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  1. #8656
    Mighty Member darewithpeace's Avatar
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    we can be heroes, just for one day

  2. #8657
    Extraordinary Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MechaJeanix View Post
    Morrison wasn't very explicit when it came to the Phoenix. He did have Jean manifest it without ever showing how she got it. It just came from inside her. He used the phoenix egg which we all saw as a version of the cocoon (or re-contextualizing the cocoon but who knows), in HCT Jean hatched from the Phoenix egg. Her powers was described as the ultimate mutation and telekinetic godhood in a jar, Sublime-beast used phoenix like powers by injecting him with Jean's blood.

    Even in the Imperial story Cyclops spoke to Jean as if she was the Phoenix (we know what happened last time when you lost control of those big emotions of yours and Jean telling him it was different this time). But I recall on the message boards and things people were upset that the retcon wasn't referenced. In the story with Xavier and Jean, Xavier did reference a rogue phoenix manifestation but it wasn't explicit if Jean was involved or what. It was a sly way of kind of referencing the retcon.


    Jean was unplugged from the Phoenix by Cassandra/Ernst and Martha when they unplugged the crown (referring to the crown chakra) which to me implied Jean was connected to the power innately through her tp powers, but again Morrison wasn't explicit. I thought Morrison was saying Jean was naturally a part of the Phoenix as she was shown in death to be in the white hot room and a white phoenix of the crown. But of course other writers since have had their takes and every take on the Phoenix is different.

    When it comes to the Phoenix it is always hard to say. I loved in Pak's Endsong when Jean said she was always Jean and always the Phoenix but in Resurrection Jean/Phoenix said something similar and Beast contradicted it. I think Rosenberg was going with the Phoenix as a toxic stalker that just manipulated Jean which took away her agency and that is why I hate Matt Rosenberg's take. It took away the positive feelings that Jean had about the Phoenix in Claremont's, Seagle's, Morrison's, and Pak's stories. I also didn't like Rosenberg having Jean saying she didn't understand the Phoenix and she didn't have a destiny with it (or whatever she said). Jean seemed to know what the Phoenix was about in Endsong and seemed to understand their connection.

    I'm rambling so I'm out. Even as Phoenix fan it makes my head hurt. I wish the streamlined version that Morrison wrote had lasted. I think the phoenix is less confusing when it is a part of Jean and not some world destroying cosmic trickster.
    Phoenix story is full of retcons and interpretations. I'm curious about the pre historic Phoenix on Avengers BC, she will probably have a issue dedicated to her next year on 2021.
    Jason aaron has a strange story with Phoenix, he probably prefer Wolverine.
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  3. #8658
    Extraordinary Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    I think that's where a lot of my problem with House of X and Hickman's issues of Dawn of X are, too. I sure do appreciate the X-Men when they're telling a genuinely good story - but that's not exactly why I'm here. I'm connected to the characters; it's them that are important to me. I can forgive a mediocre story if the characterization is on point.

    It feels like Hickman is using most of the X-Men to spin his own story on metahumans and them finding a place of their own. He's using them as set pieces instead of writing the story around them.
    Hickman basically made the mutants the new Inhumans. Inhumans usually agree on most things because they are a absolutist monarchy for thousands of yeas and yet it still didn't saved black bolt from being cast over when he liberated the terrigen mists.

    X-men are all agreeing in complete obedience. I know there is some x-men that aren't going to krakoa, but it must be very few minors characters that we will see on new Mutants with Glob trying to recreuit them
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  4. #8659
    Fire and life incarnate! phoenixzero23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    Hickman basically made the mutants the new Inhumans. Inhumans usually agree on most things because they are a absolutist monarchy for thousands of yeas and yet it still didn't saved black bolt from being cast over when he liberated the terrigen mists.
    Yes and it is ironic considering how much some X-fans hated the inhumans and now are praising Hickman.
    My opinions are my own

  5. #8660
    Extraordinary Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenixzero23 View Post
    Yes and it is ironic considering how much some X-fans hated the inhumans and now are praising Hickman.
    Yeah really ironic. It's like Kitty being the protagonist on Gold and other characters taking hits to make her look better soeveryone compained and then on Marauders everything is fine.
    Then there is people wanting MCU to start with Krakoa, doesn't make sense start mutants as inhumans.

    I ownder if people even praising hickman notices it
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  6. #8661
    Ultimate Member Wiccan's Avatar
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    People didn't hate the Inhumans for their premise and concepts. They hated them for how they were like, gassing mutants to death. The mutants in the other hand are doing nothing against inhumans or humans or any other race. In fact they're benefitting humans a lot with their drugs.

  7. #8662
    Astonishing Member Soulsword323's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    People didn't hate the Inhumans for their premise and concepts. They hated them for how they were like, gassing mutants to death. The mutants in the other hand are doing nothing against inhumans or humans or any other race. In fact they're benefitting humans a lot with their drugs.
    Thank you for saying this.

  8. #8663
    Fire and life incarnate! phoenixzero23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    People didn't hate the Inhumans for their premise and concepts. They hated them for how they were like, gassing mutants to death. The mutants in the other hand are doing nothing against inhumans or humans or any other race. In fact they're benefitting humans a lot with their drugs.
    But they are still acting like a completely different species. Mutants are humans, they look weird, they have powers but they are people. They aren't above or below humans, making them so much different and apart from them makes me feel like something is lost.
    My opinions are my own

  9. #8664
    Extraordinary Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    People didn't hate the Inhumans for their premise and concepts. They hated them for how they were like, gassing mutants to death. The mutants in the other hand are doing nothing against inhumans or humans or any other race. In fact they're benefitting humans a lot with their drugs.
    It was Blackbolt that released the terrigen mists and inhumans didn't agreed with him, so he was dethroned and casted away.
    I heard a lot of complaints about Inhumans being monarchs, dettached from society. So it was hard to be relatable

    Quote Originally Posted by phoenixzero23 View Post
    But they are still acting like a completely different species. Mutants are humans, they look weird, they have powers but they are people. They aren't above or below humans, making them so much different and apart from them makes me feel like something is lost.
    mutants are in a silent war with humans. have always been, but now mutants wants to take over instead of coexistence.
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  10. #8665
    Ultimate Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenixzero23 View Post
    But they are still acting like a completely different species. Mutants are humans, they look weird, they have powers but they are people. They aren't above or below humans, making them so much different and apart from them makes me feel like something is lost.
    They are a different species though, well subspecies and evolution has been a core theme of them since the very beginning. They've been treated as different to the point that they've been hunted to near extinction several times over the past 2 decades and the current status quo is a response to that. They've tried to assimilate and tried to act like they arent different but thats never worked out for them, like ever. The one thing mutants have never had is actual representation and establishing their own country gives them that as it legitimizes them to the global economy. This is their way of playing by the rules and confines of humanity while protecting and preserving their place in this world going forward.

    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    It was Blackbolt that released the terrigen mists and inhumans didn't agreed with him, so he was dethroned and casted away.
    I heard a lot of complaints about Inhumans being monarchs, dettached from society. So it was hard to be relatable
    BB was cast out but Medusa took his place and allowed the cloud to exist knowing it was killing mutants. X-Fans didnt give a damn about Inhuman politics except what pushing that franchsie forward at the expense of the X-line did. We had JUST gotten over an extinction era and Marvel put the X-men through another one to drive story for the Inhumans. AvX happened not to long before and that era was clearly gearing up for IvX. Marvel was rallying the fanbases against each other with this and the response was X-fans hating the Inhumans. Like no one gave a damn about the Inhumans and what was going on with them and the T-cloud following Infinity (2013)until it made its way into the X-books (2015) and the X-men were suffering as a result.
    Last edited by Havok83; 11-21-2019 at 10:30 AM.

  11. #8666
    Extraordinary Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post

    BB was cast out but Medusa took his place and allowed the cloud to exist knowing it was killing mutants. X-Fans didnt give a damn about Inhuman politics except what pushing that franchsie forward at the expense of the X-line did. We had JUST gotten over an extinction era and Marvel put the X-men through another one to drive story for the Inhumans. AvX happened not to long before and that era was clearly gearing up for IvX. Marvel was rallying the fanbases against each other with this and the response was X-fans hating the Inhumans. Like no one gave a damn about the Inhumans and what was going on with them and the T-cloud following Infinity (2013)until it made its way into the X-books (2015) and the X-men were suffering as a result.
    They were all the terrigen mists they had, if they destroyed it inhumans would never get new inhumans.
    I think it dragged too long, at a point of making inhumans the villains.
    I think that x fans bought the Inhumans are substituing the x-men, that wasn't true at all. Marvel was investing on Inhumans at the same time they got a cut on x-men. But inhumans didn't got tons of A names artists and writers. Inhumans talent was very on par with X-men talent
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  12. #8667
    Ultimate Member Wiccan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    They were all the terrigen mists they had, if they destroyed it inhumans would never get new inhumans.t
    ...Why do you think you have to explain that?

    I think that x fans bought the Inhumans are substituing the x-men, that wasn't true at all.
    It kinda was. Perlmutter thought Inhumans was a good alternative considering the X-Men movie rights were't with them, and that was the whole reason they were getting pushed. And in-story, the creation of NuHumans made it so anyone could turn out to be an inhuman and awaken their powers, just like it was for mutants. And then when people created new characters without a specific origin, being an inhuman was it. In Agents of SHIELD it was really obvious how that premise was used as a replacement for mutants in the overall world.

  13. #8668
    Fire and life incarnate! phoenixzero23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    They are a different species though, well subspecies and evolution has been a core theme of them since the very beginning. They've been treated as different to the point that they've been hunted to near extinction several times over the past 2 decades and the current status quo is a response to that. They've tried to assimilate and tried to act like they arent different but thats never worked out for them, like ever. The one thing mutants have never had is actual representation and establishing their own country gives them that as it legitimizes them to the global economy. This is their way of playing by the rules and confines of humanity while protecting and preserving their place in this world going forward.
    Yes, they are a different species that's right and yes humans have treated them diferently. But the point is that they may look different than humans but they are humans because they act and live like humans, like normal people. The moment they themselves believe they are something else, when they start acting different than humans I think the metaphor loses some meaning
    My opinions are my own

  14. #8669
    Ultimate Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    They were all the terrigen mists they had, if they destroyed it inhumans would never get new inhumans.
    I think it dragged too long, at a point of making inhumans the villains.
    I think that x fans bought the Inhumans are substituing the x-men, that wasn't true at all. Marvel was investing on Inhumans at the same time they got a cut on x-men. But inhumans didn't got tons of A names artists and writers. Inhumans talent was very on par with X-men talent
    But they ended up destroying the mists in the end anyway so this all seemed moot

    There were solutions to the problem that Medusa never explored, such as containing the cloud. There's enough powered beings around such as Crystal who could have used her powers to have it permanently stationd over Inhuman sanctioned land. They could have crystallized the clouds back into crystals. Having it run rampant across the Earth was so unethicaal anyway. Take away what it did to mutants, Medusa was FORCING the Terrigan transformation process on people that didnt ask for it. For years it was very controlled and Inhumans had free will. Instead in that era, they were forcing it on unsuspecting humans. Some got cool powers, but many were transformed into something hideous and their lives were forever changed and many times it wasnt glamorous

  15. #8670
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    But they ended up destroying the mists in the end anyway so this all seemed moot

    There were solutions to the problem that Medusa never explored, such as containing the cloud. There's enough powered beings around such as Crystal who could have used her powers to have it permanently stationd over Inhuman sanctioned land. They could have crystallized the clouds back into crystals. Having it run rampant across the Earth was so unethicaal anyway. Take away what it did to mutants, Medusa was FORCING the Terrigan transformation process on people that didnt ask for it. For years it was very controlled and Inhumans had free will. Instead in that era, they were forcing it on unsuspecting humans. Some got cool powers, but many were transformed into something hideous and their lives were forever changed and many times it wasnt glamorous
    Some of the people transformed by the mist got some horrific mutations that not only were they monsters, they lost the ability to speak or lost other abilities that people have. Definitely terrigen mist exposure was inhumane and cruel.

    Marvel was pushing Inhumans as a substitute for mutants. But by the time IvX happened, Disney was already negotitating to buy Fox. The Inhumans had failed to get public acceptance, so at that point it was destroy the CLOUD.

    I do like a few Nuhumans like Kamala Khan, Moongirl, Daisy Johnson, Dante, etc. But yeah, overall the terrigen mists just didn't work.

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