Black Panther Appreciation 2019

[XPac]

Here's a thought... Maybe the guy who's name is on the damn title should be able to figure it out and save the day on his own.. I mean he IS a superhero after all... And when has bast ever bothered to help.. Never..



He's just a passenger forced to sit as they ride the jagged road and once they crash it will be his fault. I sincerely wonder if Coates is proud of this work abd thinks he is actually elevating T'Challa and Wakanda or if he knows it's all bullisht to try and get that Storm solo

Usually Bast does stay clear of things... but she's got good reason to want to get more personally involved with his one. She owes Killmonger a recipt for their last encounter.

[DigiCom]

I tricky thing about marvel is that it can be tough to define what a god actually is. Is it just someone very powerful who happens to be immortal (or at least very slow to age as Asgardians do age). If so, Silver Surfer or Franklin Richards have just as much right to call themselves gods as Thor (heck, they might outlive him in terms of natural death).

When so many people are walking around potentially as powerful as most of the gods, it really makes the notion somewhat watered down.

Maybe for earth gods at least, gods have to be descendents of Gaea or something.

It's only tricky when Marvel editorial doesn't pay attention to their own continuity. It was established YEARS ago that all the pantheons of earth are descended from the Elder Goddess Gaea & the Demiurge (the sentient life force of Earth)

I'm surprised they never used Killmonger for that. Given his relatively good track record against T'Challa, he would have been a no brainer.

I wondered a couple times if that goddess Killmonger saw in his mini was Hathor, but she looked more like a leopard than a lion.

Considering that in her last appearance, Hathor got stoned and started talking like a LOLcat, that can only be for the best.

[chief12d]

It's only tricky when Marvel editorial doesn't pay attention to their own continuity. It was established YEARS ago that all the pantheons of earth are descended from the Elder Goddess Gaea & the Demiurge (the sentient life force of Earth)



Considering that in her last appearance, Hathor got stoned and started talking like a LOLcat, that can only be for the best.

From what I remember it was said that the Orisha are the children of Elder Gods, they just were born (and presumably raised) as humans. They had inherently divine potential that could only be realized by faith. That’s how Storm was able to ascend, because it’s been implied for decades that her family had a special connection to Oshtur, one of the few remaining elder gods.

And I’m pretty sure that was the cause of the first schism in Wakandan religion. Some people like Zavawari refused to worship the new gods and still worship the elder gods. He actually invoked them during a fight with the Originators and called them Nommo and Ammah, which I assume are just the Wakandan names for Gaea and Set (though they’re also gods of the Dogon religion in Mali).

So technically Coates didn’t change the genealogy, he changed how it operated by having the gods’ inherited power derive from faith so that Storm could join the Orisha. Which kinda fucks up the timeline by making it so the Wakandan gods aren’t older than humanity even though most of the pantheons predate life on Earth. Editorial should’ve said something because that’s just bad writing.

[Cville]

From what I remember it was said that the Orisha are the children of Elder Gods, they just were born (and presumably raised) as humans. They had inherently divine potential that could only be realized by faith. That’s how Storm was able to ascend, because it’s been implied for decades that her family had a special connection to Oshtur, one of the few remaining elder gods.

And I’m pretty sure that was the cause of the first schism in Wakandan religion. Some people like Zavawari refused to worship the new gods and still worship the elder gods. He actually invoked them during a fight with the Originators and called them Nommo and Ammah, which I assume are just the Wakandan names for Gaea and Set (though they’re also gods of the Dogon religion in Mali).

So technically Coates didn’t change the genealogy, he changed how it operated by having the gods’ inherited power derive from faith so that Storm could join the Orisha. Which kinda fucks up the timeline by making it so the Wakandan gods aren’t older than humanity even though most of the pantheons predate life on Earth. Editorial should’ve said something because that’s just bad writing.

What's your source for that? The first time their called Orisha is under Coates.

[chief12d]

What's your source for that? The first time their called Orisha is under Coates.

It’s from Coates’ own mythology beginning with issue 14 when Zavawari says he’s been worshipping the Elder Gods since Wakanda’s ancestors were young. In issue 15 he invokes Nommo (by which everything lives) and Ammah (by which everything dies) to seal the Originators’ gate in the Jabari-Lands. When he gets knocked out Shuri describes how there was a war in Wakanda’s “deep past” between worshippers of the elder gods and followers of the Orisha, which is where she gives their parentage.

I think her statement is supposed to bridge the gap between Coates’ interpretation and what came before by confirming that Bast and them are descended from the Demiurge and Gaea.

[Cville]

It’s from Coates’ own mythology beginning with issue 14 when Zavawari says he’s been worshipping the Elder Gods since Wakanda’s ancestors were young. In issue 15 he invokes Nommo (by which everything lives) and Ammah (by which everything dies) to seal the Originators’ gate in the Jabari-Lands. When he gets knocked out Shuri describes how there was a war in Wakanda’s “deep past” between worshippers of the elder gods and followers of the Orisha, which is where she gives their parentage.

I think her statement is supposed to bridge the gap between Coates’ interpretation and what came before by confirming that Bast and them are descended from the Demiurge and Gaea.

I just checked. It says children of elder god, but not gods themselves. Essentially they are what Storm is if she is descended from an Elder god too. So it remains that he downgraded Bast to Storms level so she could have a feat.

[chief12d]

I just checked. It says children of elder god, but not gods themselves. Essentially they are what Storm is if she is descended from an Elder god too. So it remains that he downgraded Bast to Storms level so she could have a feat.

He absolutely did and I’ve said that before. According to Coates, similar to how the heretics of the deep past were wrong to say the Orisha weren’t gods, you’re wrong to believe Storm isn’t a god because she has divine potential. It’s completely changing the mythos for no other reason other than to elevate her, continuity be damned. I was just pointing out that I’m not sure he changed their actual lineage.

[Ezyo1000]

Usually Bast does stay clear of things... but she's got good reason to want to get more personally involved with his one. She owes Killmonger a recipt for their last encounter.

She had more of a reason to get involved when the death of the universe was at stake. This? She doesn't need to be involved. This os just more of Coates not wanting T'Challa to be the driver of his book.

[Cville]

He absolutely did and I’ve said that before. According to Coates, similar to how the heretics of the deep past were wrong to say the Orisha weren’t gods, you’re wrong to believe Storm isn’t a god because she has divine potential. It’s completely changing the mythos for no other reason other than to elevate her, continuity be damned. I was just pointing out that I’m not sure he changed their actual lineage.

Wouldn't their original lineage be when Atum became the Demiorge and spread "godstuff" throughout the planet using human minds to for the Earth Pantheons? Simultaneously giving them substance, but also making whatever origins true as well.

Because Odin falls into that category as well and he'll swear he created the Nine Realms. He said it as recently as issue of Aaron's Avengers. Lol.

[Ezyo1000]

He absolutely did and I’ve said that before. According to Coates, similar to how the heretics of the deep past were wrong to say the Orisha weren’t gods, you’re wrong to believe Storm isn’t a god because she has divine potential. It’s completely changing the mythos for no other reason other than to elevate her, continuity be damned. I was just pointing out that I’m not sure he changed their actual lineage.

And look at it this way, look how much work Coates put into giving Storm this feat. He nuked the isht out the the BP mythos and T'Challa to do it. Imagine what could of been done for T'Challa and Wakanda of he put that much effort for Storm, into T'Challa?

But nah we get T'Challa who the last time he tried to take on a villain alone was zenzi in S1 and he lost because he wasn't prepared.. ever since then he NEVER has defeated a villain Solo, abd in a couple cases didn't even best the big bad.. that's what Coates thinks of T'Challa. Oh and that he just casually threw away being married to OMG Storm a goddess!!

[KOSLOX]

All I want for Christmas is for this bulls*** to end.

This story has been so boring and filled with navel gazing to the point the ANY ending is just going to be met with a shrug and, "Oh, it took four years to get to that?"

[Mr MajestiK]

Except it's wrong. I hope I've established that my interest in Black Panther goes way back. McGregor's run is my favorite run (although I need to find an excuse to re-read Priest's run) and I'm still interested in this story. My complaints about it aren't the deconstruction elements that most complain about (which, imo, haven't really been a major factor since the first story concluded) but the massive pacing issues, but I'm invested in seeing where the story goes and I like reading Black Panther, so I'm motivated to keep going.

I wasn't referring to you though.

[chief12d]

Wouldn't their original lineage be when Atum became the Demiorge and spread "godstuff" throughout the planet using human minds to for the Earth Pantheons? Simultaneously giving them substance, but also making whatever origins true as well.

Because Odin falls into that category as well and he'll swear he created the Nine Realms. He said it as recently as issue of Aaron's Avengers. Lol.

I think you might be describing the birth of the skyfathers, not the pantheons themselves. Isn’t the story that the Demiurge’s godstuff is what created the skyfathers and that Gaea reproduced with all of them to create lower gods like Thor? If that’s still the case then Bast is a child of Ra (who’s actually the Demiurge in some reduced form) and Gaea in the guise of Isis. So in a certain sense she’s a sibling to Odin because Atum is like his father lol.

But it’s tricky with the Egyptian pantheon because in plenty of tellings Bast doesn’t have a well defined origin and is either spontaneously created without a mother or considered an aspect of Isis. Either way she’s got some elder god in her.

[XPac]

She had more of a reason to get involved when the death of the universe was at stake. This? She doesn't need to be involved. This os just more of Coates not wanting T'Challa to be the driver of his book.

I'm not saying she needs to get involved... I'm saying after what Killmonger did to her, I'm not surprised she wants to be.

[DigiCom]

From what I remember it was said that the Orisha are the children of Elder Gods, they just were born (and presumably raised) as humans. They had inherently divine potential that could only be realized by faith. That’s how Storm was able to ascend, because it’s been implied for decades that her family had a special connection to Oshtur, one of the few remaining elder gods.

And I’m pretty sure that was the cause of the first schism in Wakandan religion. Some people like Zavawari refused to worship the new gods and still worship the elder gods. He actually invoked them during a fight with the Originators and called them Nommo and Ammah, which I assume are just the Wakandan names for Gaea and Set (though they’re also gods of the Dogon religion in Mali).

So technically Coates didn’t change the genealogy, he changed how it operated by having the gods’ inherited power derive from faith so that Storm could join the Orisha. Which kinda fucks up the timeline by making it so the Wakandan gods aren’t older than humanity even though most of the pantheons predate life on Earth. Editorial should’ve said something because that’s just bad writing.

It’s from Coates’ own mythology beginning with issue 14 when Zavawari says he’s been worshipping the Elder Gods since Wakanda’s ancestors were young. In issue 15 he invokes Nommo (by which everything lives) and Ammah (by which everything dies) to seal the Originators’ gate in the Jabari-Lands. When he gets knocked out Shuri describes how there was a war in Wakanda’s “deep past” between worshippers of the elder gods and followers of the Orisha, which is where she gives their parentage.

I think her statement is supposed to bridge the gap between Coates’ interpretation and what came before by confirming that Bast and them are descended from the Demiurge and Gaea.

For the record, Nommo and Amma aren't Marvel characters... they are real gods who were worshiped by the Dogon people of Mali. So having him worship them doesn't really say anything about whether Coates' Orishas were descended from Gaea.

Note, also that there was already a group called the Orishas in Marvel who WERE descended from her, although they didn't look like weird aliens:

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/africg.htm

And yes, that's the same bunch Jericho gets involved with.