Jean Grey: Marvel Girl, Phoenix Appreciation 2019

[spirit2011]

I'm sorry but humans have a lot of flaws and relationships are super hard. I know some few luck out, but most relationships take a ton of work and as much as you want you can't control another person. Claremont wrote characters with a ton of flaws as well and so did other writers. I mean just look at Scott's history. Morrison did add some soapy drama but all good serials have soapy drama. Claremont turned the X-men into a soap opera.

I don't know about the rest of you but I'm constantly shocked at my place of work about who is sleeping/cheating with whom. I always thought people went to work to.. well work. So maybe I'm jaded, but it is not surprising that Scott had a psychic affair with Emma. I know some fans will always hate it but it did make both Scott, Jean, and Emma seem more realistic and more human.

one thing is have flaws and other is being a bsolute *******, that was what Morriosn did to Scott, while Jean became desinterested and less compassionate.
sure on the workplace there was a lot of hook up, some adultery and some people being loyal too. There was a guy that a friend of mine tried to hook up but he said he was married and loyal to his wife. There was lot of guys going after her. Not everyone is a cheater.
being a cheater doesn't make anyone more human. everyone is freakin human

Morrison's Jean will probably always be my favorite and I am thankful such a talented writer got to add to her story. Claremont, and I don't mean any disrespect is a good writer too especially in his early run. My favorite versions of Jean are Morrison, Claremont, and now Tom Taylor. I hope Hickman does a good Jean (and the writer of X-force who I forget at the moment).

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everyone have their taste
Jean from Morrison is not the worse but also not in the best. For me simonson, claremont and taylor are above. Looking at his teen jean Bunn could be a great adult Jean writer

Maybe I didn't understand well but Claremont was talking and made talking a lot. Probably more than it's usual in comics. In US comics anyway. In European comics, during Claremont's Golden Age, a lot of text wasn't unusual.

Saying he didn't write comic books is a bit like saying blockbusters aren't movies.

Perez had a lot of talking. it was pretty normal for 80s

[Zelena]

Here Comes Tomorrow was a great Phoenix/Jean story. I can't describe how much I loved the panels where she is in White Phoenix mode - holding the badly wounded orphan universe in her hands. But I loved all the other elements of the story as well. I thought Here Comes Tomorrow was better than Dark Phoenix Saga.. mostly because Morrison is a superior writer to Claremont. I do love both stories. In fact Here Comes Tomorrow was only a chapter in Morrison's Phoenix/Jean story (the last chapter). Jean had a great role in Morrison's run and she did not act robotic like you said earlier. Look at E is for extinction, Germ Free Generation, Imperial, and the issue where she talks to Dust, etc. Jean had her personality, her heart, but I know some will never appreciate anything about the run because Jean dies at the end and Morrison messed with Scott and Jean's relationship. Morrison made their relationship more human and less Disney-esque one true love, OTP stuff.

Phoenix Endsong was a mess but had at least some good moments. Phoenix Resurrection was a mess. I don't like how Rosenberg made the Phoenix a stalkerish entity that was manipulative/abusive with Jean. In Morrison's run Jean accepted her growing powers and her role as a Phoenix (or that's how I took it). Jean shouldn't have to deny who she is because it makes others uncomfortable.

I don't know if Jean will be Phoenix again or if that ship has sailed. I love Jean as both plain Jean and Phoenix-Jean so I'm good either way. I like that Jean is powerful with or without Phoenix. I also hate that fans seem to think Phoenix takes away from Jean when we don't act that way towards any other character and the Phoenix. Rachel was never contested as being powerful because she had or was amped by the Phoenix.

I see the Phoenix as a natural evolution for Jean and Rachel. Claremont saw it that way, but of course other writers had other ideas.

When I started reading X-men comics, Jean was Phoenix… and, later, when I re-started reading X-men comics, Rachel was Phoenix. I don't know either of them without. The problem with powerful mutants is that they don't really seem to need the other and I like teamwork, the stories are more compelling.

[phoenixzero23]

I don't think he has ever talked about her.

I don't remember him talking about anybody else besides Wolverine, Dani, Magik and Kitty

[PsychoEFrost]

The more I re-read the O5 stuff, the more I dislike the entire concept. Warren, Bobby, and Hank basically don't exist. Scott is much much MUCH worse in literally every area. He is as unlikable as a deep-sea angler fish in an SS Uniform.

But Jeen bugs me a lot. Mostly because she is shown to be much stronger, much more effective, and much more battlefield competent then Jean ever was. She has no flaws to speak of, and shows zero inexperience or anything that would lead you to believe she's a 16-year old with almost no experience in battle. The first day she's there she's instantly the most powerful and effective person on the X-Men.

[spirit2011]

Clairemont is pure nostalgia. He is the worst culprit of "show don't tell" in the history of comic books. He didn't write comic books. He wrote novels that occasionally had comic images in them. And while the stories themselves were fine, his style doesn't really hold up over time and his attempts in the 2000s proved that.

His style is dated but Marvel still pays him to write like 20 pages of story every 2 years. Dude still has his value
Still a better stylke and better accomplishment on his peak than Morrison.

Morrison's Jean was the best she has ever been written, hands down. It was the only run where she balanced being compassionate and kind with being powerful and effective in her job. Remove Joe Quesada from the equation, and you have a near flawless run for Jean. Instead, we get Quesada wanting the relationships changed because he self-inserts at Scott, and that's where the problems come in.

I really don't get all the love for Morrison's Jean. She is very on the clouds and isnt compassionate enough.
Even without Quesada eveything would happen the same, because Scott was also the stand in for Morrison

When I started reading X-men comics, Jean was Phoenix… and, later, when I re-started reading X-men comics, Rachel was Phoenix. I don't know either of them without. The problem with powerful mutants is that they don't really seem to need the other and I like teamwork, the stories are more compelling.

Almost everyone was Phoenix, even if for a day or 15 minutes

[MechaJeanix]

one thing is have flaws and other is being a bsolute *******, that was what Morriosn did to Scott, while Jean became desinterested and less compassionate.
sure on the workplace there was a lot of hook up, some adultery and some people being loyal too. There was a guy that a friend of mine tried to hook up but he said he was married and loyal to his wife. There was lot of guys going after her. Not everyone is a cheater.
being a cheater doesn't make anyone more human. everyone is freakin human


everyone have their taste
Jean from Morrison is not the worse but also not in the best. For me simonson, claremont and taylor are above. Looking at his teen jean Bunn could be a great adult Jean writer




Perez had a lot of talking. it was pretty normal for 80s

Yes it was bad that Jean got cheated on by Scott, and we are supposed to view it as not a good thing. But it does make them relatable because so many people do experience the same things (well not a psychic affair but you get my drift). Jean and Scott went through something that many couples do. That makes them relatable and thus makes them feel more human since they are fictional characters. Being honorable, good, and all this other stuff is also human, but humans tend to do flaws, bad things, and "sin" a lot better than we do being perfect.

A perfect couple tends to trend towards boring. Morrison did spice things up between both characters. It would take a lot for me to say that someone else's version of Jean is better than Morrison. For starters Morrison put Jean and the Phoenix back together. Before Morrison's run many fans on all the forums would cry that Jean had never been the Phoenix or had any real connection to it (or that Rachel was the one true Phoenix). I think Morrison further pushed the idea that Jean and the Phoenix were connected and had an intimate connection. He also wrote her as strong, caring, compassionate, powerful, and gave her the right amount of edge. His version was the perfect balance of 90's Jean and Phoenix.

What I really loved about Morrison's run is that it was cinematic and I love his dialogue. Each character had a distinct voice even though they all talked a bit in Morrison-isms. Hickman is similar in that respect but so far I prefer Morrison's dialogue. I also liked that Morrison didn't over use exposition and characters were defined by their actions and how others viewed them (you know like in real life - I am who I am in part due to how I think you think I am).

I've always been sad that Whedon didn't get to write Jean. I wanted Jean to be written by all of the top talent. Mike Carey I think would have done great with her. He wanted to use Jean, but if you all recall after Phoenix Endsong he made a comment that Jean was unusable (or something to that effect) which I've always wondered about. I guess it is because Endsong left her in a bizarre place (and one that was later really ignored).

Bendis and Hopeless did great with Teen Jean. Both understood her and both made her important. Since Adult Jean has been back she feels more like a background character (outside of X-men Red where she shined). Jean was in Disassembled but her powers mostly didn't work. Jean was in the background and reduced to the girlfriend role in Age of X-man. I love House of X so far, but yet Jean is in the den mother role in House of X #1. I wonder if Jean and Banshee had been teaching /caring for the students?

[phoenixzero23]

The more I re-read the O5 stuff, the more I dislike the entire concept. Warren, Bobby, and Hank basically don't exist. Scott is much much MUCH worse in literally every area. He is as unlikable as a deep-sea angler fish in an SS Uniform.

But Jeen bugs me a lot. Mostly because she is shown to be much stronger, much more effective, and much more battlefield competent then Jean ever was. She has no flaws to speak of, and shows zero inexperience or anything that would lead you to believe she's a 16-year old with almost no experience in battle. The first day she's there she's instantly the most powerful and effective person on the X-Men.

I loved Jeen, she was the one who introduced me to the character, That being said, I feel the whole time displaced O5 was an excuse to bring her back and she was clearly the focus from the start. That could have carried some bad aspects but it was also super interesting. Jeen came on a time were Jean was dead and many thought it was going to be that way forever, she kinda derserved some of that spotlight and I know she acted a little different than what our Jean would have, but it was because she saw all her life and her death, she was going to try to be different in some aspects.
Warren, Bobby and Hank were sadly little more than accessories becuase the O5 were a package deal. I liked some aspects of Tyke but i know some disliked him.

[MechaJeanix]

The more I re-read the O5 stuff, the more I dislike the entire concept. Warren, Bobby, and Hank basically don't exist. Scott is much much MUCH worse in literally every area. He is as unlikable as a deep-sea angler fish in an SS Uniform.

But Jeen bugs me a lot. Mostly because she is shown to be much stronger, much more effective, and much more battlefield competent then Jean ever was. She has no flaws to speak of, and shows zero inexperience or anything that would lead you to believe she's a 16-year old with almost no experience in battle. The first day she's there she's instantly the most powerful and effective person on the X-Men.

You have a point, but I liked that Jean was the standout character. She was stronger than she had been before and that was acknowledged on numerous occasions. I liked Jean taking charge and being the leader and finding new things about her powers. I wish these changed would stick but I don't think they are. I don't mind not being a leader so much, but I wish Teen Jean had more of an impact on adult Jean.

.

[phoenixzero23]

They didn't need to be perfect but also there was no need to make their relationship trash. Scott of all people was someone who loved Jean a lot and now he and their relationship are seen as bad, that is just not fair.

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I love their relationship and I hate that the only thing some people remember about it was that mess, instead of the epic and long love story they had.

again there were ways to "humanize" or even end their marriage without that horrible mess, without dessecrating the characters and relationship legacy.

[spirit2011]

I loved Jeen, she was the one who introduced me to the character, That being said, I feel the whole time displaced O5 was an excuse to bring her back and she was clearly the focus from the start. That could have carried some bad aspects but it was also super interesting. Jeen came on a time were Jean was dead and many thought it was going to be that way forever, she kinda derserved some of that spotlight and I know she acted a little different than what our Jean would have, but it was because she saw all her life and her death, she was going to try to be different in some aspects.
Warren, Bobby and Hank were sadly little more than accessories becuase the O5 were a package deal. I liked some aspects of Tyke but i know some disliked him.

I liked Tyke a lot more than Scott.

the teen O5 was just the way marvel let bendis bring back Jean but not the true Jean. It was a bad idea from editorial and Bendis went along with that

[PsychoEFrost]

I liked Tyke a lot more than Scott.

the teen O5 was just the way marvel let bendis bring back Jean but not the true Jean. It was a bad idea from editorial and Bendis went along with that

Well, you hate Scott, so it is absolutely zero surprise you like Tyke. Considering Tyke was Scott with all of his negative attributes enhanced ten fold and all of his positive attributes removed.

Tyke is to Scott what the 90s animated series was to Jean if you removed the entire Phoenix Saga from the 90s series.

[phoenixzero23]

Tyke is to Scott what the 90s animated series was to Jean if you removed the entire Phoenix Saga from the 90s series.

I know he wasn't perfect but i think there was something interesting on tyke's story.

It is like when people think about what would they do different if they were younger or on a different phase of their lifes, except that for tyke it was real and he saw his future, he learned from it, somethings he liked some others not.
Again he was not perfect but the constrast between tyke and cyke was interesting and showed how much had the character changed over the years.

[spirit2011]

Yes it was bad that Jean got cheated on by Scott, and we are supposed to view it as not a good thing. But it does make them relatable because so many people do experience the same things (well not a psychic affair but you get my drift). Jean and Scott went through something that many couples do. That makes them relatable and thus makes them feel more human since they are fictional characters. Being honorable, good, and all this other stuff is also human, but humans tend to do flaws, bad things, and "sin" a lot better than we do being perfect.

morrison wrote it to not be cheating at all, it wasn't mean to be a bad thing at all. The readers that saw it as bad thing, but it wasn't Morrison intention
no cheating doesn't make it anymore relatable than a stable relationship.

A perfect couple tends to trend towards boring. Morrison did spice things up between both characters. It would take a lot for me to say that someone else's version of Jean is better than Morrison. For starters Morrison put Jean and the Phoenix back together. Before Morrison's run many fans on all the forums would cry that Jean had never been the Phoenix or had any real connection to it (or that Rachel was the one true Phoenix). I think Morrison further pushed the idea that Jean and the Phoenix were connected and had an intimate connection. He also wrote her as strong, caring, compassionate, powerful, and gave her the right amount of edge. His version was the perfect balance of 90's Jean and Phoenix.

if a couple is boring it is because writers are bad. There isn't perfect couples at all, Scott and Jean had a fair share of problems.
She wasn't that caring or compassionate on Morrison run. it was obvious that she was ascending to goodhood and become not caring about mortal problem.
Another **** take on Phoenix

What I really loved about Morrison's run is that it was cinematic and I love his dialogue. Each character had a distinct voice even though they all talked a bit in Morrison-isms. Hickman is similar in that respect but so far I prefer Morrison's dialogue. I also liked that Morrison didn't over use exposition and characters were defined by their actions and how others viewed them (you know like in real life - I am who I am in part due to how I think you think I am).

with exception of Emma and Wolverine, everybody sounded the same cold character

I've always been sad that Whedon didn't get to write Jean. I wanted Jean to be written by all of the top talent. Mike Carey I think would have done great with her. He wanted to use Jean, but if you all recall after Phoenix Endsong he made a comment that Jean was unusable (or something to that effect) which I've always wondered about. I guess it is because Endsong left her in a bizarre place (and one that was later really ignored).

Whedon hated jean, iDK why bother.
I heard about Carey wanting to use Jean, but then he saying that he didn't wanted to screw over Morrison story

Bendis and Hopeless did great with Teen Jean. Both understood her and both made her important. Since Adult Jean has been back she feels more like a background character (outside of X-men Red where she shined). Jean was in Disassembled but her powers mostly didn't work. Jean was in the background and reduced to the girlfriend role in Age of X-man. I love House of X so far, but yet Jean is in the den mother role in House of X #1. I wonder if Jean and Banshee had been teaching /caring for the students?

Bendis yes, Hopeless was pretty bad. Now Bunn did better than those two, he deserves more consideration.
It was expected that Jean would be background after Scott coming back and I don't expect any good from Hickman

[PsychoEFrost]

I know he wasn't perfect but i think there was something interesting on tyke's story.

It is like when people think about what would they do different if they were younger or on a different phase of their lifes, except that for tyke it was real and he saw his future, he learned from it, somethings he liked some others not.
Again he was not perfect but the constrast between tyke and cyke was interesting and showed how much had the character changed over the years.

I disagree. From the moment he arrived til IvX, Tyke existed solely to remind the audience how EVIL and HORRIBLE and HITLER Cyclops was. All of his intelligence? Gone. All of his tactical planning? Non-existent. Skill-wise, he was less of a factor on the battlefield than Warren. He was there to remind the audience, nothing more. He was a plot device wearing another character's skin, and with all the subtlety of Schism-era Jason Aaron.

[PsychoEFrost]

morrison wrote it to not be cheating at all, it wasn't mean to be a bad thing at all. The readers that saw it as bad thing, but it wasn't Morrison intention
no cheating doesn't make it anymore relatable than a stable relationship.


if a couple is boring it is because writers are bad. There isn't perfect couples at all, Scott and Jean had a fair share of problems.
She wasn't that caring or compassionate on Morrison run. it was obvious that she was ascending to goodhood and become not caring about mortal problem.
Another **** take on Phoenix


with exception of Emma and Wolverine, everybody sounded the same cold character


Whedon hated jean, iDK why bother.
I heard about Carey wanting to use Jean, but then he saying that he didn't wanted to screw over Morrison story


Bendis yes, Hopeless was pretty bad. Now Bunn did better than those two, he deserves more consideration.
It was expected that Jean would be background after Scott coming back and I don't expect any good from Hickman

She's on two books front and center, leading both of them, and even has her love-trianage with Wolverine in X-Factor going. Meanwhile Scott is a background character on one book, and Emma is a cartoonishly evil villain who will never show up in her book. What more did you want?