Jean Grey: Marvel Girl, Phoenix Appreciation 2019

[ariwl1]

Honestly I think at least part of the reason I like or am interested in so many telepathic characters is because it's such a sketchy power. If I were given the choice of having superpowers telepathy would feel like a forbidden fruit: taking it changes your entire world and there's no giving it back.

[Havok83]

Can your mention which issue it happened or some context.
I am not aware of the new x men scene you are refering to.

New X-men 126 after Emma tricks Nova to go into the shapeshifting Stuff



Jean and Xavier are seen teaching Nova who was now a blank slate

Ernst appears later in the series and in Here Comes Tomorrow, its heavily implied that she is Nova, whom shapeshifted (due to Stuff) and was now "reformed" due to Xavier and Jean rehabilitating her.

While not the same as Red, both involved using methods to force Nova's morality to change. She gains a conscience and becomes "good" due to mental or nannite manipulation against her free will

[PsychoEFrost]

New X-men 126 after Emma tricks Nova to go into the shapeshifting Stuff



Jean and Xavier are seen teaching Nova who was now a blank slate

Ernst appears later in the series and in Here Comes Tomorrow, its heavily implied that she is Nova, whom shapeshifted (due to Stuff) and was now "reformed" due to Xavier and Jean rehabilitating her

That is some straight up Black Mirror ****. Holy god.

[Agni]

New X-men 126 after Emma tricks Nova to go into the shapeshifting Stuff



Jean and Xavier are seen teaching Nova who was now a blank slate

Ernst appears later in the series and in Here Comes Tomorrow, its heavily implied that she is Nova, whom shapeshifted (due to Stuff) and was now "reformed" due to Xavier and Jean rehabilitating her.

While not the same as Red, both involved using methods to force Nova's morality to change. She gains a conscience and becomes "good" due to mental or nannite manipulation against her free will

Thanks for the clarification.
Who was it in this scene who made cassandra a blank slate and were they aware that their actions would turn her into a blank slate?

[ariwl1]

Thanks for the clarification.
Who was it in this scene who made cassandra a blank slate and were they aware that their actions would turn her into a blank slate?

It was Emma. I believe there was a Shi'ar soldier who could shapeshift so Emma made it transform to look like Nova's original body and then she tricked Nova (who was on the verge of death at the time) to go into it willingly. Since it wasn't her real body she got trapped inside it or something like that if IIRC. And Emma definitely knew what she was doing. She called Nova a pocket calculator.

[Agni]

It was Emma. I believe there was a Shi'ar soldier who could shapeshift so Emma made it transform to look like Nova's original body and then she tricked Nova (who was on the verge of death at the time) to go into it willingly. Since it wasn't her real body she got trapped inside it or something like that if IIRC. And Emma definitely knew what she was doing.

Thank you kind sir/madam.

So it was EMMA who did the brainwashing in this scenario.
Which makes me question the X-men Red scene again. IMO the Red scene does not seem in-character for her.
Has there been a instance where Jean has brainwashed someone?(other than the time Jeen brainwashed Tangel in ANXM)

[ButterRum]

That is some straight up Black Mirror ****. Holy god.

Telepaths are just inherently unethical. Thank god they don't exist IRL.

[ariwl1]

I personally pass zero judgment on Emma (and Jean and Charles) for how they handled Nova in that instance. She'd killed 16 million people, conquered an Empire, and was siccing it on a mansion full of kids.

Thank you kind sir/madam.

So it was EMMA who did the brainwashing in this scenario.
Which makes me question the X-men Red scene again. IMO the Red scene does not seem in-character for her.
Has there been a instance where Jean has brainwashed someone?(other than the time Jeen brainwashed Tangel in ANXM)

Joanna Cargill aka Frenzy in Eve of Destruction. Magneto actually pokes fun at Jean for acting unethically.

[Agni]

I personally pass zero judgment on Emma (and Jean and Charles) for how they handled Nova in that instance. She'd killed 16 million people, conquered an Empire, and was siccing it on a mansion full of kids.

What is your opinion about the X-men Red scene?
And thanks again.

[Narasinha]

the scene left a very bad taste in my mouth.
It seemed to me liked the authors were trying to show how great Jean is by having here reform nova instead of fighting her.
Yet the it obviously looks like mind control. There is no sugar coating it.
Using telepathic ability to manipulate someone is wrong.

Jean didn't really changed Nova's mind. She didn't forced her to do anything. Another way to see what Jean did is that she "cured" Nova and gave her back something she was missing. It's the same kind of thing that a psychologist or a psychiatrist does except that she used her power instead of a lengthy therapy or, in more sever cases, hypnosis, medications and electroshock.

In most countries, people that commit crimes resulting of mental illness may be forced to follow a therapy involving medications and electroshock. What Jean did is similar but faster and less risky. If you view things that way, then the moral question is if she had the right to judge Nova or not. But then, most super-heroes that fight criminals are taking on themselves to judge, and often punish, them. Nearly no super-heroes are legally mandated or get an authorization from the lawful authorities to operate.

[Agni]

Jean didn't really changed Nova's mind. She didn't forced her to do anything. Another way to see what Jean did is that she "cured" Nova and gave her back something she was missing. It's the same kind of thing that a psychologist or a psychiatrist does except that she used her power instead of a lengthy therapy or, in more sever cases, hypnosis, medications and electroshock.

In most countries, people that commit crimes resulting of mental illness may be forced to follow a therapy involving medications and electroshock. What Jean did is similar but faster and less risky. If you view things that way, then the moral question is if she had the right to judge Nova or not. But then, most super-heroes that fight criminals are taking on themselves to judge, and often punish, them. Nearly no super-heroes are legally mandated or get an authorization from the lawful authorities to operate.

Sure then why does she not go about giving every super Villain empathy.
Empathy is not not something you can just flip on or off in the brain.
She would have to manipulate/change nova's mind.

[JeisonWolf]

Hoping that applies to Psylocke and Blob and not Jean and Bishop.

I have to agree with this even if the idea also displeases me, but if I have to choose between Jean and Bishop, Kurt and Meggan or Psylocke and Blob I think I choose Psylocke and Blob, I like Betsy and Warren but Meggan is happily married and has a son and the other option would be to force Jean to be with the man who tried to kill his son and his granddaughter... this would possibly distance Jean from Cable and Hope very much. So sorry Betsy.

[Narasinha]

Stopping nova would have been hauling her to prison not brainwashing her.

She didn't branwashed her. If you take the wiki definition, "psychopathy is traditionally a personality disorder characterized by persistent antisocial behavior, impaired empathy and remorse, and bold, disinhibited, and egotistical traits".

In our societies, psychopathy is a disorder that should be cured (if at all possible), if it push a person to commit crimes. Whatever the psychopath is willing or not to be cured. That pretty much cover the situation in Red: By all definition, Nova is a psychopath that killed large number of people and wanted to kill more. Jean cured her. The only question is if she had the right to do it without some legal authority evaluating Nova's condition and passing judgement on her first.

[Havok83]

She didn't branwashed her. If you take the wiki definition, "psychopathy is traditionally a personality disorder characterized by persistent antisocial behavior, impaired empathy and remorse, and bold, disinhibited, and egotistical traits".

In our societies, psychopathy is a disorder that should be cured (if at all possible), if it push a person to commit crimes. Whatever the psychopath is willing or not to be cured. That pretty much cover the situation in Red: By all definition, Nova is a psychopath that killed large number of people and wanted to kill more. Jean cured her. The only question is if she had the right to do it without some legal authority evaluating Nova's condition and passing judgement on her first.

She didn’t cure her. She filled her with artificial nannites which can be deactivated. What happens if and when that happens? What Jean did was a temporary fix at best. Nova is still a psychopath

[Narasinha]

Sure then why does she not go about giving every super Villain empathy.
Empathy is not not something you can just flip on or off in the brain.
She would have to manipulate/change nova's mind.

In some case, lack of empathy is one symptom of mental illness and we try to cure those kind of illness. So yes, for exemple, if someone doesn't resent empathy because of a chemical problem, we may try to cure that illness with therapy and/or medicine.

Giving empathy to super villain would not help in most case: Most of them are not doing what they do because of a lack of empathy but because they choose to for whatever reason. What Red imply is that Nova is not fundamentally evil but that her acts are the result of an abnormal mental condition that can be cured.