Black Panther Appreciation 2019

[DigiCom]

It is a fair point to argue that Wakanda deals with more real life issues than Attilan or Atlantis or Asgard. Despite being technologically advanced it's more grounded to the point where you can deal with more realistic problems like drugs or sex trafficers. Unlike Themescara or Atlantis, Africa is a real place with real problems and that can bleed into comics because marvel despite everything going on is still suppossedly the world outside our window.

That's a cop-out. Europe is a real place too, but when was the last time Doom had to deal with rape camps? (I'd say drug dealers, but he actually DID deal with that in an issue of Doom 2099. He handled it personally in two pages). I find it disingenuous at best that the sole superhero kingdom ruled by a minority is the only one that has "real problems".

ETA: I was wrong, it was four pages. Admittedly, two of them are dialogue-less panels of him beating the living isht out of the drug dealer in question.

[Ezyo1000]

If Black Bolt isn't already king, he will be again just as surely as Thor will eventually weasel his way off the throne at the first convenient opportunity. For It better or for worse, the status quo pretty much always returns. Any king that loses their throne will get it back, whether it's the actual super hero like Aquaman and Black Panther, or a super heros parent like Wonder Womans mom or Thors dad. None of this stuff sticks in the long term... which is PROBABLY a good thing (though some might disagree).

It is a fair point to argue that Wakanda deals with more real life issues than Attilan or Atlantis or Asgard. Despite being technologically advanced it's more grounded to the point where you can deal with more realistic problems like drugs or sex trafficers. Unlike Themescara or Atlantis, Africa is a real place with real problems and that can bleed into comics because marvel despite everything going on is still suppossedly the world outside our window.

But it's not because it's separated from the rest of Africa. War Lord's and sex trafficking doesn't happen because they don't deal with with the same problems as Africa. The fact that Coates injected them into the mythos just shows a lack of creativity and care of what Wakanda is and the unique issues they deal with

[XPac]

That's a cop-out. Europe is a real place too, but when was the last time Doom had to deal with rape camps? (I'd say drug dealers, but he actually DID deal with that in an issue of Doom 2099. He handled it personally in two pages). I find it disingenuous at best that the sole superhero kingdom ruled by a minority is the only one that has "real problems".

ETA: I was wrong, it was four pages. Admittedly, two of them are dialogue-less panels of him beating the living isht out of the drug dealer in question.

We see human trafficing and drugs in the US too in comics, so it's not like Wakanda is the only place on earth where stuff like this can happen.

But it's certainly true that Latveria doesn't experience the same levels of real life issues that Wakanda gets, apart from the occasional coup when they want to shake up Dooms status quo. Latveria doesn't get the development Wakanda gets, for better or for worse. It's often just the place Doom happens to hang out in during his stories. If Doom is able to sustain his own book for longer periods of time, it's entirely possible they might bring more real life issues to Latveria. We'll see.

[XPac]

But it's not because it's separated from the rest of Africa. War Lord's and sex trafficking doesn't happen because they don't deal with with the same problems as Africa. The fact that Coates injected them into the mythos just shows a lack of creativity and care of what Wakanda is and the unique issues they deal with

They have had drug lords and kidnappers in Wakanda prior to Coates, so havign sex trafficing isn't that huge a stretch.

[Chesterfield]

An important watch...

https://youtu.be/jOTEs2UHego

[Ezyo1000]

They have had drug lords and kidnappers in Wakanda prior to Coates, so havign sex trafficing isn't that huge a stretch.

Crack i. Wakanda was taken care of personally by T'Challa.. quickly and mercilessly, and there weren't drug Lord's. That makes it sound like they actually had a hold in Wakanda. That was not rhe case. Kidnapping is different fro. Sex trafficking, especially when they have a full blown operation and a frakking rape treehouse. Abd yes it is a stretch Because Coates is saying that from the end of sw to the start of S1, Wakanda degraded so far so far that they would end up raping and has misogyny and gender inequality rampant in Wakanda with the government doing nothing about it. Huge stretch. This is Wakanda, a place where T'Challa can walk up to superheroes in America and know intimate details about them because of his spy network and ability to gather information, yet a full-blown rape treehouse went under the radar?? Plus given BP wow, the MA knew about it abd didn't report it, and the people who were apart of the villages of the tribe leader raping girls never thought "hey let's report this to the king"? Huge stretch. Bad writing is bad writing

[XPac]

Crack i. Wakanda was taken care of personally by T'Challa.. quickly and mercilessly, and there weren't drug Lord's. That makes it sound like they actually had a hold in Wakanda. That was not rhe case. Kidnapping is different fro. Sex trafficking, especially when they have a full blown operation and a frakking rape treehouse. Abd yes it is a stretch Because Coates is saying that from the end of sw to the start of S1, Wakanda degraded so far so far that they would end up raping and has misogyny and gender inequality rampant in Wakanda with the government doing nothing about it. Huge stretch. This is Wakanda, a place where T'Challa can walk up to superheroes in America and know intimate details about them because of his spy network and ability to gather information, yet a full-blown rape treehouse went under the radar?? Plus given BP wow, the MA knew about it abd didn't report it, and the people who were apart of the villages of the tribe leader raping girls never thought "hey let's report this to the king"? Huge stretch. Bad writing is bad writing

US has an 81 billion dollar budget, yet there's likely human trafficing occuring within half a mile of the white house. Crime happens, even for richer more technologically advanced places. It sucks, but what can ya do? And when street crime occurs, it pretty much never falls on the lap of the guy currently running the nation.

It's not bad writing, it's simply interjecting realism into the story. Which isn't everyones cup of tea.

[Ezyo1000]

US has an 81 billion dollar budget, yet there's likely human trafficing occuring within half a mile of the white house. Crime happens, even for richer more technologically advanced places. It sucks, but what can ya do? And when street crime occurs, it pretty much never falls on the lap of the guy currently running the nation.

It's not bad writing, it's simply interjecting realism into the story. Which isn't everyones cup of tea.

America is also much bigger then Wakanda as Wakanda is only the size of New Jersey. And Wakanda has over a trillion dollar Budget, and is the most technologically advanced nation on earth.. and the amount of information T'Challa knows about what goes on internationally is astounding so it's only logical to know that domestically he is going to know even more of what's going on.

And why is it only Wakanda gets shackled with "realism" the kind that just so happens to be what the Western powers stereotypically view Africa as? Plus miss me with that "And when street crime occurs, it pretty much never falls on the lap of the guy currently running the nation" because this is super hero comic's, not a nonfictional look at human nations abd governments.

So yes crime does fall in T'Challas lap because it's his book and he is a superhero. So yeah it IS bad writing because this is fantasy where gods and aliens, and the like happen on a daily basis, and if this is the best that a writer can come up with for an afrofuturistic nation.. Bad writing

[Redjack]

the USA is not a model for Wakanda, nor is Europe. Those places are insanely diverse and have centuries of intermixing and trading with their neighbors. they also have histories of expansion, conquest and colonization,. None of that has anything to do with Wakanda which is, literally, the opposite of those things.

you want to look at a place like Finland or Iceland for crime rates. homogeneous ethnic population, little to no real contact with outsiders. and, again, as others have pointed out, Wakanda is NOT Africa. Wakanda predates the concept of Africa. Wakanda is Wakanda. They cut themselves off from Africa and have lived apart for 10k years. there's no human trafficking there. who are they trafficking to when the greatest crime would be revealing the place even exists? how would they even begin to make those networks? who are they getting the coke from? how do they know it even exists if there's no influx of foreigners into the main populace? there's no crack epidemic. that makes zero sense.

those are AMERICAN issues. those are issues across modern Africa, sure, but Wakanda isn't modern Africa. Wakanda is Wakanda.

also, this bizarre need to inject "realism" into stories about people who have intergalactic empires and talk to gods on the spirit plane is, well, bizarre.

super-hero comic books aren't meant to carry the weight of all that realism. they're meant to ping our morality, our aspirations, our sense of right and wrong. they are not meant to be docudramas about how awful things are in the real world. they're meant to send us into the real world hoping to help make it better.

super-hero comics that DON'T do that (unless the whole point is to show a darker riff on the subject a la WATCHMEN or POWERS) are failures, IMO.

[DigiCom]

We see human trafficing and drugs in the US too in comics, so it's not like Wakanda is the only place on earth where stuff like this can happen.

But it's the only place where it's depicted as such a huge problem that a major portion of the security service revolts.

US has an 81 billion dollar budget, yet there's likely human trafficing occuring within half a mile of the white house. Crime happens, even for richer more technologically advanced places. It sucks, but what can ya do? And when street crime occurs, it pretty much never falls on the lap of the guy currently running the nation

Call me when the Secret Service revolts against the US Government because they failed to address human trafficking in New Mexico.

[Vordan]

the USA is not a model for Wakanda, nor is Europe. Those places are insanely diverse and have centuries of intermixing and trading with their neighbors. they also have histories of expansion, conquest and colonization,. None of that has anything to do with Wakanda which is, literally, the opposite of those things.

you want to look at a place like Finland or Iceland for crime rates. homogeneous ethnic population, little to no real contact with outsiders. and, again, as others have pointed out, Wakanda is NOT Africa. Wakanda predates the concept of Africa. Wakanda is Wakanda. They cut themselves off from Africa and have lived apart for 10k years. there's no human trafficking there. who are they trafficking to when the greatest crime would be revealing the place even exists? how would they even begin to make those networks? who are they getting the coke from? how do they know it even exists if there's no influx of foreigners into the main populace? there's no crack epidemic. that makes zero sense.

those are AMERICAN issues. those are issues across modern Africa, sure, but Wakanda isn't modern Africa. Wakanda is Wakanda.

also, this bizarre need to inject "realism" into stories about people who have intergalactic empires and talk to gods on the spirit plane is, well, bizarre.

super-hero comic books aren't meant to carry the weight of all that realism. they're meant to ping our morality, our aspirations, our sense of right and wrong. they are not meant to be docudramas about how awful things are in the real world. they're meant to send us into the real world hoping to help make it better.

super-hero comics that DON'T do that (unless the whole point is to show a darker riff on the subject a la WATCHMEN or POWERS) are failures, IMO.

Which kind of feeds into one of the big problems with how Wakanda is used. It’s not treated as an independent entity with its own history and issues, but is mostly treated as a way to explore problems African-Americans deal with. Logically like you said Wakanda is rich, technologically advanced (nominally although Coates has kind of changed that to only the cities being advanced), and apparently shares some of traditionally “liberal” values so it should have low crime, high rates of personal happiness, and basically be one of the most well off places on Earth. But then you can’t really set many adventures in Wakanda without making T’Challa look incompetent. Either Wakanda is a great place in which case there really shouldn’t be much need of BP to be active within the borders, or it’s not which kind of undermines the whole point of it. That’s why I like your idea (or at least I think it was yours) of T’Challa letting Shuri or the ruling body handle the actual day to day handling of Wakanda while T’Challa is more of a global superhero.

[XPac]

But it's the only place where it's depicted as such a huge problem that a major portion of the security service revolts.



Call me when the Secret Service revolts against the US Government because they failed to address human trafficking in New Mexico.

The revolt was less about the street crime and more about sentencing one of their one of their own.

Though the fact that they all revolted probably implies they wanted independence anyways.

[DigiCom]

The revolt was less about the street crime and more about sentencing one of their one of their own.

Though the fact that they all revolted probably implies they wanted independence anyways.

In the end, I think what really annoys me is that the situation with those "rape camps" wasn't even the POINT of the story. The entire thing was just created so that the MA could beat up some Evil Men™. I mean, neither the perpetrators nor the victims even had NAMES. They were just plot devices created by Coates, (in turn making the Wakandan government a combination of incompetence and corruption) solely so his pet characters would have something to be superior about.

Forget about Women In Refrigerators. This was Women in Treehouses.

[XPac]

the USA is not a model for Wakanda, nor is Europe. Those places are insanely diverse and have centuries of intermixing and trading with their neighbors. they also have histories of expansion, conquest and colonization,. None of that has anything to do with Wakanda which is, literally, the opposite of those things.

you want to look at a place like Finland or Iceland for crime rates. homogeneous ethnic population, little to no real contact with outsiders. and, again, as others have pointed out, Wakanda is NOT Africa. Wakanda predates the concept of Africa. Wakanda is Wakanda. They cut themselves off from Africa and have lived apart for 10k years. there's no human trafficking there. who are they trafficking to when the greatest crime would be revealing the place even exists? how would they even begin to make those networks? who are they getting the coke from? how do they know it even exists if there's no influx of foreigners into the main populace? there's no crack epidemic. that makes zero sense.

those are AMERICAN issues. those are issues across modern Africa, sure, but Wakanda isn't modern Africa. Wakanda is Wakanda.

also, this bizarre need to inject "realism" into stories about people who have intergalactic empires and talk to gods on the spirit plane is, well, bizarre.

super-hero comic books aren't meant to carry the weight of all that realism. they're meant to ping our morality, our aspirations, our sense of right and wrong. they are not meant to be docudramas about how awful things are in the real world. they're meant to send us into the real world hoping to help make it better.

super-hero comics that DON'T do that (unless the whole point is to show a darker riff on the subject a la WATCHMEN or POWERS) are failures, IMO.

Crime and human trafficing can and has occured in Iceland and Finland too. Their rates are low, but it exists. You get crime of various shapes and sizes anywhere and anytime. I don't think these qualifyas American or african issues ... I think theyre pretty much constants to one degree or another across the board.

As far as interjecting realism into stories ... marvel being the world outside our window is practically a company slogan.

Which isnt to say its any sort of obligation. I assume the degree of realism inserted in the fiction is entirely at the writers personal discretion.

[XPac]

In the end, I think what really annoys me is that the situation with those "rape camps" wasn't even the POINT of the story. The entire thing was just created so that the MA could beat up some Evil Men™. I mean, neither the perpetrators nor the victims even had NAMES. They were just plot devices created by Coates, (in turn making the Wakandan government a combination of incompetence and corruption) solely so his pet characters would have something to be superior about.

Forget about Women In Refrigerators. This was Women in Treehouses.

It was a tricky balancing act because you wanted to give them reason to revolt without flat out turning them into villains.

Killing rapists works because its still murder and still wrong, BUT you can still sympathize and maybe even root for them a little. Its not impoosible to look at people murdering rapists as murderous criminals and heroes at the same time.