Black Panther Appreciation 2019

[Mr MajestiK]

When I say “we” it’s more of an acknowledgement that WE as a culture are not ready to acknowledge the greatness of the black female form. With all due respect, this post of yours goes a long way to reinforcing my beliefs. I’m not sure how the sudden emergence of Shuri’s genius level intellect would somehow suggest that that aspect of T’Challa’s essence was stripped away? How did you come to that conclusion? I certainly didn’t. The king I saw was more than capable of keeping up with his little sister in the science lab. Why does Shuri’s new station appear to infringe upon T’Challa’s in your opinion? I’m not saying that we couldn’t use more emphasis on his brand of genius level intellectual flexing, but I’m also not going to say that it was completely absent from the movie.

I need to bring the focus back to Nakia for a bit. In order to fully accept and acknowledge her place of importance in MCU Wakanda, it’s vital that we highlight that HERS is the only viewpoint that allowed for T’Challa is take the moral high ground away from Erik Killmonger. Only through Nakia’s guidance, his reverence for her and the wisdom to open his heart and follow her are we then able to truly see his genius at play. Nakia and Killmonger both have the same plan, but Erik’s is a twisted version designed to bring out the ugly side of Wakanda. Nakia’s plan is to highlight Wakanda’s beauty.

MCU T’Challa speaks to me because his sense of community informs his actions. He’s a man that wants to see the best in the people around him, but his brain won’t allow him to ignore that ugliness that comes along with human nature. We literally see the boy in him die as he loses that child like reverence for his father. He becomes a man as he sees his father as a deeply flawed man that’s worked his whole life trying to be a good king.

Ultimately, I believe MCU T’Challa has no peer because of the way that he champions his community. I honestly believe that was Coogler’s critique on black people as a whole, he just didn’t hit us over the head with it. The women are important because they hold up every aspect of society. First we have Bast, the great goddess and the most divine female form and clear proof the god is a black woman. Okoye and the Dora’s are the warrior essence and the teeth of Wakanda. Shuri was Wakanda’s innovative spiritual essence. And Nakia represents the warmth, the heart and the nurturing side of Wakanda. T’Challa the imperfect man and impeccable king is made richer for the wealth of women in his life and the sense of community he possesses. He’s not worried about flexing on fools and “one-upping a *****”,. Neither is he bent on seeing a man that looks like him and being overcome with a powerful urge to kill this reflection of himself before it does the same to him. He’s not on his American hip hop **** that glorifies moving outta the hood (and away from the community) only to move into neighborhoods that have been redlined specifically to keep them out. He also isn’t the type of black man that blindly turns twists himself into a pretzel to over the idea of appearing masculine. It all just radiates off him because he’s being himself, he isn’t being this idea of what society says he should be. To me he represents all for one and one for all. MCU T’Challa is all about building up his community in Wakanda and the disenfranchised across America. He still had the presence of mind to honor his cousin by giving back to HIS community.

That last part is especially poignant with MU T’Challa with the way me made Wakanda a beacon and safe haven for black heroes all over the MU. I may not be the best judge of character, but I’m pretty sure the white majority that Coates supposedly caters to would be hard pressed to highlight these aspects of Damisa-Sarki.

And when I question the "we" you reference, I do so in the full knowledge that I and many of my peers both on and offline, have always revered the Black women in our lives long before it became faux fashionable to do so.

Comic book Shuri was never portrayed as a genius level intellect on par with her brother even though she was a Physicist in her own right so there were ZERO reason for Coogler to have stopped T'Challa of one of his primary character traits and splice same onto his sister in the movie.

The question I clearly posed in my original post was why T'Challa is the only MU character to have lost this particular genius level distinction in his MCU translation, when this has not been the case where the likes of Stark, Banner and even Hank Pym as portrayed within the MCU is concerned.

It's a posed question that still remains unanswered by anyone currently posting in this thread which in itself, is quite revealing.

I remain nonplussed as to what point you're attempting to make in relation to T'Challa's interpersonal relationships with the women that have been featured in the BP mythos long before Coates arrived in the scene with his Rape Camps, misogynistic mischaracterising of Wakandan society and overarching Boko Haram type denigration of the BP mythos?

And I say this for the simple fact, that women were always integral to the BP mythos and portrayed as equal to their male counterparts right from day one in tales, storylines and depictions where known one was thrown under the proverbial bus on some wholly manufactured gender imbalance/conflict that was non-existent prior to Coates ongoing derailment of the BP mythos.

Most posters familiar with me in this thread no that there is no greater appreciator of Shuri in here than me but here's the thing, I appreciated Shuri for who she was as written by Hudlin, Maberry, (initially) Liss and Hickman when she was clearly portrayed as being fiercely loyal to Wakanda in an uncompromising manner that wasn't even embodied by her own brother post Hudlin.

T'Challa's masculinity is not in question here as regards his general portrayal in the MU/MCU, it's his depiction as a completely lacklustre background character in his current solo book that remains irksome.

And as regards the portrayal of the eponymous King in the BP movie when compared to his initial introduction to the MCU via Captain America: Civil War, I'm going to boldly state that apart from the beginning of the BP movie wherein I personally felt T'Challa was portrayed very well, the rest was pure milquetoast moreso for the fact, that I found every other supporting cast member than the main character, a lot more compelling and relevant to the overall movie.

I've never felt that way about any other comicbook character portrayed in movies other than Blade when he was put all back of the bus behind Ryan Reynolds character and the Nightstalkers in the Blade:Trinity movie.

[Cville]

When I say “we” it’s more of an acknowledgement that WE as a culture are not ready to acknowledge the greatness of the black female form. With all due respect, this post of yours goes a long way to reinforcing my beliefs. I’m not sure how the sudden emergence of Shuri’s genius level intellect would somehow suggest that that aspect of T’Challa’s essence was stripped away? How did you come to that conclusion? I certainly didn’t. The king I saw was more than capable of keeping up with his little sister in the science lab. Why does Shuri’s new station appear to infringe upon T’Challa’s in your opinion? I’m not saying that we couldn’t use more emphasis on his brand of genius level intellectual flexing, but I’m also not going to say that it was completely absent from the movie.

I need to bring the focus back to Nakia for a bit. In order to fully accept and acknowledge her place of importance in MCU Wakanda, it’s vital that we highlight that HERS is the only viewpoint that allowed for T’Challa is take the moral high ground away from Erik Killmonger. Only through Nakia’s guidance, his reverence for her and the wisdom to open his heart and follow her are we then able to truly see his genius at play. Nakia and Killmonger both have the same plan, but Erik’s is a twisted version designed to bring out the ugly side of Wakanda. Nakia’s plan is to highlight Wakanda’s beauty.

MCU T’Challa speaks to me because his sense of community informs his actions. He’s a man that wants to see the best in the people around him, but his brain won’t allow him to ignore that ugliness that comes along with human nature. We literally see the boy in him die as he loses that child like reverence for his father. He becomes a man as he sees his father as a deeply flawed man that’s worked his whole life trying to be a good king.

Ultimately, I believe MCU T’Challa has no peer because of the way that he champions his community. I honestly believe that was Coogler’s critique on black people as a whole, he just didn’t hit us over the head with it. The women are important because they hold up every aspect of society. First we have Bast, the great goddess and the most divine female form and clear proof the god is a black woman. Okoye and the Dora’s are the warrior essence and the teeth of Wakanda. Shuri was Wakanda’s innovative spiritual essence. And Nakia represents the warmth, the heart and the nurturing side of Wakanda. T’Challa the imperfect man and impeccable king is made richer for the wealth of women in his life and the sense of community he possesses. He’s not worried about flexing on fools and “one-upping a *****”,. Neither is he bent on seeing a man that looks like him and being overcome with a powerful urge to kill this reflection of himself before it does the same to him. He’s not on his American hip hop **** that glorifies moving outta the hood (and away from the community) only to move into neighborhoods that have been redlined specifically to keep them out. He also isn’t the type of black man that blindly turns twists himself into a pretzel to over the idea of appearing masculine. It all just radiates off him because he’s being himself, he isn’t being this idea of what society says he should be. To me he represents all for one and one for all. MCU T’Challa is all about building up his community in Wakanda and the disenfranchised across America. He still had the presence of mind to honor his cousin by giving back to HIS community.

That last part is especially poignant with MU T’Challa with the way me made Wakanda a beacon and safe haven for black heroes all over the MU. I may not be the best judge of character, but I’m pretty sure the white majority that Coates supposedly caters to would be hard pressed to highlight these aspects of Damisa-Sarki.

Bast is an "it" not a she.

Why did you build up the women, but call Tchalla the imperfect man. As if the women had no flaws

[Mr MajestiK]

I think this is where I disagree with some on here about T'Challa in Civil War.

Maybe I haven't said this before, but the way Markus and McFeely changed the circumstances of T'Chaka's death ultimately changed T'Challa as a character moving forward. T'Challa in the comics is like Bruce Wayne in the sense that tragedy striking in their childhood ultimately robbed them of having a complete one. In Wayne's case, he starts getting groomed to take over the family empire and then travels the world in order to learn how to fight crime. In T'Challa's case he is immediately groomed for the crown and then travels the world (or to the West) to learn about the outside world. This sudden thrust of responsibility is what I think led to the cold personality both men sometimes have.

By changing T'Chaka's death as an event that occurs when T'Challa is a man, it allows him to deal with this trauma a lot better than as child. He had his childhood, and when he was no longer a child, he was a already ready to be king and was the Black Panther. This may make T'Challa more mentally stable, but also takes away the guarded nature, the slight paranoia, and the shrewdness the character is often associated with.

But really, I don't think the MCU prepared for his arrival properly. Keep in mind that the dismemberment of Klaue was taken away from T'Challa and given to Ultron, and the assassination of T'Chaka was given to Zemo, not Klaue. These are key events in T'Challa's history that play out completely differently.

To get back to why I don't think Civil War did T'Challa justice though, I said that killing T'Chaka while T'Challa is an adult makes him more stable. It should have also made him a lot more methodical and logical. Instead the film portrays him as irrational and antagonistic. We know Bucky didn't do it. Everybody knows he didn't do it, except T'Challa. He simply takes what the news told him at face value without ever investigating, and he seemingly has no real plan other than clawing Bucky in the face. His on intelligence network can't find Bucky and needs Black Widow's help. He's never once shown to be an intelligent man (and there were several opportunities to show this) but rather a capable fighter. Almost throughout the entire film T'Challa is wrong. He's supposed to be right when everyone else thinks he's wrong.

In his ruthlessness, he never gets anything done. He has three opportunities to take out his target but doesn't. Moreover, he let Zemo live. Now I understand that one of the themes of the film was that revenge makes you less human, but come on. Zemo killed T'Chaka pretty much for no reason other than to get the Avengers to fight each other. He was essentially collateral damage and Zemo admitted this to T'Challa's face and he let him live. I'm sorry, but that's bullshit.

Now I don't hate this characterisation. But I seriously wonder why so many have a problem with T'Challa in his solo when he was the exact same character at the end of Civil War. He should have been the one guy that saw the Avengers where being played when they were too busy being caught up in their emotions. That's T'Challa, not the revenge obsessed and irrational version we got.

The solo movie actually showed that he can be a lot more methodical and logical.

I more or less disagree but respect your opinion nonetheless.

The BP solo could have been a lot more than it was but in the end, I found myself rooting moreso for everyone else other than T'Challa.

[Mr MajestiK]

Bast is an "it" not a she.

Why did you build up the women, but call Tchalla the imperfect man. As if the women had no flaws

I'm glad someone else noted this.

I was beginning to think that I was imagining things.

[Cville]

And when I question the "we" you reference, I do so in the full knowledge that I and many of my peers both on and offline, have always revered the Black women in our lives long before it became faux fashionable to do so.

Comic book Shuri was never portrayed as a genius level intellect on par with her brother even though she was a Physicist in her own right so there were ZERO reason for Coogler to have stopped T'Challa of one of his primary character traits and splice same onto his sister in the movie.

The question I clearly posed in my original post was why T'Challa is the only MU character to have lost this particular genius level distinction in his MCU translation, when this has not been the case where the likes of Stark, Banner and even Hank Pym as portrayed within the MCU is concerned.

It's a posed question that still remains unanswered by anyone currently posting in this thread which in itself, is quite revealing.

I remain nonplussed as to what point you're attempting to make in relation to T'Challa's interpersonal relationships with the women that have been featured in the BP mythos long before Coates arrived in the scene with his Rape Camps, misogynistic mischaracterising of Wakandan society and overarching Boko Haram type denigration of the BP mythos?

And I say this for the simple fact, that women were always integral to the BP mythos and portrayed as equal to their male counterparts right from day one in tales, storylines and depictions where known one was thrown under the proverbial bus on some wholly manufactured gender imbalance/conflict that was non-existent prior to Coates ongoing derailment of the BP mythos.

Most posters familiar with me in this thread no that there is no greater appreciator of Shuri in here than me but here's the thing, I appreciated Shuri for who she was as written by Hudlin, Maberry, (initially) Liss and Hickman when she was clearly portrayed as being fiercely loyal to Wakanda in an uncompromising manner that wasn't even embodied by her own brother post Hudlin.

T'Challa's masculinity is not in question here as regards his general portrayal in the MU/MCU, it's his depiction as a completely lacklustre background character in his current solo book that remains irksome.

And as regards the portrayal of the eponymous King in the BP movie when compared to his initial introduction to the MCU via Captain America: Civil War, I'm going to boldly state that apart from the beginning of the BP movie wherein I personally felt T'Challa was portrayed very well, the rest was pure milquetoast moreso for the fact, that I found every other supporting cast member than the main character, a lot more compelling and relevant to the overall movie.

I've never felt that way about any other comicbook character portrayed in movies other than Blade when he was put all back of the bus behind Ryan Reynolds character and the Nightstalkers in the Blade:Trinity movie.

Pretty sure Ezyo and I have answered the bolded multiple times.

[butterflykyss]

Bast is an "it" not a she.

Why did you build up the women, but call Tchalla the imperfect man. As if the women had no flaws

I'm pretty sure bast both historically and in the comics is female.

[Cville]

I'm pretty sure bast both historically and in the comics is female.

The Panther god shows up in Ellis' four part mini and its male. The picture of Bast with pantheron portrays her as male. She can be either. Pretty sure her bio says so as well. Either the DK book or Marvel wiki. Cant be sure which.

[Ezyo1000]

The T'Challa exhibited during CA:Civil War, was focused, tactical, supremely capable, confident and undeniable in the immediate aftermath of T'Chaka's murder.

He physically took on both Captain America and the Winter Soldier at different points in that movie both in and out of suit without losing a beat whilst maintainingthe presence of mind to stealthily track Baron Zemo's trail to its thematic end thus proving that even in his state of grief, he was still capable of applying his intellectual prowess and ability to show mercy.

I didn't really get any of that vibe in the BP solo other than within the opening segment set in the Nigerian forest and I'm sorry to say that my opinion as regards Coogler's take on T'Challa is getting worse following repeated viewings of the movie.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Coogler incorporating a lot of Coates wackness into the next BP solo movie to be quite frank.

See the more I view CW the more I get the feeling you have from his Solo. At first I thought T'Challa was awesome in CW, but after repeated viewings? It becomes clear that he doesn't get any solid wins on anyone. His solo? He wrecks shop. Very few heroes get decisive wins over the main villain. Usually it requires the villain doing something stupid or the hero getting an assist. Fully focused T'Challa straight up won against Erik. CW had hawk eye out him in a headlock and stopped by widows tasers.

I honestly don't see Coogler incorporating anything Coates had done. He already blew that theory out of the water given the first 30 min of the solo

[Ezyo1000]

I agree with a great many things you’ve said here. What are some ways in which Coogler has shown his exceptional grasp of displaying this aspect of T’Challa in regards to the many women in his life?

I have to say that I loved T’Chadwick’s portrayal. His narrative was most compelling to me personally. I was endeared to everyone, but BP was the man that took the cake for me.

I see it on the interactions. When he is talking to Nakia, Okoye Shuri or his mother, it feels like they are actually connected. The banter with Shuri is like siblings, how he confided in Nakia showed the feelings still there. How he and Okoye talked was that familiar bond. It felt organic and not forced or just going for silly fun.

[Cville]

I see it on the interactions. When he is talking to Nakia, Okoye Shuri or his mother, it feels like they are actually connected. The banter with Shuri is like siblings, how he confided in Nakia showed the feelings still there. How he and Okoye talked was that familiar bond. It felt organic and not forced or just going for silly fun.

I liked the way you put this statement. He interacts differently with different people depending on how they relate to him. In Coates he has about two notes. Depression and slightly less depressed(usually when Storm is around) lol.

[butterflykyss]

The Panther god shows up in Ellis' four part mini and its male. The picture of Bast with pantheron portrays her as male. She can be either. Pretty sure her bio says so as well. Either the DK book or Marvel wiki. Cant be sure which.

https://simple.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bast

bast was never a Male. this is something coates has corrected thnk goodness.

[Ezyo1000]

Bast is an "it" not a she.

Why did you build up the women, but call Tchalla the imperfect man. As if the women had no flaws

Yeah that part seemed weird, like a subtle dig at T'Challa. I mean as Maj said from day one thr BP mythos has treated women as equals to men. This isn't nee MCU isht. This is day one BP isht that showed why BP has always been ahead of it's time

[Ezyo1000]

I liked the way you put this statement. He interacts differently with different people depending on how they relate to him. In Coates he has about two notes. Depression and slightly less depressed(usually when Storm is around) lol.

its the difference between T'Challa and thor or Tony or cap. Depending on who you are talking to, you change how you speak. No one crack's jokes non-stop to strangers or friends without pause.

As for the solo? Coates can't capture anyone's voice. It's all the same

[Cville]

https://simple.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bast

bast was never a Male. this is something coates has corrected thnk goodness.

This is the real Bast wiki.

Try the Marvel one. Pretty sure she has both Male and Female forms.

[Kasper Cole]

https://simple.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bast

bast was never a Male. this is something coates has corrected thnk goodness.

The Panther God and Best weren't always one in the same. Originally the Panther gods gender was fluid. Priest was the one who connected decided the Panther God would be the Marvel universe version of Bast. So while the original mythological figure was always female the Marvel version wasn't.