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  1. #5311
    Fire and life incarnate! phoenixzero23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    It would be really bad if the last Jean phoenix story was shitty here comes tomorrow.
    Even worse if it is Endsong
    Technically the last one was phoenix resurrection. I think there will be more phoenix stories in the future, just not yet.
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  2. #5312
    BANNED spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenixzero23 View Post
    Technically the last one was phoenix resurrection. I think there will be more phoenix stories in the future, just not yet.
    Phoenix ressurrection is more of a break up story and it kinda of retcon phoenix/jean relationship

  3. #5313
    Fire and life incarnate! phoenixzero23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    Phoenix ressurrection is more of a break up story and it kinda of retcon phoenix/jean relationship
    I know but at least it brought her back, the previous two just tried to kill her and leave her death. That sounds like an improvement (at least to me), sooner or later someone will bring the phoenix back at retcon Jean's relationship with it again.
    My ships
    Jean/Scott, Wanda/Vision, Rogue/Gambit, Storm/Black Panther

  4. #5314
    BANNED spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenixzero23 View Post
    I know but at least it brought her back, the previous two just tried to kill her and leave her death. That sounds like an improvement (at least to me), sooner or later someone will bring the phoenix back at retcon Jean's relationship with it again.
    I guess many people thought endsong was jean ressurrection and bailed out on the next installment. The problem is that Jean as phoenix was just a plot device to advance everyone story but not Jean

  5. #5315
    Fantastic Member Shreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike7171 View Post
    I would rather Jean pickup from where Teen Jean left off than being a Phoenix.
    That's what I was rooting for When Jean returned in X-Men: Red. Here's to that still being a on the table.

  6. #5316
    Astonishing Member PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    Phoenix ressurrection is more of a break up story and it kinda of retcon phoenix/jean relationship
    Not really. It still shows Jean as the host of hosts, and that the Phoenix will do just about anything to have Jean host her. Jean rejected her because she can't continue to live in that cycle of life and death that is so natural to the Phoenix.
    "It is the truest mark of heroism: to give your life aware that those you save will never know."

  7. #5317
    Incredible Member MechaJeanix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    It would be really bad if the last Jean phoenix story was shitty here comes tomorrow.
    Even worse if it is Endsong
    Here Comes Tomorrow was a great Phoenix/Jean story. I can't describe how much I loved the panels where she is in White Phoenix mode - holding the badly wounded orphan universe in her hands. But I loved all the other elements of the story as well. I thought Here Comes Tomorrow was better than Dark Phoenix Saga.. mostly because Morrison is a superior writer to Claremont. I do love both stories. In fact Here Comes Tomorrow was only a chapter in Morrison's Phoenix/Jean story (the last chapter). Jean had a great role in Morrison's run and she did not act robotic like you said earlier. Look at E is for extinction, Germ Free Generation, Imperial, and the issue where she talks to Dust, etc. Jean had her personality, her heart, but I know some will never appreciate anything about the run because Jean dies at the end and Morrison messed with Scott and Jean's relationship. Morrison made their relationship more human and less Disney-esque one true love, OTP stuff.

    Phoenix Endsong was a mess but had at least some good moments. Phoenix Resurrection was a mess. I don't like how Rosenberg made the Phoenix a stalkerish entity that was manipulative/abusive with Jean. In Morrison's run Jean accepted her growing powers and her role as a Phoenix (or that's how I took it). Jean shouldn't have to deny who she is because it makes others uncomfortable.

    I don't know if Jean will be Phoenix again or if that ship has sailed. I love Jean as both plain Jean and Phoenix-Jean so I'm good either way. I like that Jean is powerful with or without Phoenix. I also hate that fans seem to think Phoenix takes away from Jean when we don't act that way towards any other character and the Phoenix. Rachel was never contested as being powerful because she had or was amped by the Phoenix.

    I see the Phoenix as a natural evolution for Jean and Rachel. Claremont saw it that way, but of course other writers had other ideas.

  8. #5318
    BANNED spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MechaJeanix View Post
    Here Comes Tomorrow was a great Phoenix/Jean story. I can't describe how much I loved the panels where she is in White Phoenix mode - holding the badly wounded orphan universe in her hands. But I loved all the other elements of the story as well. I thought Here Comes Tomorrow was better than Dark Phoenix Saga.. mostly because Morrison is a superior writer to Claremont. I do love both stories. In fact Here Comes Tomorrow was only a chapter in Morrison's Phoenix/Jean story (the last chapter). Jean had a great role in Morrison's run and she did not act robotic like you said earlier. Look at E is for extinction, Germ Free Generation, Imperial, and the issue where she talks to Dust, etc. Jean had her personality, her heart, but I know some will never appreciate anything about the run because Jean dies at the end and Morrison messed with Scott and Jean's relationship. Morrison made their relationship more human and less Disney-esque one true love, OTP stuff.
    Disney stuff is as human as Morrison stuff. People seriously need to stop liking messed up behavior with being human, while being a good person or whatever health relationship is unreal and not human.
    Both are every human, we have stop with cinism

    Claremont is much better than Morrison, Claremont saved x-men from being canceled and made it the biggest Marvel franchise. Morrison never did it

    Morrison could only dream about here comes tomorrow being better than dark phoenix, it wasn't even about jean or phoenix.

    Phoenix Endsong was a mess but had at least some good moments. Phoenix Resurrection was a mess. I don't like how Rosenberg made the Phoenix a stalkerish entity that was manipulative/abusive with Jean. In Morrison's run Jean accepted her growing powers and her role as a Phoenix (or that's how I took it). Jean shouldn't have to deny who she is because it makes others uncomfortable.
    Yeah Rosenberg ignored, but also there is a lack of good phoenix stories since dark phoenix
    I don't know if Jean will be Phoenix again or if that ship has sailed. I love Jean as both plain Jean and Phoenix-Jean so I'm good either way. I like that Jean is powerful with or without Phoenix. I also hate that fans seem to think Phoenix takes away from Jean when we don't act that way towards any other character and the Phoenix. Rachel was never contested as being powerful because she had or was amped by the Phoenix.

    I see the Phoenix as a natural evolution for Jean and Rachel. Claremont saw it that way, but of course other writers had other ideas.
    Of course Jean will be phoienix again. I just don't think it will be soon

    I think that it would be good to establish Jean feats without the phoenix first

    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    Not really. It still shows Jean as the host of hosts, and that the Phoenix will do just about anything to have Jean host her. Jean rejected her because she can't continue to live in that cycle of life and death that is so natural to the Phoenix.
    Jean last dead had nothing to do with Phoenix
    Last edited by spirit2011; 08-17-2019 at 01:17 PM.

  9. #5319
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    I absolutely LOVED Morrison's X-Men and his Jean in particular.

  10. #5320
    Astonishing Member PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    Disney stuff is as human as Morrison stuff. People seriously need to stop liking messed up behavior with being human, while being a good person or whatever health relationship is unreal and not human.
    Both are every human, we have stop with this cinism before we reach the bottom.

    Claremont is much better than Morrison, Claremont saved x-men from being canceled and made it the biggest Marvel franchise. Morrison never did it

    Morrison could only dream about here comes tomorrow being better than dark phoenix, it wasn't even about jean or phoenix.


    Yeah Rosenberg ignored, but also there is a lack of good phoenix stories since dark phoenix


    Of course Jean will be phoienix again. I just don't think it will be soon

    I think that it would be good to establish Jean feats without the phoenix first



    Jean last dead had nothing to do with Phoenix
    Clairemont is pure nostalgia. He is the worst culprit of "show don't tell" in the history of comic books. He didn't write comic books. He wrote novels that occasionally had comic images in them. And while the stories themselves were fine, his style doesn't really hold up over time and his attempts in the 2000s proved that.

    Morrison's Jean was the best she has ever been written, hands down. It was the only run where she balanced being compassionate and kind with being powerful and effective in her job. Remove Joe Quesada from the equation, and you have a near flawless run for Jean. Instead, we get Quesada wanting the relationships changed because he self-inserts at Scott, and that's where the problems come in.
    "It is the truest mark of heroism: to give your life aware that those you save will never know."

  11. #5321
    Incredible Member MechaJeanix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    Disney stuff is as human as Morrison stuff. People seriously need to stop liking messed up behavior with being human, while being a good person or whatever health relationship is unreal and not human.
    Both are every human, we have stop with this cinism before we reach the bottom.

    Claremont is much better than Morrison, Claremont saved x-men from being canceled and made it the biggest Marvel franchise. Morrison never did it

    Morrison could only dream about here comes tomorrow being better than dark phoenix, it wasn't even about jean or phoenix.


    Yeah Rosenberg ignored, but also there is a lack of good phoenix stories since dark phoenix


    Of course Jean will be phoienix again. I just don't think it will be soon

    I think that it would be good to establish Jean feats without the phoenix first



    Jean last dead had nothing to do with Phoenix
    I'm sorry but humans have a lot of flaws and relationships are super hard. I know some few luck out, but most relationships take a ton of work and as much as you want you can't control another person. Claremont wrote characters with a ton of flaws as well and so did other writers. I mean just look at Scott's history. Morrison did add some soapy drama but all good serials have soapy drama. Claremont turned the X-men into a soap opera.

    I don't know about the rest of you but I'm constantly shocked at my place of work about who is sleeping/cheating with whom. I always thought people went to work to.. well work. So maybe I'm jaded, but it is not surprising that Scott had a psychic affair with Emma. I know some fans will always hate it but it did make both Scott, Jean, and Emma seem more realistic and more human.

    Morrison's Jean will probably always be my favorite and I am thankful such a talented writer got to add to her story. Claremont, and I don't mean any disrespect is a good writer too especially in his early run. My favorite versions of Jean are Morrison, Claremont, and now Tom Taylor. I hope Hickman does a good Jean (and the writer of X-force who I forget at the moment).

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  12. #5322
    Fire and life incarnate! phoenixzero23's Avatar
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    Do we know Cebulski's stand towards Jean?

    edit: Also ewww, i wouldn't wish the Morrison treatment to any relationship, please don't tell he was making the relationship a favor by destroying it and making people hate it, that doesn't humanize anything. Imagine if someone did that to your favorite couple.
    Last edited by phoenixzero23; 08-17-2019 at 01:22 PM.
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    Jean/Scott, Wanda/Vision, Rogue/Gambit, Storm/Black Panther

  13. #5323
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    Clairemont is pure nostalgia. He is the worst culprit of "show don't tell" in the history of comic books. He didn't write comic books. He wrote novels that occasionally had comic images in them. And while the stories themselves were fine, his style doesn't really hold up over time and his attempts in the 2000s proved that.

    Morrison's Jean was the best she has ever been written, hands down. It was the only run where she balanced being compassionate and kind with being powerful and effective in her job. Remove Joe Quesada from the equation, and you have a near flawless run for Jean. Instead, we get Quesada wanting the relationships changed because he self-inserts at Scott, and that's where the problems come in.
    Maybe I didn't understand well but Claremont was talking and made talking a lot. Probably more than it's usual in comics. In US comics anyway. In European comics, during Claremont's Golden Age, a lot of text wasn't unusual.

    Saying he didn't write comic books is a bit like saying blockbusters aren't movies.
    If I offended you, be assured that it wasn't my intention. English is not my first language.

  14. #5324
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    Not really. It still shows Jean as the host of hosts, and that the Phoenix will do just about anything to have Jean host her. Jean rejected her because she can't continue to live in that cycle of life and death that is so natural to the Phoenix.
    The biggest issue with Phoenix is the power escalation the entity has been given - originally, it was just supposed to put Jean on a footing similar to Thor, which is quite doable, but now it's more powerful than a team of every character who has ever wielded the hammer put together, and it limits what a writer can do if they want to use other characters. A team of Paladin, Black Cat, Misty Knight, Punisher, and Thor with the Odinpower (or whatever they are calling it) isn't going to be interesting, because it will either sideline most of the team, or Worf-effect one person constantly. Jean being the most powerful person on her team isn't an issue, every team is going to have one person who is more powerful than the others - even the Stepford Cuckoos seem to have a pecking order when it comes to power/stamina levels. It's when one person is several orders of magnitude more powerful than the entire rest of the team combined that it becomes an issue. Breaking up with the Phoenix is a good thing, it lets Jean be powerful without needing an outside force to be so.
    "Theory: The Phoenix doesn't corrupt the characters, it corrupts the authors." Gambit, King of Thieves

  15. #5325
    Ultimate Member Wiccan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenixzero23 View Post
    Do we know Cebulski's stand towards Jean?
    I don't think he has ever talked about her.

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