Jean Grey: Marvel Girl, Phoenix Appreciation 2019

[phoenixzero23]

If Nate is the bad guy, why is jean on his team?

[TheDeadSpace]

If Nate is the bad guy, why is jean on his team?

Well, they seem to be copying age of apocalypse quite a bit. So, instead of putting Jean as an outlaw initially like the other story, it seems they are putting her in Scott's position as evil then good.

[phoenixzero23]

Well, they seem to be copying age of apocalypse quite a bit. So, instead of putting Jean as an outlaw initially like the other story, it seems they are putting her in Scott's position as evil then good.

Makes sense, thank you

[spirit2011]

i didn't imagine it was going to be bishop but now it seems very likely. Not that there is a problem with him or any other character really
What i find complicated is tieing development to a relationship. For example, look at scemma. It did wonders for emma and elevated her profile very high but what happens to emma the moment scott is gone or is paired with someone else?
Jean, Logan and Scott don't depend on romantic relationships to get spotlight or development. whoever it is i hope their relationship doesn't become dependant.
i also hope there aren't love triangles (probably there will be). i really want marvel to treat other characters or relationships with respect but they are famous for doing the opposite.

I know that love triangles are hated but they generated buzz. it did well for hunger games and twilight
Every couple need some kind of tension, even the loved scemma had a love triangle (that people love to not mention). That is thing that happens, i don't believe on all bad things people say about logan/scott/jean, it was far away from being the worse thing to happen with these characters.
Emma was a far more independent character before Morrison, she had her own school on Generation X. Morrison downgraded her in many ways.
It would be sad if the only way to showcase the black charcter was hooking him up with a popular character, but I'm not against it.
I guess Bishop would get spotlight any way

[mogwen]

I know that love triangles are hated but they generated buzz. it did well for hunger games and twilight
Every couple need some kind of tension, even the loved scemma had a love triangle (that people love to not mention). That is thing that happens, i don't believe on all bad things people say about logan/scott/jean, it was far away from being the worse thing to happen with these characters.
Emma was a far more independent character before Morrison, she had her own school on Generation X. Morrison downgraded her in many ways.
It would be sad if the only way to showcase the black charcter was hooking him up with a popular character, but I'm not against it.
I guess Bishop would get spotlight any way

I can only talk for myself, I don't hate the Scott/Jean/Logan love triangle but it was too often used as to hide a lack of character development.
For Emma, I don't agree with you, Generation X didn't sell and Morrison took her from a cancelled serie to the spotlights, he set the events in motion that made her a major player in mutant affairs. No small feat!

[phoenixzero23]

I can only talk for myself, I don't hate the Scott/Jean/Logan love triangle but it was too often used as to hide a lack of character development.
For Emma, I don't agree with you, Generation X didn't sell and Morrison took her from a cancelled serie to the spotlights, he set the events in motion that made her a major player in mutant affairs. No small feat!

at the expense of Jean's death and as i said before thanks to being tied to Scott. Jean being alive and if scemma doesn't happen are hugel deal changers for Emma and the place she had since morrison, it would probably destroy some of that development or make it null.

edit: i didn't want to take a jab at emma. I do that sometimes but this time it was unintentional. I'm trying to make an example of how tieing a character development to a relationship is probably not the best thing. Love is not forever on marvel just look at scott and jean

[FUBAR007]

I can only talk for myself, I don't hate the Scott/Jean/Logan love triangle but it was too often used as to hide a lack of character development.
For Emma, I don't agree with you, Generation X didn't sell and Morrison took her from a cancelled serie to the spotlights, he set the events in motion that made her a major player in mutant affairs. No small feat!

Relatively speaking, Generation X sold fine. It, along with X-Man, was canceled due to editorial fiat. Quesada had just been promoted to editor-in-chief and wanted to change the makeup of the X-Men titles.

You are correct, though, that Morrison elevated Emma to the "a-list" of X-Men characters. Unfortunately, it led to her degenerating into a Jean substitute.

[FUBAR007]

Morrison didn't hate Jean.

Although it is true that he compared Jean to his ex-girlfriend and Emma to his current one at the time-- he also described Scott, Logan and Jean to the Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman of the X-Men. He described Jean in his New 121 script as looking like an MTV pop star. I remember him also describing her as having an off center personality and as trying so hard to be good that she sometimes forgets to be human. He said he was exploring what if Jean really was a goddess and what happens when she becomes more and more empathic.

He did seem to think that Scott and Jeans relationship had become stale tho. He also clearly loved Emma. I think he loved Jean and Emma for different reasons and in different ways.

He may have killed Jean but he also established that she dies to return, always coming back. Heck, Rosenberg even used Morrison's Phoenix Egg concept to bring Jean back.

Quesada kept Jean dead for so long. Ironically, according to Fraction, Quesada created (the idea of) Hope, originally to be Jean reborn but they later decided to go in a different direction. Luckily, they allowed Bendis to bring in Teen Jean and Rosenberg to bring Adult Jean back. The rest is history as they say.

From p. 225 of Comics Creators on X-Men by Tom DeFalco, here's Morrison on why he broke up Scott and Jean:

The way I saw it was that Jean and Scott had become remote. For me, the great emotional moment for Scott and Jean was when they ran out to die together on the moon during the Phoenix Saga. After Jean died, Scott ended up with a lot of other women. Scott was very attractive to women even though he didn't know it and I wanted to play around with that. Since he was becoming emotionally remote from Jean, because she was becoming more and more godlike, it just seemed like he would naturally fall into the arms of someone more emotionally connected, which Emma actually was. Yes, it was a kind of adultery, but at the same time Jean wasn't being his wife any more. I just felt that the spark between them had died out and it was time to give Scott someone else.

IIRC, the stuff about him basing Jean on his ex-girlfriend and Emma on his current girlfriend/wife came from comments he made in an earlier interview. It may have been in Wizard while he was writing New X-Men.

When it comes to Scott and Jean, I think Morrison was full of ****. But, YMMV.

[TheCape]

From p. 225 of Comics Creators on X-Men by Tom DeFalco, here's Morrison on why he broke up Scott and Jean:

The way I saw it was that Jean and Scott had become remote. For me, the great emotional moment for Scott and Jean was when they ran out to die together on the moon during the Phoenix Saga. After Jean died, Scott ended up with a lot of other women. Scott was very attractive to women even though he didn't know it and I wanted to play around with that. Since he was becoming emotionally remote from Jean, because she was becoming more and more godlike, it just seemed like he would naturally fall into the arms of someone more emotionally connected, which Emma actually was. Yes, it was a kind of adultery, but at the same time Jean wasn't being his wife any more. I just felt that the spark between them had died out and it was time to give Scott someone else.

IIRC, the stuff about him basing Jean on his ex-girlfriend and Emma on his current girlfriend/wife came from comments he made in an earlier interview. It may have been in Wizard while he was writing New X-Men.

When it comes to Scott and Jean, I think Morrison was full of ****. But, YMMV.

"Jean wasn't being his wife anymore"

That f*$% does that mean? I never got that part of his stament.

[phoenixzero23]

From p. 225 of Comics Creators on X-Men by Tom DeFalco, here's Morrison on why he broke up Scott and Jean:

The way I saw it was that Jean and Scott had become remote. For me, the great emotional moment for Scott and Jean was when they ran out to die together on the moon during the Phoenix Saga. After Jean died, Scott ended up with a lot of other women. Scott was very attractive to women even though he didn't know it and I wanted to play around with that. Since he was becoming emotionally remote from Jean, because she was becoming more and more godlike, it just seemed like he would naturally fall into the arms of someone more emotionally connected, which Emma actually was. Yes, it was a kind of adultery, but at the same time Jean wasn't being his wife any more. I just felt that the spark between them had died out and it was time to give Scott someone else.

IIRC, the stuff about him basing Jean on his ex-girlfriend and Emma on his current girlfriend/wife came from comments he made in an earlier interview. It may have been in Wizard while he was writing New X-Men.

When it comes to Scott and Jean, I think Morrison was full of ****. But, YMMV.

What a douche, like he could have broken their marriage without shitting on the relationship/characters forever. It was something beautiful that deserved better.

[TheDeadSpace]

What a douche, like he could have broken their marriage without shitting on the relationship/characters forever. It was something beautiful that deserved better.

Are we sure he's talking about Scott in that? Seems like he put more personal stuff into the writing than he thought. Also, agreed.

[FUBAR007]

"Jean wasn't being his wife anymore"

That f*$% does that mean? I never got that part of his stament.

Morrison's intent was that Jean, because she was turning into the Phoenix again, was becoming less and less human and therefore less and less in touch with human emotions, including Scott's feelings and her own. In effect, she froze Scott out, and they drifted apart.

Morrison abjectly failed to convey this in the stories as published. Instead, what was conveyed was the opposite: Scott froze Jean out because he was PTSD and having an identity crisis after being merged with Apocalypse. Scott felt tainted and dirty, and he couldn't satisfactorily express how he felt to Jean. Jean, meanwhile, refused to reactivate their telepathic rapport. Why? Morrison never provided an explanation. AFAIK, no subsequent writer ever has, either.

All of this was diametrically opposite to how Scott and Jean would behave given their history and characterization up to that point. It was an out-of-character shitshow from beginning to end.

[phoenixzero23]

Morrison's intent was that Jean, because she was turning into the Phoenix again, was becoming less and less human and therefore less and less in touch with human emotions, including Scott's feelings and her own. In effect, she froze Scott out, and they drifted apart.

Morrison abjectly failed to convey this in the stories as published. Instead, what was conveyed was the opposite: Scott froze Jean out because he was PTSD and having an identity crisis after being merged with Apocalypse. Scott felt tainted and dirty, and he couldn't satisfactorily express how he felt to Jean. Jean, meanwhile, refused to reactivate their telepathic rapport. Why? Morrison never provided an explanation. AFAIK, no subsequent writer ever has, either.

All of this was diametrically opposite to how Scott and Jean would behave given their history and characterization up to that point. It was an out-of-character shitshow from beginning to end.

What i hate is that this is what has defined their relationship for the last 14 years. It doesn't matter if it is the most famous x-men romance, if it lasted more than any other or had the best stories, it is trash because the last writer treated it like trash more than a decade ago.

[mogwen]

Relatively speaking, Generation X sold fine. It, along with X-Man, was canceled due to editorial fiat. Quesada had just been promoted to editor-in-chief and wanted to change the makeup of the X-Men titles.

You are correct, though, that Morrison elevated Emma to the "a-list" of X-Men characters. Unfortunately, it led to her degenerating into a Jean substitute.

To be honest I didn't follow the titles regularly since the end of Whedon's run. The Ellis run wasn't that good (and I don't like Simone Bianchi's art and costume design for the team), and Fraction and Greg Land made me flee the X-Men for a longtime and I only recently came back with X-Men Red, I watched the rest from afar, and I wasn't interested with what I saw.

I like Jean and Emma, their first fight during Byrne's run is one of my first childhood memory of comics. And I was glad Jean's death allowed for Emma to take a more central place and her lovestory with Scott questionned the notion of fate, which was interesting. What if what we've been told from the start was ultimately wrong? I just didn't expect Jean to be dead for 14 years!!!
In fact after Jean's death I expected the others to joke about the fact that one day she will come through the school's doorstep with the breakfast. I thought she would be gone for what?
3/4 years, something like that.
It allowed for important character growth for scott during Whedon's run but all that came after only enhanced the fact that without Jean, the X-Men had lost their soul, their compass.

[FUBAR007]

To be honest I didn't follow the titles regularly since the end of Whedon's run. The Ellis run wasn't that good (and I don't like Simone Bianchi's art and costume design for the team), and Fraction and Greg Land made me flee the X-Men for a longtime and I only recently came back with X-Men Red, I watched the rest from afar, and I wasn't interested with what I saw.

In most of the stories after Whedon's run and before AvX, they could've swapped Emma out for Jean and the difference would've been negligible. Emma had Jean's role and performed Jean's functions--team mom, team telepath, Scott's lover--just with blonder hair, bigger boobs, and snarkier dialogue. Other than her snotty attitude, there wasn't much there that was uniquely Emma anymore.

I like Jean and Emma, their first fight during Byrne's run is one of my first childhood memory of comics. And I was glad Jean's death allowed for Emma to take a more central place and her lovestory with Scott questionned the notion of fate, which was interesting. What if what we've been told from the start was ultimately wrong? I just didn't expect Jean to be dead for 14 years!!!
In fact after Jean's death I expected the others to joke about the fact that one day she will come through the school's doorstep with the breakfast. I thought she would be gone for what?
3/4 years, something like that.
It allowed for important character growth for scott during Whedon's run but all that came after only enhanced the fact that without Jean, the X-Men had lost their soul, their compass.

Well, she's back now. I liked Taylor's take on her, and I hope the writers do her character--and Emma's for that matter--justice going forward.