Jean Grey: Marvel Girl, Phoenix Appreciation 2019

[Agni]

Im confused about what your actual opinions are of Jean. Do you think she was wrong for what she did? Do you not think she was justified?

I like jean. but the act in question feels contrived and out of character for her IMO. mind control does not seem like a jean thing.
My opinion depends on whether nova had a inability to feel empathy or just did not feel it.
If nova had the capacity for empathy and yet jean forced those emotions on her then i feel Jean was wrong in doing so.

[Agni]

Whether those actions were justified or not is however a different matter.
One that depends on the extent for the crimes that nova committed. I am not really familiar with the details of nova's history and crimes.
Like someone mentioned that she was responsible for the death of 16 millions people. Taking an act like that in account makes Jean.s actions more justifiable.

[Narasinha]

I get the point u are trying to make. But that hinges on the fact that Nova indeed was physically lacking the ability to feel empathy.
If it was that "she just didn't care about others" and not that "she couldn't care about others" then what jean did does not stand.

I quote X-Men Red: "Every time our minds touched, I felt something. There was an integral piece of you missing. We've given you what you were lacking."

That pretty much answer your question: It's not that Nova didn't cared about others. She couldn't care.

(By the way, empathy is not about caring. It's about being able to understand and be aware of other's people feeling. You can have empathy and still not give a damn about them. But, for example, at least if you are hurting them, you understand "emotionally" and not just "intellectually" that you are doing them harm. Which may make things harder)

[Narasinha]

One that depends on the extent for the crimes that nova committed. I am not really familiar with the details of nova's history and crimes.
Like someone mentioned that she was responsible for the death of 16 millions people. Taking an act like that in account makes Jean.s actions more justifiable.

First, Nova isn't human. It's a parasitic astral life form that created itself a body by leeching on the embryo that would become Xavier.
Second, whatever her past crimes (she did killed 16 millions people when she used Sentinels to destroy Genosha), she was about to blow-up a nuclear powered helicarrier and kill all the people around. Preventing her to do that was probably a good idea (even if we missed an opportunity to get rid of most of the Avengers. Oups, sorry... )

[Agni]

I quote X-Men Red: "Every time our minds touched, I felt something. There was an integral piece of you missing. We've given you what you were lacking."

That pretty much answer your question: It's not that Nova didn't cared about others. She couldn't care.

(By the way, empathy is not about caring. It's about being able to understand and be aware of other's people feeling. You can have empathy and still not give a damn about them)

I know what empathy is.
Thanks for the quote from Red. I must have missed it.
It acts as a testament for Jeans compassion and telepathic ability to be able to figure this out given that no-one else was able to spot this in nova before.

[Del torro]

Who really cares really.
So they kill Cassandra Nova, and she builds another body and they kill her again and she later builds another body again and it goes on and on and on. It's interesting that they tried giving her empathy (since we know that reformation works as shown with Ernst and here comes tomorrow)

Though to be honest, I wish it ended with a psychic duel and Jean leaving her catatonic or brain dead

[mogwen]

Who really cares really.
So they kill Cassandra Nova, and she builds another body and they kill her again and she later builds another body again and it goes on and on and on. It's interesting that they tried giving her empathy (since we know that reformation works as shown with Ernst and here comes tomorrow)

Though to be honest, I wish it ended with a psychic duel and Jean leaving her catatonic or brain dead

I think it's the core of the X6Men Red run. Trying to find another way. Jean could have fought her physically or psychically and I think she would have won, but she wasn't there for this!
In fact, for me, Cassandra Nova didn't even mattered, Jean was decided to make a point and I think she wanted to make it in front of the Superhero community.
What she did with Cassandra Nova was to make a political statement. "We have to find another way out of the cycle of violence, stop the infighting among ourselves". In Taylor's run it illustrates the divisions in the american population but it also adresses the Civil war, AVX, IVX whatever VX of those last years.
And what is her solution?
She could have taken on Cassandra Nova physically or psychically but she bested her with something Nova had no defenses for: feelings.
In a way I kind of think Jean used Cassandra Nova as a way to reassert her standing in the Superhero community and prononce a political agenda. Her agenda is the simplest in the world, it's one word.
Empathy.
And I wish there had been a scene with Emma watching TV and Jean's speech at the U.N., I would have loved to see her reaction!

[ariwl1]

I think the never-ending cycle with Nova is likely apt. She was a serious threat and to my knowledge has never been absolved of all her crimes in Morrison's run, so she had to be dealt with one way or another. Now...the concept of what Nova is (a Mummudrai), is pretty bizarre and approaching metaphysical. Essentially, Nova should never have been born but because Charles was that powerful of a mutant she was. She's supposed to be the anti-Charles Xavier, his total opposite, so who knows? Maybe she was born completely lacking the ability to empathize. If Jean hadn't given her that capacity she would have continued her vendetta against mutants and was clearly too effective at it to just let slip away.

I'd be very curious to hear what Morrison thinks about Red's Nova.

[spirit2011]

I think the never-ending cycle with Nova is likely apt. She was a serious threat and to my knowledge has never been absolved of all her crimes in Morrison's run, so she had to be dealt with one way or another. Now...the concept of what Nova is (a Mummudrai), is pretty bizarre and approaching metaphysical. Essentially, Nova should never have been born but because Charles was that powerful of a mutant she was. She's supposed to be the anti-Charles Xavier, his total opposite, so who knows? Maybe she was born completely lacking the ability to empathize. If Jean hadn't given her that capacity she would have continued her vendetta against mutants and was clearly too effective at it to just let slip away.

I'd be very curious to hear what Morrison thinks about Red's Nova.

That is my thought on it: Jean gave her empathy because it would be the better way to stop Cassandra from being reborn and commit mass murder again.

on here comes tomorrow future Cassandra is a good person

[Phoenixx9]

That is my thought on it: Jean gave her empathy because it would be the better way to stop Cassandra from being reborn and commit mass murder again.

on here comes tomorrow future Cassandra is a good person

Then maybe in some weird, odd and retconned continuity, Jean's actions here, with Empathy, is what started Cassandra on the path of goodness she later showed in Here Comes Tomorrow.

[WhiteQueenEmmaFrost]

I know what empathy is.
Thanks for the quote from Red. I must have missed it.
It acts as a testament for Jeans compassion and telepathic ability to be able to figure this out given that no-one else was able to spot this in nova before.

This was a good moment,....until they made her do it again with Xman. They took a good character moment and made it a cheap tactic.

[PhoenixStudies]

This was a good moment,....until they made her do it again with Xman. They took a good character moment and made it a cheap tactic.

It is her empathy strike™ attack.

[mike7171]

Well, imagine someone who's born without legs. All his life, he's been hindered by thing, as such he has developed hate for folks who has legs. Then a doctor comes in and says, i think you need a new perspective of the world around you, i will give you legs so you experience the same mobility as most people and appreciate the world around you.

Nova was born without empathy, so she never knew what it meant as such her life has been all about destroying people's lives without a second thought. Then Jean comes along and says, i give you empathy so you feel what others people feel and not be all destructive. Does her evil side go away? No. Does that change how she views mutant kind and appreciate them more? Maybe. Does that help her see things in a different perspective, absolutely. Jean was not intrusive, she just filled what was lacking, Nova still has the free will to decide to stick to her evil ways or not.

What Jean did was humane and with compassion, intrusive maybe not, remember she's a mummudrai, not your normal human. So she's more resilient.

I am just happy that Jean being defeated by Nova on the last issue was a setup, and that Jean made it look that way to make her plan work. Gosh, I miss X-Men Red already.

I am probably one of the minority who was not satisfied with the Disassembled run, when it comes to Jean. I wanted to see more Jean action. It probably woud've been nice to see Jean and Apocalypse exchange blows more, with more visuals/aura, not just Apocalypse looking like he's being thrown around with in invisible force.

[Havok83]

You aren’t in
The minority. Jean was featured a lot but they didn’t write her favorably. She was ineffective as many ways as leader and her power feats were largely unimpressive

[WhiteQueenEmmaFrost]

It is her empathy strike™ attack.

X-men Red: Jean used Empathy...it was super effective

A0X: Jean used Empathy....psychic attacks don't work on other psychics

"yea but"

Xoffice: PSYCHIC ATTACKS DONT WORK ON OTHER PSYCHICS