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  1. #5671
    Fire and life incarnate! phoenixzero23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post

    Speaking of which, Teen Jean became friends with the Cuckoos. I would love to see Jean interact with them and it would be interesting to see what the dynamics between them and Emma would be now
    I personaly wound't want Jean to have more interactions with the Cuckoos than Emma.
    Jean has tons of other kids to interact. Let Emma have this.
    Last edited by phoenixzero23; 08-24-2019 at 08:12 PM.
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  2. #5672
    Astonishing Member PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    I doubt that bc Emma's current predicament is rather recent. The cuckoos themselves had a heel turn earlier this year so they are more like Emma. They've never had much of a relationship even after Warsong well over a decade ago.
    The X-23 run? They were all being mind controlled by Esme.
    "It is the truest mark of heroism: to give your life aware that those you save will never know."

  3. #5673
    Astonishing Member Grey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    No one has ever said that. I guess asking Jean fans to not bash Emma every single possible chance they have is too much to ask.
    Just certain ones. You should know who by now.
    Your favorite superhero- the one you visit these forums to talk about. Would they talk to others the way you do on this message board?

  4. #5674
    Mighty Member RachelGrey's Avatar
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    I wonder if it's an age thing for me. I really want Jean to interact as a Mom for Cable and Rachel, and I really want Emma to interact as a Mom for Celeste, Phoebe, and Irma!

    It's not like Jean and Emma have to be any older than 28/29, their kids either exist outside of normal time (Rachel and Cable) or they were artificially grown to teenagers (cuckoos) anyway, so I think it's perfectly fine for the writers to actually explore both of them being mothers for their kids.

  5. #5675
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    Quote Originally Posted by RachelGrey View Post
    I wonder if it's an age thing for me. I really want Jean to interact as a Mom for Cable and Rachel, and I really want Emma to interact as a Mom for Celeste, Phoebe, and Irma!

    It's not like Jean and Emma have to be any older than 28/29, their kids either exist outside of normal time (Rachel and Cable) or they were artificially grown to teenagers (cuckoos) anyway, so I think it's perfectly fine for the writers to actually explore both of them being mothers for their kids.
    The ideal versions of Jean and Rachel in their respective fans' minds are not far enough apart in age to have any kind of realistic mother-daughter relationship. It's kind of like Vegeta and Trunks from DBZ, not that that is a good example of nuanced storytelling of family dynamics, but still. Doing something with Emma might be more feasible, but Marvel seems to prefer to keep the Cuckoos as these odd background characters and occasional jailbait rather than writing stories where they have any real agency. I always had this idea that they should just let Emma branch off from the X-Men and do her own thing as a single mother, raising her girls while trying to simultaneously navigating New England high society, managing her business empire, and of course doing superhero work. Jean could have a role in that series too as Emma's main rival whom she despises but can still team up with from time to time to take on bigger threats. A lot of the series could also take place in the telepathic realm too, so as to give artists more of a chance to be creative as well as give the heroines a reason to be in more kinetic action scenes. Telepathy should be about more than just pointing at your head until you faint, there are a lot of ways to express it more visually if the creators care enough to go into it rather than just using it as a deus ex machina.

  6. #5676
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    It got minimized, and nearly eliminated entirely, because they set the threshold for the Phoenix's power far too high for a street level comic like X-Men. If they maintained consistency, Jean would have been more powerful than every living person on Earth combined several times over. At that point there isn't any drama. The question of mutant equality goes away when you know Jean can just annihilate every single enemy to mutantkind from the comfort of her own bedroom.

    Hence why they went with the "Jean is strong without the Phoenix" stuff in Red. To let her power increase without the bird being around to be the Sword of Damocles.
    I don’t think they cared about Phoenix’s power levels. Basically the Disney/Fox merger meant that the XMen were going to be reconceptualized for MCU. With the XMen being rebooted it didn’t make sense to bring Jean back as Phoenix.

    Look what they’re doing now with even retelling the origins of the XMen, making Moira a much more prominent figure.

    I think Phoenix will get reconceptalized too. Powerful female characters like the Scarlet Witch and Captain Marvel do well in MCU.

  7. #5677
    Fire and life incarnate! phoenixzero23's Avatar
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    I don't know why some people think Rachel and Jean's ages should be a problem for some kind of relationship. I mean Jean coddles Cable and he is at least twice her age.
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  8. #5678
    Ultimate Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenixzero23 View Post
    I don't know why some people think Rachel and Jean's ages should be a problem for some kind of relationship. I mean Jean coddles Cable and he is at least twice her age.
    Jean raised Cable. It was odd at first but its been decades now so their relationship has become the norm and no longer an issue. Besides Jean raised him so it feels less out of place to be motherly towards him. Jean and Rachel are close in age, Jean never raised her and they've never had that relationship despite being acquainted in the books for as long as Jean and Cable. Age shouldn't be a deterrent for them having some kind of relationship but it might for the mother/daughter one that people suggest

  9. #5679
    Astonishing Member PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WallStreeter View Post
    I don’t think they cared about Phoenix’s power levels. Basically the Disney/Fox merger meant that the XMen were going to be reconceptualized for MCU. With the XMen being rebooted it didn’t make sense to bring Jean back as Phoenix.

    Look what they’re doing now with even retelling the origins of the XMen, making Moira a much more prominent figure.

    I think Phoenix will get reconceptalized too. Powerful female characters like the Scarlet Witch and Captain Marvel do well in MCU.
    Unless they reboot literally the entire X-verse from scratch, and reimagine every single character, the movies did not and will not play any meaningful part for the X-Men going forward. Hickman wanting to use Moira has nothing do with First Class.

    There are powerful female characters, then there is a Phoenix host. Storm is on Scarlet Witch or Captain Marvel's level. Magik is on their level. Phoenix Jean can dunk Thanos with the full Infinity Gauntlet and his entire MCU army by herself.

    The Phoenix's power bar is set WAY higher than anything the MCU has remotely come close to. The Phoenix's showings in Dark Phoenix and X-3 saw its power nerfed a million fold or more.
    "It is the truest mark of heroism: to give your life aware that those you save will never know."

  10. #5680
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    Unless they reboot literally the entire X-verse from scratch, and reimagine every single character, the movies did not and will not play any meaningful part for the X-Men going forward. Hickman wanting to use Moira has nothing do with First Class.

    There are powerful female characters, then there is a Phoenix host. Storm is on Scarlet Witch or Captain Marvel's level. Magik is on their level. Phoenix Jean can dunk Thanos with the full Infinity Gauntlet and his entire MCU army by herself.

    The Phoenix's power bar is set WAY higher than anything the MCU has remotely come close to. The Phoenix's showings in Dark Phoenix and X-3 saw its power nerfed a million fold or more.
    Phoenix cannot take down the Infinity Gems. You don’t know anything about the gems if you made such a ridiculous assertion. The gems are the ultimate power in Marvel.

    Thanks defeated all the cosmic entities including Eternity with the gems, and Eternity the multiverse itself and as such is ABOVE Phoenix.

    We saw Galacticus beat Phoenix, until Jean used her psychic absorption powers to draw power from the whole planet, from Terrax, from Phoenix, and from Galacticus.

    As Dark Phoenix, the real height of her power she rivaled Galacticus. Just as Thanos with the gems defeated and contained Galacticus he’d do the same to Phoenix. Neither Galacticus nor Phoenix can end half the universe with just a snap.

    Phoenix’s base power level is on the level of characters like Captain Marvel, the Scarlet Witch, Dr. Strange, Thor. Powerful.

    But totally unbeatable. No way.

    You’re just upset because with it without the Phoenix Emma just gets ways less time and respect in the books. Jean is prominently featured in two while Emma will be barely featured in one.

  11. #5681
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Jean raised Cable. It was odd at first but its been decades now so their relationship has become the norm and no longer an issue. Besides Jean raised him so it feels less out of place to be motherly towards him. Jean and Rachel are close in age, Jean never raised her and they've never had that relationship despite being acquainted in the books for as long as Jean and Cable. Age shouldn't be a deterrent for them having some kind of relationship but it might for the mother/daughter one that people suggest
    Jean was able to raise Cable because Rachel saved Nathan and pulled Jean and Scott into the future to raise Nate.

    That completely changed both their relationships with Rachel. When the Mother Askani died, she gave back the codename Phoenix to Jean.

  12. #5682
    Astonishing Member PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WallStreeter View Post
    Phoenix cannot take down the Infinity Gems. You don’t know anything about the gems if you made such a ridiculous assertion. The gems are the ultimate power in Marvel.

    Thanks defeated all the cosmic entities including Eternity with the gems, and Eternity the multiverse itself and as such is ABOVE Phoenix.

    We saw Galacticus beat Phoenix, until Jean used her psychic absorption powers to draw power from the whole planet, from Terrax, from Phoenix, and from Galacticus.

    As Dark Phoenix, the real height of her power she rivaled Galacticus. Just as Thanos with the gems defeated and contained Galacticus he’d do the same to Phoenix. Neither Galacticus nor Phoenix can end half the universe with just a snap.

    Phoenix’s base power level is on the level of characters like Captain Marvel, the Scarlet Witch, Dr. Strange, Thor. Powerful.

    But totally unbeatable. No way.

    You’re just upset because with it without the Phoenix Emma just gets ways less time and respect in the books. Jean is prominently featured in two while Emma will be barely featured in one.
    1. Stop projecting. I never once said anything about Emma, and Jean fans need to knock that off. I don't know what this inferiority complex you have about Emma is, but it isn't cute.

    2. Comics Infinity Gauntlet wins, but MCU Gauntlet loses to Comics Phoenix. They nerfed what the Gauntlet can do worse than they nerfed Thor or Hulk for the movies.

    3. Phoenix's base power is WAYYYYYY above Captain Marvel. Phoenix is the 14th most powerful being in the entire Marvel combined universe. Captain Marvel isn't even top 75. Neither is Scarlet Witch. Strange as the Ultimate Sorcerer Supreme was 27th. Thor at his most powerful is 34th. Phoenix at base level is capable of annihilating entire galaxies without effort. Remind me when Captain Marvel could do that.

    4. Dark Phoenix is WEAKER than the Phoenix at max power. The Phoenix at max power (White Phoenix of the Crown) is a reality warper on a cosmic level.

    5. Galactus beating the Phoenix in a straight up fight was the rough equal to Squirrel Girl beating Thanos, or a normal missile putting She-Hulk in a coma. Galactus is 22nd on power chart, a full scale below Phoenix. It's the rough equal to Apocalypse beating Odin. Hell, Rachel as Phoenix beat Galactus, and that's with a weaker connection than the one Jean has.
    "It is the truest mark of heroism: to give your life aware that those you save will never know."

  13. #5683
    Ultimate Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WallStreeter View Post
    Jean was able to raise Cable because Rachel saved Nathan and pulled Jean and Scott into the future to raise Nate.

    That completely changed both their relationships with Rachel. When the Mother Askani died, she gave back the codename Phoenix to Jean.
    It didnt change their relationship. It is the same now as it was back in 1994. They dont have a mother/child relationship in the same way that Jean has with Cable and its unrealistic to expect that to change.

  14. #5684
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    It didnt change their relationship. It is the same now as it was back in 1994. They dont have a mother/child relationship in the same way that Jean has with Cable and its unrealistic to expect that to change.
    Sure it changed their relationship. Without Rachel Nathan would have been killed by Apocalypse. Rachel saved Nate in part because he is family. In the same series that Jean and Scott raised Nate, both acknowledged Rachel as their daughter.

  15. #5685
    Ultimate Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WallStreeter View Post
    Sure it changed their relationship. Without Rachel Nathan would have been killed by Apocalypse. Rachel saved Nate in part because he is family. In the same series that Jean and Scott raised Nate, both acknowledged Rachel as their daughter.
    They did that prior to the mini series and we've seen Jean interact with her since then. Again she doesnt view or even treat Rachel, the same way she does Cable

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