Jean Grey: Marvel Girl, Phoenix Appreciation 2019

[Harpsikord]

If you all recall the team on Chaos War X-men implied they weren't allowed to use Jean at that time. We will really never know the true reason Jean wasn't used when other main characters were temporarily brought back to life. It may be because they didn't know how to explain Jean's status (in Endsong she was searching/collecting the missing pieces of the Phoenix but they came to ignore that), and in Avengers vs X-men the Phoenix was coming back together to go for Hope.

As you all know I love Morrison's version of the Phoenix and of course Claremont's, but in Pak's Endsong Jean and the Phoenix were merged, were one, and Jean didn't seem to think of the Phoenix as this evil destructive force. I hate the Phoenix being made into a villain and a trickster entity that others make it to be (see Excalibur, Phoenix Resurrection, etc).

I did like Hopeless having Jean say the Phoenix was both good and bad. That pretty much sums it up at this point.

I don't think that Resurrection painted the Phoenix Force as inherently being a villain so much as it painted Jean wanting to be own woman for a while - and honestly I don't agree with or like the break up anymore. I did at first, but given Endsong and Morrison's run I don't think it makes sense. I'd much prefer a Jean who is Phoenix because the Phoenix Force is intrinsically tied to Jean now, and should feel like a natural extension of herself.

[RachelGrey]

It kind of saddens me that there are so many fans who didn't watch Dark Phoenix when it came out. Even among die hard Jean Grey fans many of us didn't go and support the film. I understand the many reasons why we didn't. I still watched it multiple times opening weekend. I just couldn't help myself. I hate that a movie centered on Jean Grey did so poorly but the people behind the movie made so many bad choices.. if you watch the commentary on the DVD then you know what I'm talking about. These folks were clueless.

We have had two dark phoenix movies and yet no phoenix effect and no developing Jean Grey so that we would care about her and her story.. her struggle/pain.. and her relationships to the X-men.

I watched the movie when it came out on video. They didn't read the source material.

Plus it felt like they were actually re-interpreting frigging X3. Which doesn't surprise me because the same people were involved in Dark Phoenix.

It should have been done over two movies and they should have had Jean become Dark Phoenix at the end of the first movie and then continue the story into the 2nd.

I imagine we won't see Phoenix in the MCU for a long time, if ever, it's pretty much a movie curse now and they should probably just do an animated movie for it where they can make it reasonably close to the original story.

[MechaJeanix]

I don't think that Resurrection painted the Phoenix Force as inherently being a villain so much as it painted Jean wanting to be own woman for a while - and honestly I don't agree with or like the break up anymore. I did at first, but given Endsong and Morrison's run I don't think it makes sense. I'd much prefer a Jean who is Phoenix because the Phoenix Force is intrinsically tied to Jean now, and should feel like a natural extension of herself.

In the Jean Grey solo the Phoenix was described as a villain to be defeated by Hope and pretty much all the former hosts other than Rachel. In Resurrection the Phoenix was manipulating Jean. It turned their beautiful connection into an unhealthy relationship because that is how Rosenberg views it. I don't know how he gets that from previous Jean Grey/Phoenix stories.

Jean also didn't seem to understand the Phoenix or her role with it which also contradicts the other stories. Even in the Jean Grey solo the Phoenix says that Jean had embraced the Phoenix fully but in Resurrection she was over it. She wanted to die like a normal person and now we have Jean in another cycle of death and rebirth thanks to Xavier and his resurrection protocols. It is sort of funny.. but at least there isn't much of a waiting period with Xavier than with the Phoenix.

[Divine Spark]

We have had two dark phoenix movies and yet no phoenix effect and no developing Jean Grey so that we would care about her and her story.. her struggle/pain.. and her relationships to the X-men.

There was development for Sophie’s Jean. She had a backstory and inner demons to overcome at the of the movie. Like an actual protagonist.

[MechaJeanix]

There was development for Sophie’s Jean. She had a backstory and inner demons to overcome at the of the movie. Like an actual protagonist.

Yes, but I don't think many fans connected with her struggle. I think we would feel and care for Jean if we saw the Phoenix saga first and then followed with Dark Phoenix. In Apocalypse she didn't really burst out with the Phoenix until the main end. We could kind of see a flirtation with her and Scott but in Dark Phoenix the relationship was just there. We missed beats in the story. The story felt incomplete.

Jean did struggle but did Sophie pull off the emotion? I like her as an actress but I don't know if she had the acting skills to pull off this emotional arc.

[spirit2011]

I don't think that Resurrection painted the Phoenix Force as inherently being a villain so much as it painted Jean wanting to be own woman for a while - and honestly I don't agree with or like the break up anymore. I did at first, but given Endsong and Morrison's run I don't think it makes sense. I'd much prefer a Jean who is Phoenix because the Phoenix Force is intrinsically tied to Jean now, and should feel like a natural extension of herself.

Writers and editors never seem to agree on things about phoenix. Endsong was never followed upon.

Phoenix can't be one with Jean anymore, specially after Hope, Waolverine and P5

[Harpsikord]

I think the only one of those that has a specific connection with the Phoenix in a "one true host" capacity is Hope, but an argument can be made that she was just a means to an end.

[spirit2011]

I think the only one of those that has a specific connection with the Phoenix in a "one true host" capacity is Hope, but an argument can be made that she was just a means to an end.

I think Hope already reduces Jean importance to the Phoenix. It wasn't a good decision instead of ressurrecting Jean (that is what Carey really wanted); they just create another perfect host;
Phoenix story was being watered down for some realy bad reasons

At the time of Necrosha and Chaos War Marvel was pushing Hope as the next One True Phoenix while acting like Jean was dead, with editorial even going so far as to say that her appearance in Sisterhood was a hallucination.

(Because if Emma was hallucinating the first thing she'd see is Jean, right?)

Also say what you will about Dark Phoenix but I think it's done at least one thing for the better that most other adaptions don't do: changed it so that Jean survived.

seems lik emarvel didn't want any chance for Jean showing up. Really petty

Yes, but I don't think many fans connected with her struggle. I think we would feel and care for Jean if we saw the Phoenix saga first and then followed with Dark Phoenix. In Apocalypse she didn't really burst out with the Phoenix until the main end. We could kind of see a flirtation with her and Scott but in Dark Phoenix the relationship was just there. We missed beats in the story. The story felt incomplete.

Jean did struggle but did Sophie pull off the emotion? I like her as an actress but I don't know if she had the acting skills to pull off this emotional arc.

On game of thrones Sophie had the best directors and scripters, it showed on the DP movie how script and directing was awful.

There wasn't any building up for a phoenix movies, to arrive there, should there have been at least 2 or 3 movies.
the 10 year jumps almost function as a way to make each movie a anthology

[Harpsikord]

I think Hope already reduces Jean importance to the Phoenix. It wasn't a good decision instead of ressurrecting Jean (that is what Carey really wanted); they just create another perfect host;
Phoenix story was being watered down for some realy bad reasons

I don't think Hope is exactly a problem when it comes to Jean, she hasn't been able to harness the Phoenix since then. Jean has been wholly treated as the Phoenix's true or idealized host since teen Jean started showing up and started running from it, and even now, I don't think it'd be a problem. Again, Hope was just a means to an end for the Phoenix to restart the X-Gene. Jean could regain the Phoenix Force because she is the Phoenix, the only one that can entirely control it.

Using the Jean solo as a spring-board Jean would be the only host whose mind the Phoenix Force doesn't virtually fry.

[PsychoEFrost]

In the Jean Grey solo the Phoenix was described as a villain to be defeated by Hope and pretty much all the former hosts other than Rachel. In Resurrection the Phoenix was manipulating Jean. It turned their beautiful connection into an unhealthy relationship because that is how Rosenberg views it. I don't know how he gets that from previous Jean Grey/Phoenix stories.

Jean also didn't seem to understand the Phoenix or her role with it which also contradicts the other stories. Even in the Jean Grey solo the Phoenix says that Jean had embraced the Phoenix fully but in Resurrection she was over it. She wanted to die like a normal person and now we have Jean in another cycle of death and rebirth thanks to Xavier and his resurrection protocols. It is sort of funny.. but at least there isn't much of a waiting period with Xavier than with the Phoenix.

The other hosts didn't so much call it a "villain" as much as they were scared of the ramifications of the power. QQQ saw the damage to his mind for trying to wield it when he wasn't ready (Warsong/Endsong). Hope saw it corrupt the P5, even if it wasn't entirely their fault. While they turned the responsibility as a host into more of a burden, there's nothing inherently wrong with that.

[Divine Spark]

Yes, but I don't think many fans connected with her struggle. I think we would feel and care for Jean if we saw the Phoenix saga first and then followed with Dark Phoenix. In Apocalypse she didn't really burst out with the Phoenix until the main end. We could kind of see a flirtation with her and Scott but in Dark Phoenix the relationship was just there. We missed beats in the story. The story felt incomplete.

Jean did struggle but did Sophie pull off the emotion? I like her as an actress but I don't know if she had the acting skills to pull off this emotional arc.

I would argue(and other people have) that the movie was more like the Phoenix Saga than the Dark Phoenix Saga. Because Jean wasn’t really portrayed as villainous in the movie but more like someone suffering from schizophrenia, which was the filmmakers intent. The worst she does is kill Mystique and that was an accident.

The movie was more about her rise than her fall.

[spirit2011]

I don't think Hope is exactly a problem when it comes to Jean, she hasn't been able to harness the Phoenix since then. Jean has been wholly treated as the Phoenix's true or idealized host since teen Jean started showing up and started running from it, and even now, I don't think it'd be a problem. Again, Hope was just a means to an end for the Phoenix to restart the X-Gene. Jean could regain the Phoenix Force because she is the Phoenix, the only one that can entirely control it.

Using the Jean solo as a spring-board Jean would be the only host whose mind the Phoenix Force doesn't virtually fry.

I think that was a interpretation from writer, because no one else recognized its effects. Also Hope dealt with Phoenix wihout any damage per the solo issue

true that we never saw Hope wields phoenix, but she also barely was seen and Jeen was back. it has more to do with outside factos than in story. the fact that the force can pop up perfect host from nowhere was extremely dumb

[Harpsikord]

I think that was a interpretation from writer, because no one else recognized its effects. Also Hope dealt with Phoenix wihout any damage per the solo issue

true that we never saw Hope wields phoenix, but she also barely was seen and Jeen was back. it has more to do with outside factos than in story. the fact that the force can pop up perfect host from nowhere was extremely dumb

It doesn't have to be dumb. the Phoenix as a force has potentially omnipotent power, so when it sees that it needs something to help bring back mutants and the x-gene, of course it would help create someone - something - capable of at least temporarily hosting it without any ill effects in order to achieve it's purpose. I think the problem that pops up, then, is that Hope was given two deceased, human, parents when she could have either been a result of immaculate conception or just be a literal child of the Phoenix entirely.

[spirit2011]

It doesn't have to be dumb. the Phoenix as a force has potentially omnipotent power, so when it sees that it needs something to help bring back mutants and the x-gene, of course it would help create someone - something - capable of at least temporarily hosting it without any ill effects in order to achieve it's purpose. I think the problem that pops up, then, is that Hope was given two deceased, human, parents when she could have either been a result of immaculate conception or just be a literal child of the Phoenix entirely.

It would be far easier just ressurrect Jean than create a baby as a new host. A baby can't wield the Phoenix, they had to go to future and keep traveling to Hope could get older enough to be a host. if they waited her get old enough it would take forever to get new mutants
Only Hope mother died, her father is out there.
Mutants failed, so why would Phoenix care so much about mutants?

[Harpsikord]

It would be far easier just ressurrect Jean than create a baby as a new host. A baby can't wield the Phoenix, they had to go to future and keep traveling to Hope could get older enough to be a host. if they waited her get old enough it would take forever to get new mutants
Only Hope mother died, her father is out there.
Mutants failed, so why would Phoenix care so much about mutants?

I don't subscribe to Hickman's backward ideology that the future of the Earth is human, and neither does the Phoenix Force, clearly. The Phoenix is all about life, rebirth, and evolution - so mutants are the next step in human evolution. In human life. So of course, it would be invested.

The Phoenix is, again, omnipotent. It could probably have aged Hope itself when it got to Earth, she didn't need to be taken to the future. That was for her protection.

I'm not arguing that it would have been easier just to resurrect Jean, but keep in mind that theoretically Jean was the White Phoenix of the Crown at this time and so would have actually been the one making all of the decisions in regards to Hope's creation. The Phoenix wasn't whole yet, but she still needed her Catalyst.