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  1. #3736
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    I think it worked more for the 80s than now. My problem is that people take it wrong, it isn't about a woman not dealing well with great power.
    Jean was doing well on her own, then hellfire club messed up her head and all the balance she had, then she went dark phoenix.It's about society sabotaging women
    Itís horribke by todayís standards. By todayís standards the Hellfire Club committee rape and never got punished for it. While the victim of the sexual assault lost control of her great power and got killed. For this reason the movie was a huge Improvement over the original. And thankfully this movie has permanently killed off any chance the MCU will do Dark Phoenix.

    Oh, and Phoenix lived at the end of this movie. She regained control of her great powers. I look forward to her reintroduction in the MCU.

  2. #3737
    Extraordinary Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WallStreeter View Post
    It’s horribke by today’s standards. By today’s standards the Hellfire Club committee rape and never got punished for it. While the victim of the sexual assault lost control of her great power and got killed. For this reason the movie was a huge Improvement over the original. And thankfully this movie has permanently killed off any chance the MCU will do Dark Phoenix.

    Oh, and Phoenix lived at the end of this movie. She regained control of her great powers. I look forward to her reintroduction in the MCU.
    That is why Jean dying is not a good end for the dark phoenix saga. She only died because Shooter thought there wasn't a going back from genocide.

  3. #3738
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenixzero23 View Post

    Has anybody read Marvel Comics presents? it is worth for Jean fans?
    Edit: cute picture!
    Attachment 83845
    Why is Cable the size of Giant Man?

  4. #3739
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    Quote Originally Posted by MechaJeanix View Post
    I try not to get too upset about it because I could rant on end about what they have done to the Phoenix. I felt during Morrison's run they finally put Jean and Phoenix back together the way Claremont intended them to be. It was time to move forward and forget the Phoenix as a cosmic std. Boy, was I wrong. Things were good up until Endsong.

    Now the Phoenix is a cosmic trickster and a destructive force. Claremont and Morrison had the Phoenix be a agent of good (saving the universe, healing the universe, etc). It was also an agent of change/evolution. There were dark elements but in both stories it was when Jean was manipulated by outside forces (Hellfire Club, Sublime,). Now the narrative is that it is a villain and too dangerous to wield. We forget that Jean used the Phoenix before becoming Dark Phoenix. We forget that Jean used the Phoenix well in Morrison's run. We forget Rachel using the Phoenix for good (though she had dark urges too: see her trying to destroy the universe to defeat the Beyonder, forcing Storm and others to help her, and trying to murder Selene).

    Rosenberg's take was so damaging because we can infer when Jean has done good things as Phoenix she just willingly giving herself over to her emotional and manipulative abuser lol His take is so bad. What really annoys me is that he acts like he did something new with her, but it was just a rest. The only good from it was that Jean wasnt' retconned. I was fully prepared for them to say that Jean in Morrison's run was a Phoenix clone. At least we did not get that.
    I completely agree with you. And upon being separated from
    The Phoenix they ignored Jeenís evolution in power and attitude, and made Jean into an ineffectual pacifist just so they could redo a combination of Age of Apocalypse and Heriew Reborn to reboot the XMen now that Disney has full rights.

    But notice when Jean sent the Phoenix away, it didnít fly away. So it just shrank in her hands. I think another writer will just say it never left and I think editorial deliberately had the story end like that. Another indication that editorial still links the Phoenix with Jean is how Rachel got her Phoenix power back. Instead of her getting the Phoenix force she merged with her counterpart, the Mother Askani who still has her Phoenix powers.

  5. #3740
    Mighty Member Marvelboy1974's Avatar
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    I don’t understand why Jean can’t be Phoenix again without the force. She doesn’t need the Phoenix force. But the name Phoenix is too perfect for Jean. Nothing will ever be even close. This would allow Jean to be at Rhor level without the specter of Dark Phoenix. Even if she did have the Phoenix force, Jean and Rachel could share the force without danger of going dark. Jean would be Phoenix, and Rachel could have a new code name: BloodPhoenix or Summerset, or something like that.

  6. #3741
    Fire and life incarnate! phoenixzero23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvelboy1974 View Post
    I don’t understand why Jean can’t be Phoenix again without the force. She doesn’t need the Phoenix force. But the name Phoenix is too perfect for Jean. Nothing will ever be even close. This would allow Jean to be at Rhor level without the specter of Dark Phoenix. Even if she did have the Phoenix force, Jean and Rachel could share the force without danger of going dark. Jean would be Phoenix, and Rachel could have a new code name: BloodPhoenix or Summerset, or something like that.
    This is pure speculation from my part but I believe that maybe it is because having Jean superpowerful more or less on Galactus tier could be problematic for telling certain storiers. Thor is a god who fights other gods all the time. If Jean/Phoenix fought other people on her level the other X-men would count and do nothing.

    At least that the explanation I give myself.
    Ranking of favorite characters
    Phoenix/Jean, Cyclops, Wolverine, Storm

    These characters are not real and nobody loves each other for real. They will dump and love people even if it makes no sense just to for the sake of it.
    My ships: Jean/Scott, Wanda/Vision, Scott/Logan, Rogue/Gambit, Storm/Black Panther.

  7. #3742
    Ultimate Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvelboy1974 View Post
    I don’t understand why Jean can’t be Phoenix again without the force. She doesn’t need the Phoenix force. But the name Phoenix is too perfect for Jean. Nothing will ever be even close. This would allow Jean to be at Rhor level without the specter of Dark Phoenix. Even if she did have the Phoenix force, Jean and Rachel could share the force without danger of going dark. Jean would be Phoenix, and Rachel could have a new code name: BloodPhoenix or Summerset, or something like that.
    bc the Phoenix was actively being used elsewhere when she returned. It can be a bit confusing to have Jean denounce the Phoenix Force yet continue to still call herself that. What was done with her return wasnt like the mid 90s when she took on the name as an homage and embraced it. She kinda needs to reconcile her relationship with the Phoenix before she can go around calling herself that again

  8. #3743
    Astonishing Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WallStreeter View Post
    It’s horribke by today’s standards. By today’s standards the Hellfire Club committee rape and never got punished for it. While the victim of the sexual assault lost control of her great power and got killed. For this reason the movie was a huge Improvement over the original. And thankfully this movie has permanently killed off any chance the MCU will do Dark Phoenix.

    Oh, and Phoenix lived at the end of this movie. She regained control of her great powers. I look forward to her reintroduction in the MCU.
    Yes, me too. Jean as the Phoenix is in space flying around. The MCU should have the Avengers notice this mega energy source, go to an alien world, where the energy changes back to Jean!

  9. #3744
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenixzero23 View Post
    This is pure speculation from my part but I believe that maybe it is because having Jean superpowerful more or less on Galactus tier could be problematic for telling certain storiers. Thor is a god who fights other gods all the time. If Jean/Phoenix fought other people on her level the other X-men would count and do nothing.

    At least that the explanation I give myself.
    Youíre absolutely right, I think. Marvel
    In recent years has laid the seeds to solve this problem. Both Jean and Phoenix have become bigger throughout the Marvel Unverse.

    As for Phoenix, in any form with her around it means writers cannot do mutant extinction stories. In fact, Jean upon her return after resurrection was still resurrected and feared to the point where the only thing like something like humans putting out the anti mutant vaccine and the Avengers again doing nothing could not happen with her present.

    So she has to fall victim of AoXM, Abe the only way that still happened is Jean tried extra hard not to take Nate down. The XMen are in serious need of modernization and a reboot.

    But back to Phoenix and Jean, both are now tied to the Guardians of the Galaxy, the Asgardians, and the Phoenix has beaten Tbanos. So as I said just make her bigger in Marvel s d give her own book again.

  10. #3745
    Astonishing Member Askani's Flame's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WallStreeter View Post
    Another indication that editorial still links the Phoenix with Jean is how Rachel got her Phoenix power back. Instead of her getting the Phoenix force she merged with her counterpart, the Mother Askani who still has her Phoenix powers.
    1) At this point Rachel has not been shown to wield the PF again. It was just that issue cover and a dated look one the Hickman poster.
    2) Mother Askani/Rachel lost her connection to the PF at the end of the "Phoenix" mini and at the end of "TAoC&P" when she died (it took her power and strength plus the remnant Force to bring Jean & Scott through time and tethered into those bodies). So Rachel should not have gained anything from her alternate self in X-Force as it was already gone.
    3) I don't see how if she did get access again through Mother Askani, it means it's linked to Jean. I don't follow the logic given that Rachel is a previous host and is currently 2000+ yrs away from the current timeline.

    Meanwhile I agree that for Jean to be fully intertwined with the Phoenix again would make her power level be problematic for storytelling as new Galactus level or god-level threats would be required to make the most of Jean or she would constantly have to be nerfed or job.

  11. #3746
    Extraordinary Member The Shape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenixzero23 View Post
    It depends, some people think it is about a girl going crazy then dying.
    I personally see it as a woman growing out of childhood, being strong and at the end being responsible for her own live and actions, taking a really difficult decision. So it is a feminist story to me but i get if some people think it isn't
    Fair enough.

  12. #3747
    Fantastic Member MechaJeanix's Avatar
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    So do we want to discuss Major X issue 6? Poor Jean gets nerfed again. Which is ok because no matter how powerful a character is they can't always win... but still, girl can't catch a break these days. Aside from X-men Red Jean hasn't been displayed as very powerful. Which is odd because in X-men Red Cassandra said Jean was more powerful than when she went up against her before.. and Jean in New X-men was pretty strong.

    Though it is sort of a trend. Look at Storm and Rachel in recent years. Hopefully Jean has better days ahead of her under Hickman.

  13. #3748
    Ultimate Member Havok83's Avatar
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    It sucks bc Jean came back and has had very few feats to back her up. She was trolled throughout Uncanny, is irrelevant in AoX and gets jobbed in Major X and Typhoid Mary.

  14. #3749
    Extraordinary Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MechaJeanix View Post
    So do we want to discuss Major X issue 6? Poor Jean gets nerfed again. Which is ok because no matter how powerful a character is they can't always win... but still, girl can't catch a break these days. Aside from X-men Red Jean hasn't been displayed as very powerful. Which is odd because in X-men Red Cassandra said Jean was more powerful than when she went up against her before.. and Jean in New X-men was pretty strong.

    Though it is sort of a trend. Look at Storm and Rachel in recent years. Hopefully Jean has better days ahead of her under Hickman.
    Major X was more about the boys: deadpool, alex and Cable. it was written and drawn by Liefeld, so it is pretty awful. At least he seems to like Jean

  15. #3750
    Mighty Member CoCoBandz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    Major X was more about the boys: deadpool, alex and Cable. it was written and drawn by Liefeld, so it is pretty awful. At least he seems to like Jean
    Eerything that has to be said. No more no less.

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