Jean Grey: Marvel Girl, Phoenix Appreciation 2019

[PwrdOn]

Nothing wrong with critiquing certain aspects of media, but to be fair, Scott has been written as cowardly before and incapable of leading within the past few years. At the same time, his conversation with the fantastic four towards the end didn't seem that far off from something Emma might have said herself. Jean definitely felt off, but it might be a bit too early for this form of criticism.

Jean fans are just more sensitive to this kind of portrayal because we are all too used to seeing Jean depicted as wimpy and ineffectual, to the point where it's become a meme among the fandom and likely something Hickman was trying to reference in this issue. Obviously all characters are going to have their moments of weakness, but Jean does seem to have a disproportionate number of them for being supposedly the most powerful mutant ever, and in most cases it's not part of some growth arc but just a kind of mean spirited undermining of the character by writers who don't like her. From what I've seen it's just really difficult for a creator to portray a character they dislike in a positive or compelling manner, they usually just end up being used to prop up other characters that happen to be the writer's favorite. And for us as Jean fans, regardless of how talented Hickman may be, it will be very difficult to enjoy his stories if Jean is relegated to playing the damsel in distress all the time.

[Del torro]

[Jean Grey]

You guys are seeing all the bad, but she was literally written as the moral compass of the story. She was the only one concerned for the humans at the station that is building the machine that annihilates them. She's always been the heart of the X-men and she was portrayed as such.

Plus I'm not even sure she was killed off.

And besides this story is supposed to matter, having her at one of the most important moments and seeing them throw everything at the enemy, including their lives is more impactful than whatever they are planning to do with Storm. Although, I do think Storm basically just being like "oh dear" at her teammates dying was so out of character lol

If anything, poor Raven got killed off in such a hilarious way that I feel bad for her even though I'm not a huge fan lmao.

[loke13]

I think it just boils down to some people wanted to see Jean do MORE in these 2 issues. Some people are taking this issue and running with the idea that Marvel wants to "regress" Jean ineffectual member of the X-Men.

But I think some people need to entertain the idea that this one issue doesn't infer ANYTHING about where they want to take Jean's character in the years to come.

[powerpax]

Hickman is a good writer. He writes the male characters very, very well. Same with Rosenberg. But they don't get a pass for it. No one is above criticism, and especially when we have a lot of work to do with other groups (those who are not straight white males). There is this idea that a lot straight white males have trouble identifying with the "other" and I believe that Hickman may not write female characters as well compared to how he writes strong male characters. I will be happy to be wrong. I hope that I am wrong, but we have some slight evidence that there may be an issue (HOx #4).

What about the counter-examples? We've listed strong women Hickman has written. Jean not getting in more feats this week does not devalue those examples or indicate a sinister pattern. It just means Jean had a rough week during a suicide mission to the heart of the sun.

[loke13]

What about the counter-examples? We've listed strong women Hickman has written. Jean not getting in more feats this week does not devalue those examples or indicate a sinister pattern. It just means Jean had a rough week during a suicide mission to the heart of the sun.

And not even just Marvel examples Hickman has written some damn good women characters in his own independent works (Black Monday Murders and East of West) so this belief that "Hickman may not write female characters as well compared to how he writes strong male characters." is bogus.

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Xioalin is one of the best female characters out of East of West and is somewhat a secondary protagonist a Chinese American, leader of a her nation, wife to the Horseman of Death, and Mother to the Beast of the Apocalypse.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Does pretending that people are asking for power feats somehow obfuscate the truth that Jean Grey was notably out of character? It seems like these people would have been satisfied with her trying to put up a fight and failing, rather than being noticeably daintier and less courageous than all of the other characters, yes?

I'm just highlighting the obvious here...

[thechronic92]

What about the counter-examples? We've listed strong women Hickman has written. Jean not getting in more feats this week does not devalue those examples or indicate a sinister pattern. It just means Jean had a rough week during a suicide mission to the heart of the sun.

It's not about feats. It's about characterisation. Jean came off as childlike and inexperienced. She's one of the senior X-Men and has been in desperate situations before, instead she had to be told what to do by everyone. Her teammates died while she cowered in fear.

[loke13]

Does pretending that people are asking for power feats somehow obfuscate the truth that Jean Grey was notably out of character? It seems like these people would have been satisfied with her trying to put up a fight and failing, rather than being noticeably daintier and less courageous than all of the other characters, yes?

I'm just highlighting the obvious here...

On the other hand the reductionist stance people have taken to her emotional response to this mission is a little demeaning no? The plan went belly up the moment they tried to breach the hull and two teammates she was psychically linked with died immediately and the rest of her team (who she was still psychically linked with) received severe injuries including her and then over the course of probably less than 15 minutes the rest of her team were brutally murdered or sacrificed themselves. There was nothing "less courageous" about Jean this issue in fact I'd say it was a different kind of courage she showed and one her fans aren't used to seeing from her and in the same breath trying to belittle.

[Jean Grey]

Does pretending that people are asking for power feats somehow obfuscate the truth that Jean Grey was notably out of character? It seems like these people would have been satisfied with her trying to put up a fight and failing, rather than being noticeably daintier and less courageous than all of the other characters, yes?

I'm just highlighting the obvious here...

Yea, it's almost as if she didn't have TK.

I just don't think this is the X-men Red Jean.

[MechaJeanix]

And not even just Marvel examples Hickman has written some damn good women characters in his own independent works (Black Monday Murders and East of West) so this belief that "Hickman may not write female characters as well compared to how he writes strong male characters." is bogus.

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Xioalin is one of the best female characters out of East of West and is somewhat a secondary protagonist a Chinese American, leader of a her nation, wife to the Horseman of Death, and Mother to the Beast of the Apocalypse.

I've read every issue of Black Monday Murders. I love the series. I wrote on this very board months ago that I read the book and most of his FF run in preparation for HOX/POX. If you look at Black Monday Murders there again is a big difference in how he writes men and women. My point remains. I have moved beyond even strong and weak but talking about the difference in his portrayals of the sexes/genders. I think a lot of cishet white males write women how they think women are instead of treating them as they are (which is no different or almost no different than a male character would be used/treated). It is the exaggerated features or reactions given to women characters to attempt to make them "female". Again look at the dialogues he gives the male characters... he centers them in the narrative. That is what I've been getting at. Again his Black Monday Murders is good and I think it is a great story. My central point or thesis is that he is very male centric. This story does have a man of color as one of the main characters but the detective bit does seem stereotypical in his presentation. Writers often use stereotypes.

I haven't read all of his work so I cannot discuss his work exhaustively.

Again to Jean, we will have to wait and see how she is used by him going forward. I am not that interested in feats, and I think Hickman and the current editors are wary of power creep so I think all the characters will have more realistic power feats. I am ok with this.

I know in the story that Jean was facing a lot of trama, but Jean has faced the sun before (New X-men 148), and same with Wolverine. People keeping talking how powerful the Nightcrawler and Wolverine scene was, and I'm here like read New X-men 148.

[MechaJeanix]

I am curious about Scott being cowardly, ineffectual, and a poor leader, outside of Teen Scott. Even if he has had moments, they weren't allowed to define him. Scott has been allowed to have this Shakespearean arc that most of the other characters, and especially the women characters do not get in the X-men. Outside of Clarmeont a lot of the male writers focus on Scott and Wolverine. Claremont did devote a lot of time on Storm, Rogue, Kitty, others. Claremont with all his problems did write women characters like actualized people and not support for the men. He didn't always center the males like we came to experience in the 90's and beyond in the X-men. I think this supports some of the fan conflicts : those of us that want women/minority characters centered and those who expect X-men to be the story of Scott Summers or Wolverine or Xavier. Hickman during a recent interview did act like the X-men were the story of the Summers family and in a Rosenberg issue he had Moonstar say to Scott that it was always the Scott story or the Scott and Jean story or Scott and Logan.

It wasn't always the case. I recently read the entire Uncanny run and as mentioned before in Claremont's classic run I'd argue Storm was the star. She was the heart of the team. She was focused and centered. The history of the X-men hasn't always been a man's story, but in recent years we have circled back to it and my fear is that this aspect will long continue. Again, it is a wait and see and I hope that I'm wrong. I will be happy to be wrong and will admit to being wrong.

Like I mentioned before some of us were spoiled by X-men Red, because Jean became a leader and Scott wasn't around. She was beginning to get some of the development that the Cyclops character got when she was dead. Now he's back and she seems way off and it just gives early 90's vibes and also call back to the early original X-men days.

[phoenixzero23]

Hickman has said that X-men isn't going to be about the Summer family like three times already.

Also Scott has nothing to do with Jean's portrayal. He was following her on X-men Blue without problem (in fact he joined just to be there for her and give her hugs and worry for her) and she didn't lead Age of X-man or X-force (scott isn't in those).
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I'm sorry but he is not the reason this happened to Jean.
they themselves have interacted very little on more than a decade (maybe way more, even on Morrison's run they didn't interact much)

[powerpax]

I haven't read all of his work so I cannot discuss his work exhaustively.

Clearly not, because his Avengers run and the women and people of color featured there among other books also defuses your argument.

I know in the story that Jean was facing a lot of trama, but Jean has faced the sun before (New X-men 148), and same with Wolverine. People keeping talking how powerful the Nightcrawler and Wolverine scene was, and I'm here like read New X-men 148.

I remember it well. Doesn't change the fact that here, Jean completes her mission and her function to it therein (uplink) despite being wounded and traumatized. What is wrong with that? We can say oh, why didn't she do what Monet did, why didn't she do what Nightcrawler did. Because she didn't. Everyone had a purpose in the story. Jean's was to be the communications link and the last surviving X-Man.

[powerpax]

Hickman during a recent interview did act like the X-men were the story of the Summers family

That's not what he said. He did talk about featuring them in his first arc or first issue, but his main book has a rotating cast of characters and rotating stories. One of the first just happens to feature the Summers clan. He also indicated Ororo is heavily featured in #1.

I am a massive Ororo fan going back over 30 years so this argument also won't work for me, but your concern is noted.