Jean Grey: Marvel Girl, Phoenix Appreciation 2019

[PsychoEFrost]

on the contrary, we come from a decade or more of everything being morally ambiguous, it produces the same cheap drama.

Look at the justice league, they are all heroes and they have so many epic stories. there are a lot of interesting things to do without everything being derailed on cheap moral debates that go nowhere because at the end of the day the x-men end up doing the right/heroic thing anyway.

The major difference is that mutants are constantly on the verge of annihilation. The X-Men trying to be the peaceful heroic types while those stories are being told comes off as them not being aware of the reality they're in. You can't talk down a Sentinel. You can't just arrest the Purifiers or the Reavers. The only way the X-Men can afford to just be pacifistic heroes is if mutantkind isn't on the brink anymore.

[phoenixzero23]

The major difference is that mutants are constantly on the verge of annihilation. The X-Men trying to be the peaceful heroic types while those stories are being told comes off as them not being aware of the reality they're in. You can't talk down a Sentinel. You can't just arrest the Purifiers or the Reavers. The only way the X-Men can afford to just be pacifistic heroes is if mutantkind isn't on the brink anymore.

Good point. But I just don't think that should always be the direction of the fanchice. From time to time it could work but not always and there are also teams like X-force that could take care of that.

I just feel that there should be a place for inspiring heroism too

[spirit2011]

The major difference is that mutants are constantly on the verge of annihilation. The X-Men trying to be the peaceful heroic types while those stories are being told comes off as them not being aware of the reality they're in. You can't talk down a Sentinel. You can't just arrest the Purifiers or the Reavers. The only way the X-Men can afford to just be pacifistic heroes is if mutantkind isn't on the brink anymore.

15 years on the brink of extermination, it is time for new stories

[Omega Alpha]

15 years on the brink of extermination, it is time for new stories

True, but seemingly that's what Hickman will do.

[jmc247]

Exactly. And this is why this approach by JDW that "all the X-men have to be heroes" and that characters like Emma should be away from the X-men is UTTERLY stupid. If all the X-men think the same way and have the same views on morality, there's no conflict but romantic or artificial non-sense.

And the reason it's nostalgia influenced because the X-men under Claremont were not that way- you had Wolverine always being an anti-hero and a killer, Storm and Psylocke doing very shady stuff (not to mention Charles), many of the X-men and X-factor members killing in the Mutant Massacre, the X-men allowing the world to think they have been killed (a trick Xavier did himself in the 60's), etc.

Exactly. Certain characters and factions of the X-Men should stand for the highest ideals of super heroes and Xavier and Jean as his greatest student should represent that. But, the X-Men should be a big tent with not all factions agreeing.

Things did become unbalanced for many years though with the only legitimate voice on mutant issues being Scott, Emma and Magneto. The short attempts to create a strong secondary X-Men block were aborted and didn't work anyway as Wolverine was the last figure that works in a X-Men don't kill role.

But, I will say the solution isn't to unbalance things the other way. The last Uncanny X-Men #1-10 sucked in no small part because there was no philosophical divide, there was one insane mutant and a couple other mind controlled mutants and the X-Men as pure as driven snow heroes. Which was as boring as watching paint dry. No relationships on the X-Men were developed and nothing really happened that matters even between established relationships.

I will say to the fans of X-Men Red as a comic series that Jean wasn't representing the best ideals of super heroes there. Mutant nationalism is not the highest ideal. Jean got her own mutants must survive using some less then heroic methods stories and her fans though not all were by in large happy with it.

A whole bunch of X-Men do work great as the highest ideals of super heroes representatives, but some of them much the opposite and it actually feeds their relationships and the story when they aren't all in alignment.

[Portsian]

I like JDW and i like the heroes should be heroes thing. I'm so sick of antiheroes and villains. It is worse when a hero turns into those edgelords like they did with Xavier and Cyclops.
that is not deep or complex, it is cheap. True heroism is inspiring and entertaining.
The X-men have lived through so much angst and drama that sometimes people forget they ae superheroes

Which is why Jean is breath of fresh air. I sometims wonder if she hadnt been dead such a kong time, the horrirs they would have done to her characterisation.

[Portsian]

Exactly. Certain characters and factions of the X-Men should stand for the highest ideals of super heroes and Xavier and Jean as his greatest student should represent that. But, the X-Men should be a big tent with not all factions agreeing.

Things did become unbalanced for many years though with the only legitimate voice on mutant issues being Scott, Emma and Magneto. The short attempts to create a strong secondary X-Men block were aborted and didn't work anyway as Wolverine was the last figure that works in a X-Men don't kill role.

But, I will say the solution isn't to unbalance things the other way. The last Uncanny X-Men #1-10 sucked in no small part because there was no philosophical divide, there was one insane mutant and a couple other mind controlled mutants and the X-Men as pure as driven snow heroes. Which was as boring as watching paint dry. No relationships on the X-Men were developed and nothing really happened that matters even between established relationships.

I will say to the fans of X-Men Red as a comic series that Jean wasn't representing the best ideals of super heroes there. Mutant nationalism is not the highest ideal. Jean got her own mutants must survive using some less then heroic methods stories and her fans though not all were by in large happy with it.

A whole bunch of X-Men do work great as the highest ideals of super heroes representatives, but some of them much the opposite and it actually feeds their relationships and the story when they aren't all in alignment.

I kind of agree, though disagree what you say about Jean. The days of high heroism is over, i dont want the mutants to be Cap America etc. Mutants are still an oppressed minority, and us oppressed minorities have “anger issues” that we dont akways deal in the best way. We all have different ideas kf what heroism means, based on our own vakues. Some saw Malcolm X as more of a hero than Martin Luther King, depending on your own experiences, and many mainstream white people at the time saw neither as heroes because they rocked the status quo boat. Heroism is subjective, or rather heroic behaviours are subjective, less so supposed heroic ideals.

[darewithpeace]

i love this, she is so beautiful

[PsychoEFrost]

I kind of agree, though disagree what you say about Jean. The days of high heroism is over, i dont want the mutants to be Cap America etc. Mutants are still an oppressed minority, and us oppressed minorities have “anger issues” that we dont akways deal in the best way. We all have different ideas kf what heroism means, based on our own vakues. Some saw Malcolm X as more of a hero than Martin Luther King, depending on your own experiences, and many mainstream white people at the time saw neither as heroes because they rocked the status quo boat. Heroism is subjective, or rather heroic behaviours are subjective, less so supposed heroic ideals.

Exactly this.

[Portsian]

That outfit could give serious camel toe!

[PwrdOn]

I kind of agree, though disagree what you say about Jean. The days of high heroism is over, i dont want the mutants to be Cap America etc. Mutants are still an oppressed minority, and us oppressed minorities have “anger issues” that we dont akways deal in the best way. We all have different ideas kf what heroism means, based on our own vakues. Some saw Malcolm X as more of a hero than Martin Luther King, depending on your own experiences, and many mainstream white people at the time saw neither as heroes because they rocked the status quo boat. Heroism is subjective, or rather heroic behaviours are subjective, less so supposed heroic ideals.

Malcolm X's approach might have been more emotionally satisfying than MLK's, but it was pretty much completely ineffective because militant nationalism isn't really going to work when your enemy is so much stronger than you are. Every time that mutants try to assert themselves violently, they always get smacked down hard because the story demands that they remain underdogs, it would feel all sorts of wrong to have mutants lording over humans, especially since the more prominent ones look more like genetically engineered Aryan supermen than freaks and outcasts.

[5cents]

i love this, she is so beautiful

The creators did a good job.

[MarvelMaster616]

i love this, she is so beautiful

Great image! Not my favorite costume for Jean, but it still looks wonderful here.

[juan678]

[phoenixzero23]

Beautiful, I want Jean to be a teacher.

i love this, she is so beautiful

This costume is underrated and amazing!