Black Panther Appreciation 2019

[Vibranium Weave]

Just because he doesn't want to be king doesn't mean he doesn't know dam well no one could do the job better than him though. I think it's very believable he wouldn't just allow anyone to take the job unless they could do it at least as well. Or they beat him fair and square. Neither of which is likely to ever happen, Killmonger aside.

Your comment doesn't make sense. S'yan was already ruling. If he didn't want to be King, S'yan would have continued to rule.

Hell, Shuri could have lead as well.

[XPac]

Your comment doesn't make sense. S'yan was already ruling. If he didn't want to be King, S'yan would have continued to rule.

Hell, Shuri could have lead as well.

Funnily enough Syan and Shuri ended up not wanting the job either. Maybe it's one of those times you don't know you don't want the throne until after you've sat in it.

[Ezyo1000]

Of all the things that Coates has done, "T'Challa doesn't REALLY want to be king" is perhaps the most egregious. Everything else can be handwaved, ignored, or shoved off into Limbo.

But Priest's entire run HINGED on the idea that T'Challa WASN'T a superhero. He was a king. He wasn't even subtle about it... it was stated in black & white more than once (most notably in Ross' big speech). Every BP writer since then has understood that T'Challa's role as king & protector of Wakanda was more important to him than anything, up to and including his role as an Avenger.

Every writer… except one.

Exactly, it flies in the face of what Priest did, Hudlin was the same way in witbp when he had T'Challa talk to the young Wakandan boy. It shows he cares about his people too, and Coates had ramonda say he resents them.. dude just doesn't seem to care about anything anyone did before him abd is hell-bent to try to turn him and his world into something it's not.

[Ezyo1000]

Funnily enough Syan and Shuri ended up not wanting the job either. Maybe it's one of those times you don't know you don't want the throne until after you've sat in it.

"Funnily enough" guess who wrote that S'yan and Shuri both didn't want the throne.. I'm seeing a trend here.. plus that still doesn't work because if he didn't want the throne then when he used the gauntlet he wouldn't of made himself king again. Then we got from nnedi weak ass Shuri who apparently, just like Coates T'Challa, would rather be In A lab. I guess this generation of royals aren't warrior's but a bunch of scientists..

[XPac]

"Funnily enough" guess who wrote that S'yan and Shuri both didn't want the throne.. I'm seeing a trend here.. plus that still doesn't work because if he didn't want the throne then when he used the gauntlet he wouldn't of made himself king again. Then we got from nnedi weak ass Shuri who apparently, just like Coates T'Challa, would rather be In A lab. I guess this generation of royals aren't warrior's but a bunch of scientists..

He would make himself king again whether or not he wanted it because he knows he's best person for the job. It's not just about what he wants, but what Wakanda needs. And he knows no one can do the job better than him. Even as a part time king that spends half the time away from Wakanda playing super hero, he's still obviously smarter and more experienced than anyone they could ever hope to put on the throne.

[DigiCom]

He would make himself king again whether or not he wanted it because he knows he's best person for the job. It's not just about what he wants, but what Wakanda needs. And he knows no one can do the job better than him. Even as a part time king that spends half the time away from Wakanda playing super hero, he's still obviously smarter and more experienced than anyone they could ever hope to put on the throne.

Pity he's been doing such a crap job of it the last few years, then.

(That's what Shuri says, anyway.)

[Mr MajestiK]

Just because he doesn't want to be king doesn't mean he doesn't know dam well no one could do the job better than him though. I think it's very believable he wouldn't just allow anyone to take the job unless they could do it at least as well. Or they beat him fair and square. Neither of which is likely to ever happen, Killmonger aside.

I really didn't want to do this but....

Prior to Coates BP run, where in the entirety of the BP mythos that came before, has T'Challa ever stated that he did not want to be King?

Reading most of your posts on this subject, one would be led to believe that it's your held position that everything Coates has written thus far, invalidates virtually all of the pre-existing BP lore that has been part of T'Challa's and Wakandans shared history and saga path dating back to 1966.

Having (presumably) read all of the BP runs by previous writers, how exactly have you come to this conclusion?

What logical foundation are you relying upon to make such bold pronouncements?

Is said foundation built upon any aspect of the BP mythos that existed before Coates?

[Mr MajestiK]

Of all the things that Coates has done, "T'Challa doesn't REALLY want to be king" is perhaps the most egregious. Everything else can be handwaved, ignored, or shoved off into Limbo.

But Priest's entire run HINGED on the idea that T'Challa WASN'T a superhero. He was a king. He wasn't even subtle about it... it was stated in black & white more than once (most notably in Ross' big speech). Every BP writer since then has understood that T'Challa's role as king & protector of Wakanda was more important to him than anything, up to and including his role as an Avenger.

Every writer… except one.

It's kind of funny to me that some posters who claim to revere Priest's BP run above all others, would go on to endorse Coates run as being thematically sound even though everything Coates has written so far, utterly throws shade at Priest's entire run in its entirety.

That level of deliberately wilful cognitive dissonance is beyond comprehension.

[DigiCom]

It's kind of funny to me that some posters who claim to revere Priest's BP run above all others, would go on to endorse Coates run as being thematically sound even though everything Coates has written so far, utterly throws shade at Priest's entire run in its entirety.

It's more tiresome for me. I mean, I can't really argue with folks who like the run (as much as I would like to) but the cognitive loops people jump through to justify Coates' creative choices just wear me out:

• The Midnight Angels are wrong, but they are also right. It's a delicate balance required to spend 12 issues telling their story (after which they get everything they wanted, despite being traitors & terrorists.)
  
• T'Challa doesn't want to be king, but he knows he's better than anyone else (unless you listen to his sister, who ALSO doesn't want to rule, but spends half an issue telling him what he's doing wrong as king.)
• T'Challa is the hero of the book, but he's also the government, so he can't be seen actually fixing problems because crime exists in the real world.

I give up. I love the character and his chess-master approach to problems… but I just don't see him in the comics anymore. He's either a strawman without agency, or stuck on generic superteams where he could be replaced by Iron Man without much effect on the story.

It's going to be a long few years until BP2…

[Mr MajestiK]

It's more tiresome for me. I mean, I can't really argue with folks who like the run (as much as I would like to) but the cognitive loops people jump through to justify Coates' creative choices just wear me out:

• The Midnight Angels are wrong, but they are also right. It's a delicate balance required to spend 12 issues telling their story (after which they get everything they wanted, despite being traitors & terrorists.)
  
• T'Challa doesn't want to be king, but he knows he's better than anyone else (unless you listen to his sister, who ALSO doesn't want to rule, but spends half an issue telling him what he's doing wrong as king.)
• T'Challa is the hero of the book, but he's also the government, so he can't be seen actually fixing problems because crime exists in the real world.

I give up. I love the character and his chess-master approach to problems… but I just don't see him in the comics anymore. He's either a strawman without agency, or stuck on generic superteams where he could be replaced by Iron Man without much effect on the story.

It's going to be a long few years until BP2…

Ain't that the truth my brother. :smh:

After awhile, countering disingenuously presented arguments becomes tiresome but one continues to do so owing to the outrageously blatant nature of said arguments.

From day one of his introduction into the 616 MU by Messrs Lee and Kirby all the way back in 1966, T'Challa was always portrayed as the quintessential renaissance man of the future, oiving in a technologically advanced paradise hidden away from the prying eyes of the rest of the world and as such, left untouched and unsullied by enslavement or colonialism or any of the other evils that proliferated outside of its hidden borders.

T'Challa raised to be prepared for the unknown, aalways seven steps ahead of his friends and foes alike, was an enigmatic figure whose dedication to the protection of his people first and foremost and then the rest of the world but somehow, starting with Jonathan Maberry's Doomwar, the chumping of T'Challa began.

AvX added to said chumping wherein T'Challa and Ororo's marriage was nuked by a cabal of writers affiliated with or in the process of being inducted into the X-office coterie of scribes and even Jonathan Hickman who actually captured T'Challa's voice and determined resolve in the initial issues of his New Avengers, he too succumbed to the seemingly inevitable desire to neuter T'Challa thus paving the way for Coates to take the proverbial bull by the horns and really push the T'Challa as milquetoast narrative to the max.

Coates is merely another cog in the pre-existing wheel of T'Challa's never ending cycle of character destroying deconstruction.

Couple all of these factors with the recently revealed derogatory comments made by Terry Gilliam in relation to the Black Panther movie, and it's pretty evident that there seems to be something of a determined pushback upon anything (even fictional) that challenges the blatantly stereotypical portrayal of black men that challenges that negative narrative.

It's unfortunate that Coates fails to see this or remains wilfully oblivious to the reality of how he himself, contributes to this negativity.

I presume he could care less as long as he gets to weave his particular brand of 12 Years a Boko Boko Haram themed aesthetic through the BP solo.

[XPac]

Pity he's been doing such a crap job of it the last few years, then.

(That's what Shuri says, anyway.)

Shuri flat out credits him for Wakanda's golden age, so I don't think she believes he's doing a crap job at all.

[XPac]

It's more tiresome for me. I mean, I can't really argue with folks who like the run (as much as I would like to) but the cognitive loops people jump through to justify Coates' creative choices just wear me out:

• The Midnight Angels are wrong, but they are also right. It's a delicate balance required to spend 12 issues telling their story (after which they get everything they wanted, despite being traitors & terrorists.)
  
• T'Challa doesn't want to be king, but he knows he's better than anyone else (unless you listen to his sister, who ALSO doesn't want to rule, but spends half an issue telling him what he's doing wrong as king.)
• T'Challa is the hero of the book, but he's also the government, so he can't be seen actually fixing problems because crime exists in the real world.

I give up. I love the character and his chess-master approach to problems… but I just don't see him in the comics anymore. He's either a strawman without agency, or stuck on generic superteams where he could be replaced by Iron Man without much effect on the story.

It's going to be a long few years until BP2…

Alright, lets' take it one point at a time since perhaps I'm not being clear.

Legally and even ethically the MA were wrong for commiting murder. Any criminal, even rapists deserve proper due process. But it's for some people to root for someone who murders a rapists. It's an easier position to appreciate if you were living in the marvel universe than if you were just reading about it in a comic book.

If I had to choose which super hero was living in my neighborhood, I might choose Punisher because he doesn't just stop problems... he makes them go away. Daredevil or Spider-Man or Captain America bad guys are stopped, locked up, and pop up again a weeks. Punisher bad guys for the most part simply cease to exist. Doesn't make what Punisher does right.. it's still murder. But I'd nonetheless apprecite the fact that the problem was not only dealt with but permanently ended.

Even Maria Hill once made the point against heroes by asking why hasn't Spider-Man just killed Green Goblin. I'm sure plenty in Gotham wonder why Batman doesn't just flat out kill Joker. I think it's very easy to appreciate someone going outside the system to get stuff done when the system sometimes fails to protect you. Even if it's wrong. For many it's not as simple as it being a matter of right or wrong.

As far as T'Challa not wanting to be king but still knowing he's better at it... historically some of the best Monarchs are actually people who don't want to be ruler. Roman Empire was filled with examples of that. On some levels that's not entirely suprising... if a person does the job despite not wanting it, you at least KNOW they are doing it for the right reason. But beyond that in T'CHalla's specific case again there's simply no one smarter or more experienced than him. And he knows it. That's not to say he won't make mistakes of course... no one is perfect. But odds are pretty good no one in his positon would do a better job. The fact that rulership is tied to the BP mantle or protecor and he's also the most skilled fighter doubles down on the notion that really no one makes a better BP than him. Shuri is an acceptable replacement if need be... but I think the tail end of Time Runs Out showed us who should be wearing that mantle if push comes to shove (and I say that as a person who grew into being a fan of Shuri as Black Panther).

And T'Challa can be seen fixing problems... he just can't fix all the problems of the nation. Crime will happen, and he isn't necessarily going to be able to resolve all of it. At the end of the day he's just one guy There's only so much even he can do, especially if a rebellion is occuring while he's spending half his time in the States playing super hero. Some stuff needs to be dealt with by other people... and in this case other people weren't necessarily getting the job done as well as it needed to be done. Sucks, but it does happen.

[DigiCom]

Shuri flat out credits him for Wakanda's golden age, so I don't think she believes he's doing a crap job at all.

Didn't read the last issue, did you...




(…scene removed…)





Oh yes, she LOVES the job he's doing…

[DigiCom]

(My interpretation of that scene, by the way, is that Shuri blames the existence of the Wakandan Empire on T'Challa's space program. In other words, that scene at the end of Secret Wars that we all thought was a good thing. :P )

[XPac]

Didn't read the last issue, did you...




(…scene removed…)





Oh yes, she LOVES the job he's doing…

Again, she also did literally credit Wakanda's golden age to him. YOu can be critical of someone and not believe they are crap. There's a fairly sizable middle ground in between.

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