Jean Grey: Marvel Girl, Phoenix Appreciation 2019

[Snoop Dogg]

Which podcast # is this on?

Hopeless is very attractive and it's friggin' disgusting!!!

[phoenixzero23]

Hopeless is very attractive and it's friggin' disgusting!!!

It's a miracle anything gets done. so much incoordination

[PsychoEFrost]

At least Uncanny X-Men 10 explains how X-Man was able to overpower Jean during this event even though she's basically supposed to be the most powerful telepath in the world. spoilers:

X-Man was using a Celestial Life Seed to increase his powers. They were introduced years ago in the Dark Angel Saga in Uncanny X-Force. See this link if you're not familiar with it.

end of spoilers

In fairness, at full power (which Nate is supposed to be at), he's significantly more powerful than just about everyone. Hence why they've had to nerf him several times.

[FUBAR007]

It's a miracle anything gets done. so much incoordination

That's about par for the course from what I've been told.

The Marvel Bullpen has been slimmed down considerably so everything is being coordinated via e-mail. Writers and artists are freelancers* scattered around the globe. The editorial staff is concentrated in the New York office, but the working conditions are purportedly meh** and, below the senior level, the pay is bad. Assistant editors, who do a lot of the grunt work, are typically hired directly out of college and so tend to have minimal experience. On top of that, editorial is sandwiched between managing the creative talent and meeting the commercial demands of the marketing department and Marvel corporate. Artist discipline--i.e. meeting deadlines, producing consistently, communicating with the rest of the creative team--has been a persistent problem going back to the late 1980s. As it is, managing creative talent is inherently a cat-herding exercise as professional writers and artists tend not to be obedient 9-to-5 types.

And, of course, there's all the standard personality conflicts, groupthink, and office politics/power play crap that goes on in any company.

In short, comics is a labor of love. Those who do it are typically underpaid, under-resourced with strong personalities and varying degrees and types of professional experience who work in less-than-ideal conditions and have to endure a lot of bullshit.

*As in work-for-hire, employed on a contract basis. Historically, Marvel paid its talent via monthly vouchers based on a per-page rate. I don't know if that's still the case. Anyway, they're not salaried or paid by the hour, and they don't get benefits, either. (For those of you outside the U.S., government health benefits are very limited except for the elderly so most of us have to buy health care in the private market using insurance provided as a benefit by our employers. There is no U.S. equivalent to the British NHS.)

Editorial staff do draw a steady income, but it's low, and New York City is an extremely expensive place to live. Several years ago, I considered a career change and looked into applying for an editor position at Marvel. According to employee comments on Glassdoor, the pay for assistant editors was around $35-38K per year. This is in a city where the going rate on an apartment is $2500+ per month.

**CEO Ike Perlmutter is purportedly a relentless cheapskate. Once again, according to accounts on Glassdoor, a lot of the IT is re-used and out of date, operating budgets are very limited, and even basic office amenities are few.

A comics pro on Twitter once remarked that even the worst comic you've ever read required an insane amount of effort and hassle. Given the context in which comics are produced, I don't doubt that statement at all.

[PsychoEFrost]

That's about par for the course from what I've been told.

The Marvel Bullpen has been slimmed down considerably so everything is being coordinated via e-mail. Writers and artists are freelancers* scattered around the globe. The editorial staff is concentrated in the New York office, but the working conditions are purportedly meh** and, below the senior level, the pay is bad. Assistant editors, who do a lot of the grunt work, are typically hired directly out of college and so tend to have minimal experience. On top of that, editorial is sandwiched between managing the creative talent and meeting the commercial demands of the marketing department and Marvel corporate. Artist discipline--i.e. meeting deadlines, producing consistently, communicating with the rest of the creative team--has been a persistent problem going back to the late 1980s. As it is, managing creative talent is inherently a cat-herding exercise as professional writers and artists tend not to be obedient 9-to-5 types.

And, of course, there's all the standard personality conflicts, groupthink, and office politics/power play crap that goes on in any company.

In short, comics is a labor of love. Those who do it are typically underpaid, under-resourced with strong personalities and varying degrees and types of professional experience who work in less-than-ideal conditions and have to endure a lot of bullshit.

*As in work-for-hire, employed on a contract basis. Historically, Marvel paid its talent via monthly vouchers based on a per-page rate. I don't know if that's still the case. Anyway, they're not salaried or paid by the hour, and they don't get benefits, either. (For those of you outside the U.S., government health benefits are very limited except for the elderly so most of us have to buy health care in the private market using insurance provided as a benefit by our employers. There is no U.S. equivalent to the British NHS.)

Editorial staff do draw a steady income, but it's low, and New York City is an extremely expensive place to live. Several years ago, I considered a career change and looked into applying for an editor position at Marvel. According to employee comments on Glassdoor, the pay for assistant editors was around $35-38K per year. This is in a city where the going rate on an apartment is $2500+ per month.

**CEO Ike Perlmutter is purportedly a relentless cheapskate. Once again, according to accounts on Glassdoor, a lot of the IT is re-used and out of date, operating budgets are very limited, and even basic office amenities are few.

A comics pro on Twitter once remarked that even the worst comic you've ever read required an insane amount of effort and hassle. Given the context in which comics are produced, I don't doubt that statement at all.

I've heard stories like these as well.

I'm a writer. I write for a living. It's not a lot of pay, it's a lot of effort, and more than a few pieces of hatemail. But that's with only two full editors and my own decisions to guide my pen.

With a massive corporation and everything that goes into it, I imagine this is why many writers/artists are so defensive about their work. They get enough backlash at work with everything that goes into an issue. They sure as **** don't want to hear it from their audience.

[PwrdOn]

That's about par for the course from what I've been told.

The Marvel Bullpen has been slimmed down considerably so everything is being coordinated via e-mail. Writers and artists are freelancers* scattered around the globe. The editorial staff is concentrated in the New York office, but the working conditions are purportedly meh** and, below the senior level, the pay is bad. Assistant editors, who do a lot of the grunt work, are typically hired directly out of college and so tend to have minimal experience. On top of that, editorial is sandwiched between managing the creative talent and meeting the commercial demands of the marketing department and Marvel corporate. Artist discipline--i.e. meeting deadlines, producing consistently, communicating with the rest of the creative team--has been a persistent problem going back to the late 1980s. As it is, managing creative talent is inherently a cat-herding exercise as professional writers and artists tend not to be obedient 9-to-5 types.

And, of course, there's all the standard personality conflicts, groupthink, and office politics/power play crap that goes on in any company.

In short, comics is a labor of love. Those who do it are typically underpaid, under-resourced with strong personalities and varying degrees and types of professional experience who work in less-than-ideal conditions and have to endure a lot of bullshit.

*As in work-for-hire, employed on a contract basis. Historically, Marvel paid its talent via monthly vouchers based on a per-page rate. I don't know if that's still the case. Anyway, they're not salaried or paid by the hour, and they don't get benefits, either. (For those of you outside the U.S., government health benefits are very limited except for the elderly so most of us have to buy health care in the private market using insurance provided as a benefit by our employers. There is no U.S. equivalent to the British NHS.)

Editorial staff do draw a steady income, but it's low, and New York City is an extremely expensive place to live. Several years ago, I considered a career change and looked into applying for an editor position at Marvel. According to employee comments on Glassdoor, the pay for assistant editors was around $35-38K per year. This is in a city where the going rate on an apartment is $2500+ per month.

**CEO Ike Perlmutter is purportedly a relentless cheapskate. Once again, according to accounts on Glassdoor, a lot of the IT is re-used and out of date, operating budgets are very limited, and even basic office amenities are few.

A comics pro on Twitter once remarked that even the worst comic you've ever read required an insane amount of effort and hassle. Given the context in which comics are produced, I don't doubt that statement at all.

Oh cry me a river...

Pretty much everyone has a job which requires a ton of hard work and patience to get through, the only difference is that most of us don't have a following of fanboys to air our grievances out too. The reality is that most comic book creators are second rate talents and their pay reflects that, if they had the chops to write movie scripts or whatever, they would just be doing that instead. I mean, pretty lots of writers working for Marvel and DC have their own creator owned side projects, but few of them make any kind of real splash because, at the end of the day most fans buy comics for their favorite characters and teams, not for particular writers or artists.

And what's more, the blatant unprofessionalism of the comics industry just makes the stories lose that much more luster. Every time I hear about how a beloved storyline was just the result of some writer throwing in a silly in-joke, or trying to get back at someone else by screwing over a particular character, it gets harder and harder to enjoy that story at face value again.

[FUBAR007]

And what's more, the blatant unprofessionalism of the comics industry just makes the stories lose that much more luster. Every time I hear about how a beloved storyline was just the result of some writer throwing in a silly in-joke, or trying to get back at someone else by screwing over a particular character, it gets harder and harder to enjoy that story at face value again.

My point is that the context in which these stories are produced is far from optimal, and that the dysfunction contributes to a lot of the things about contemporary comics that piss us off. In other words, it's a crap system, not just a particular writer or editor out to troll the fans (though that does happen on occasion). All that does not, however, immunize the stories or the creative talent to criticism.

[Snoop Dogg]

The point of that video wasn't to highlight some issue with Marvel Editorial when other offices don't have such problems or to start a weird tangent about how comics are some "lesser medium," the point was to gain more material for my thesis paper that I'll be submitting to God at some point about how Paniccia is Marvel's worst senior editor and it's absurd that they give him oversight over flagship series and entire lines.

[ariwl1]

I'd be curious to know if Marvel's working culture is relatively recent or if it's kinda always been like this. X-Men fans are aware of the many times Claremont butted heads with editorial back in the day, but that's a unique case considering the strong personalities on both sides.

Of course money is often the determining factor, and the market is way different today. In the early days of Marvel publishing through when it was arguably at its strongest, there weren't as many other options for your entertainment dollar to go to. Of particular importance is that comics were both seen as something primarily for kids AND they were priced so kids could actually afford them. I grew up in the last few years when you could still consistently find comics in grocery stores. My dad usually didn't mind buying me one or two whenever we went. They were often only about $1.50ish and he just liked that I was reading something.

But these days comics have niched themselves into a pretty tight corner where it's mainly die-hard adult fans still buying the books (and have the money to pay for them; comics can be an expensive hobby) AND we have creators working on stuff they grew up being fans of. The atmosphere is pretty different even not counting the work culture.

And it'll be fascinating to see how the old school publishers will be doing in 10-20 years since I haven't seen signs that younger readers are coming on board in significant numbers (if I'm wrong please feel free to correct me). From what I can see younger readers are a significant market, but they're mostly reading Manga and considering the Hopeless video about creator vs corporate artistic process it gives some big clues as to why.

[phoenixzero23]

I'd be curious to know if Marvel's working culture is relatively recent or if it's kinda always been like this. X-Men fans are aware of the many times Claremont butted heads with editorial back in the day, but that's a unique case considering the strong personalities on both sides.

Of course money is often the determining factor, and the market is way different today. In the early days of Marvel publishing through when it was arguably at its strongest, there weren't as many other options for your entertainment dollar to go to. Of particular importance is that comics were both seen as something primarily for kids AND they were priced so kids could actually afford them. I grew up in the last few years when you could still consistently find comics in grocery stores. My dad usually didn't mind buying me one or two whenever we went. They were often only about $1.50ish and he just liked that I was reading something.

But these days comics have niched themselves into a pretty tight corner where it's mainly die-hard adult fans still buying the books (and have the money to pay for them; comics can be an expensive hobby) AND we have creators working on stuff they grew up being fans of. The atmosphere is pretty different even not counting the work culture.

And it'll be fascinating to see how the old school publishers will be doing in 10-20 years since I haven't seen signs that younger readers are coming on board in significant numbers (if I'm wrong please feel free to correct me). From what I can see younger readers are a significant market, but they're mostly reading Manga and considering the Hopeless video about creator vs corporate artistic process it gives some big clues as to why.

If the gigantic cinematic popularity of these characters hasn't draw new readers nothing will. I'm curious how long will these comicbooks will last, how much have they left?.
i mean the characters will live on in tv, games, movies but what will happen to the comics once the majority of old customerss that grew with them dies?


Also i don't think all the comic creators are that bad. Many people genuinely grows up wanting to draw or write comics, some even find the passion and do it later in life after doing other things.

[5cents]

Hopeless is very attractive and it's friggin' disgusting!!!

Thank you, didn’t even know they had a Podcast.

[spirit2011]

The point of that video wasn't to highlight some issue with Marvel Editorial when other offices don't have such problems or to start a weird tangent about how comics are some "lesser medium," the point was to gain more material for my thesis paper that I'll be submitting to God at some point about how Paniccia is Marvel's worst senior editor and it's absurd that they give him oversight over flagship series and entire lines.

Paniccia is awful on his job, now he edits the star wars line. At least there is Lucas Film to help with the canon

[ariwl1]

Also i don't think all the comic creators are that bad. Many people genuinely grows up wanting to draw or write comics, some even find the passion and do it later in life after doing other things.

I general don't have issues with the creators. They're definitely the little guy in the situation and as the podcast alludes to their creative freedom is pretty hamstrung.

[WhiteQueenEmmaFrost]

That's about par for the course from what I've been told.

The Marvel Bullpen has been slimmed down considerably so everything is being coordinated via e-mail. Writers and artists are freelancers* scattered around the globe. The editorial staff is concentrated in the New York office, but the working conditions are purportedly meh** and, below the senior level, the pay is bad. Assistant editors, who do a lot of the grunt work, are typically hired directly out of college and so tend to have minimal experience. On top of that, editorial is sandwiched between managing the creative talent and meeting the commercial demands of the marketing department and Marvel corporate. Artist discipline--i.e. meeting deadlines, producing consistently, communicating with the rest of the creative team--has been a persistent problem going back to the late 1980s. As it is, managing creative talent is inherently a cat-herding exercise as professional writers and artists tend not to be obedient 9-to-5 types.

And, of course, there's all the standard personality conflicts, groupthink, and office politics/power play crap that goes on in any company.

In short, comics is a labor of love. Those who do it are typically underpaid, under-resourced with strong personalities and varying degrees and types of professional experience who work in less-than-ideal conditions and have to endure a lot of bullshit.

*As in work-for-hire, employed on a contract basis. Historically, Marvel paid its talent via monthly vouchers based on a per-page rate. I don't know if that's still the case. Anyway, they're not salaried or paid by the hour, and they don't get benefits, either. (For those of you outside the U.S., government health benefits are very limited except for the elderly so most of us have to buy health care in the private market using insurance provided as a benefit by our employers. There is no U.S. equivalent to the British NHS.)

Editorial staff do draw a steady income, but it's low, and New York City is an extremely expensive place to live. Several years ago, I considered a career change and looked into applying for an editor position at Marvel. According to employee comments on Glassdoor, the pay for assistant editors was around $35-38K per year. This is in a city where the going rate on an apartment is $2500+ per month.

**CEO Ike Perlmutter is purportedly a relentless cheapskate. Once again, according to accounts on Glassdoor, a lot of the IT is re-used and out of date, operating budgets are very limited, and even basic office amenities are few.

A comics pro on Twitter once remarked that even the worst comic you've ever read required an insane amount of effort and hassle. Given the context in which comics are produced, I don't doubt that statement at all.

It explains why the quality is so bad, but do the editors NEED to be in NYC? If they can get writers/artists from anywhere why not hire editors that actually want to do the job? It's obvious these are kids fresh out of college (Like Andy Sacks) that don't want to be there and could care less about the brand.

[PhoenixStudies]

It's kinda funny that Jean is believed to be dead yet again.