Black Panther Appreciation 2019

[Ezyo1000]

Not sure why that post is getting so much attention. But I'm pretty sure I know myself well enough to know what I do and do not like.

Several of the posters in response to my post have literal pages of them stating in disagreement on how something is on just a page of preview art it in previous T'Challa threads. Never a question of "are you sure?" there.

I would point out this, yes plenty of posters here (myself included) have had issue's with things that appeared on a panel of preview pages. For instance, BP vs DP plenty of us were not keen on the art. However, after actually reading the issue, seeing all of it put together, it became more apparent that the art worked well for the tone the book was setting and the design became more appealing. That's all Redjack was saying, watch the episode, see what's going on with the full scope and not just a clip and you may change your mind. If not, then your no worse for wear, if so, then its simply, see the whole thing before you decide you don't like it

[XPac]

I would swap Reed and Doom out for Cap and Cyclops and drop Luther for Reed, for my list.

If we are talking about the smartest in comics however....it would be that list but I'm not sure what order I would put them in. It's changes on any given day .

Yeah, I definately think Cap and Cyclops deserve to be close to the top of a top strategist list in the MU. In fact, I think you can probably argue the general consensus in the books is that those are the 2 best team leaders.

Reed is undoubtably the smartest, but I wouldn't say that makes him the best strategist.

[Rumble]

I would swap Reed and Doom out for Cap and Cyclops and drop Luther for Reed, for my list.

If we are talking about the smartest in comics however....it would be that list but I'm not sure what order I would put them in. It's changes on any given day .

Hickman had Reed embarrass Cap pretty bad tho. Made Cap seem like that inspirational floor general whose not built for a chess match, whether literal or metaphoric. That may've just been Hickman being a d-rider, or just a dick.

Guess it kinda comes down to how one assesses intelligence, prep time, reaction time to a sudden predicament, and overall strategic ability.

If Cap and Reed had to strategize against each other, both have different experiences leading teams vs cosmic threats and have different types of intelligence, but i found it interesting that Hickman favored Reed's as a general chess master of people and circumstances, even in battle. It did make me wonder how Cap or Cyclops would fair one on one vs a Reed/Doom, pound 4 pound.

[DragonsChi]

I would point out this, yes plenty of posters here (myself included) have had issue's with things that appeared on a panel of preview pages. For instance, BP vs DP plenty of us were not keen on the art. However, after actually reading the issue, seeing all of it put together, it became more apparent that the art worked well for the tone the book was setting and the design became more appealing. That's all Redjack was saying, watch the episode, see what's going on with the full scope and not just a clip and you may change your mind. If not, then your no worse for wear, if so, then its simply, see the whole thing before you decide you don't like it

I understand what he is saying. However, I do doubt it will change my mind. I have seen the show, I understand the tone, and though I have not seen that episode I know that the designs for those characters are not something I like. I do not like the direction overall that the current line of Marvel cartoons in regards to them and other characters. And the art style plays a large part in that for me.

I feel that it's probably the worst design for those characters I have have seen for a few reasons. Reasons I will wait to express, if I even choose to do so, until I know more. But right now I think they're bad and I hope something is done about it in the future. If not I hope future cartoon's ignore those designs.

[DigiCom]

I'd rank the top 5 h2h but my head hurts just trying to conceptualize all that lady shiva/bronze tiger/cassandra cain/karate kid dissertations from the rumbles board over the years... all i know from the marvel side is BP pwned DD and Elektra and DD and Elektra are both super sayain bullet time rumble board hall of famers. And Wolverine owned Iron Fist in pure skill (granted Bendis wrote that, so maybe it doesn't count) and Iron Fist is super sayian 2 bullet time first ballot his damn self. But BP and Cap owned Wolverine, and BP owned Cap... so by faulty ABC logic, the correct ranking is:

1. Panther
2. Cap
3. Wolverine
4. Doesn't matter

Yup, i'm at peace with these rankings

As you may recall, I tend to give heroes with a dedicated shtick a bit of an edge. Plus, I'd rank pure skill over skill with powers. So for me it would be something like:

1. Shang-Chi
2. Iron Fist (although it's close. Danny relies on the big punch a bit too often, however)
3. Elektra
4. Daredevil
5. Maybe Mantis? Is she still around?
6. Then, your list.

[Cville]

I understand what he is saying. However, I do doubt it will change my mind. I have seen the show, I understand the tone, and though I have not seen that episode I know that the designs for those characters are not something I like. I do not like the direction overall that the current line of Marvel cartoons in regards to them and other characters. And the art style plays a large part in that for me.

I feel that it's probably the worst design for those characters I have have seen for a few reasons. Reasons I will wait to express, if I even choose to do so, until I know more. But right now I think they're bad and I hope something is done about it in the future. If not I hope future cartoon's ignore those designs.

The traditional looking Atlantians are in episode 3 so this memory flashback might take place before the city sinks and they evolve. I've had design issues too though. M'Baku, Taskmaster, Zemo and so on. Lol.

[Rumble]

As you may recall, I tend to give heroes with a dedicated shtick a bit of an edge. Plus, I'd rank pure skill over skill with powers. So for me it would be something like:

1. Shang-Chi
2. Iron Fist (although it's close. Danny relies on the big punch a bit too often, however)
3. Elektra
4. Daredevil
5. Maybe Mantis? Is she still around?
6. Then, your list.

It's certainly hard to weigh the metas among the non-metas esp with the popularity bias; in the early 00's Secret Avengers comic, they had Cap straight up own Shang Chi in a sparring session. And during that same decade, Bendis had the previously mentioned owning of Danny Rand by Wolverine in a sparring session with a noticeably frustrated/embarrassed Danny. And since somethingsomething peak human somethingsomething not really, it makes it hard to gauge whether they really won because they were more skilled or if it's akin to Spider-Man fighting a master level brazilian jujitsu fighter, in which spidey doesn't have to know brazilian jujitsu to out brazilian jujitsu the brazilian jujitsu.

I feel like all the aformentioned except maybe Daredevil (and Mantis, who i'm not as familiar with) have some mystical hokie dokie hocus pocus enhancement to them. or maybe that's just typical ninja powers, disappearing in thin air, etc

[DragonsChi]

Hickman had Reed embarrass Cap pretty bad tho. Made Cap seem like that inspirational floor general whose not built for a chess match, whether literal or metaphoric. That may've just been Hickman being a d-rider, or just a dick.

Guess it kinda comes down to how one assesses intelligence, prep time, reaction time to a sudden predicament, and overall strategic ability.

If Cap and Reed had to strategize against each other, both have different experiences leading teams vs cosmic threats and have different types of intelligence, but i found it interesting that Hickman favored Reed's as a general chess master of people and circumstances, even in battle. It did make me wonder how Cap or Cyclops would fair one on one vs a Reed/Doom, pound 4 pound.

Hickman also admitted that Reed Richards was his favorite character on twitter so I'm not sure he is the best reference there.

But even if that weren't the case Cap has so many W's under his belt with leading armies of super humans, many of which Reed deferred leadership to Cap, that I think it's still in his favor. With prep I also think that Cap would be waaay more dangerous than Reed would. Mostly because I think Cap wouldn't be prideful/above it enough to call in help for a sneak attack or something.

To me....Reed is built more for a lab, while Cap is more built for war. You can plan and theorize all day but when boots hit the ground warriors win wars.

The traditional looking Atlantians are in episode 3 so this memory flashback might take place before the city sinks and they evolve. I've had design issues too though. M'Baku, Taskmaster, Zemo and so on. Lol.

I didn't really care for the the designs in Episode 3 either. And I agree with you on the others.

But again that is just my opinion.

[DigiCom]

I feel like all the aformentioned except maybe Daredevil (and Mantis, who i'm not as familiar with) have some mystical hokie dokie hocus pocus enhancement to them. or maybe that's just typical ninja powers, disappearing in thin air, etc

Danny's the only one with an actual meta ability, but there are plenty of examples of him kicking butt without it (partly due to the fact that writers LOVE taking the Fist away from him) to gauge him accurately.

All the other just had hardcore training by one ancient sect or another. You can't climb a mountain in the Marvel U without tripping over one.

[Rumble]

Hickman also admitted that Reed Richards was his favorite character on twitter so I'm not sure he is the best reference there.

But even if that weren't the case Cap has so many W's under his belt with leading armies of super humans, many of which Reed deferred leadership to Cap, that I think it's still in his favor. With prep I also think that Cap would be waaay more dangerous than Reed would. Mostly because I think Cap wouldn't be prideful/above it enough to call in help for a sneak attack or something.

To me....Reed is built more for a lab, while Cap is more built for war. You can plan and theorize all day but when boots hit the ground warriors win wars.

Interesting. So you think Cap would beat Reed in a prep time battle? I don't think Reed would be prideful in calling for help either, which is what we saw him do in Hickman's run. Both of them called in help, and Reed came out on top bc of the sneak attack by Sue, after months of Machiavellian shenanigans. But again, if Avengers/New Avengers/TRO/etc gets omitted by virtue of Hickman being a Reed dick-rider (which is something i've accused him of often), then that certainly hurts Reed and Doom's case. I'm not opposed to this

[DigiCom]

Interesting. So you think Cap would beat Reed in a prep time battle? I don't think Reed would be prideful in calling for help either, which is what we saw him do in Hickman's run. Both of them called in help, and Reed came out on top bc of the sneak attack by Sue, after months of Machiavellian shenanigans. But again, if Avengers/New Avengers/TRO/etc gets omitted by virtue of Hickman being a Reed dick-rider (which is something i've accused him of often), then that certainly hurts Reed and Doom's case. I'm not opposed to this

Honestly, I don't see Reed as someone who plans ahead. His tactics tend to be more reactive than proactive. "Doom has created a widget! Let me kludge together a gizmo to stop him!"

[XPac]

Honestly, I don't see Reed as someone who plans ahead. His tactics tend to be more reactive than proactive. "Doom has created a widget! Let me kudge together a gizmo to stop him!"

I think it's fair to point out that we don't know for a fact that Reed single handedly even came up with the strategy we saw against Cap in Time Runs Out. He was the one narrating the story, as it was essentially a letter framed to Val. But that doesn't necessarily mean he came up with the strategy. They could have easily came up with it collectively.

[Rumble]

Danny's the only one with an actual meta ability, but there are plenty of examples of him kicking butt without it (partly due to the fact that writers LOVE taking the Fist away from him) to gauge him accurately.

All the other just had hardcore training by one ancient sect or another. You can't climb a mountain in the Marvel U without tripping over one.

Fair enough!

Honestly, I don't see Reed as someone who plans ahead. His tactics tend to be more reactive than proactive. "Doom has created a widget! Let me kudge together a gizmo to stop him!"

Hahah true, but it seems like that's just the inherent hero vs villain thing, right?

Hero minding his own business, then here comes the villain being a dick, and now the hero gotta react to it.

You got those Batman/Black Panther exceptions where the hero has some dick tendencies but seems like heroes have a high intelligence of out-strategizing the villain even after the villain starts off getting the first chess move in. So how do you rank out-strategizing the others?

Does Doctor Doom out-strategize Cyclops, all things being equal? Is that possible to quantify

[MindofShadow]

You give me one choice of leader in an unknown scenario and I am taking T'challa 10/10. He has the best mix of leading armies, prep, tech ass pulls, on the fly tech, using people if needed, and other random comic book shit that the rest don't have.

The last two times I remember sing Shang fighting on panel were his clones getting beaten up by old man Steve and Gorgon throwing him off a dragon mountain. Shang need that movie ASAP.

[DigiCom]

You got those Batman/Black Panther exceptions where the hero has some dick tendencies but seems like heroes have a high intelligence of out-strategizing the villain even after the villain starts off getting the first chess move in. So how do you rank out-strategizing the others?

Does Doctor Doom out-strategize Cyclops, all things being equal? Is that possible to quantify

That's a really good question. Reminds me of this line from "The Last Avengers Story":

That's the problem with heroes, really. Their only purpose in life is to thwart others. They make no plans, develop no strategies. They react instead of act. Without villains, heroes would stagnate. Without heroes, villains would be running the world. Heroes have morals. Villains have work ethic.