by "realistic" in regards to the gods?

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