Jean Grey: Marvel Girl, Phoenix Appreciation 2019

[Omega Alpha]

Did you read the Uncanny annual or Scott's guest spot in Champions? Scott has changed due to his experiences and memories from Teen Scott. Teen Scott was horrified by what Adult Scott had become. Adult Scott now feels that he was wrong. Do the math. The article by Trent Seeley about this was correct and JDW confirmed that. It was so clear to me that I was shocked Seeley acted like his conclusion was just a theory because it seemed obvious for me just by reading the books!

The problem is that Teen Scott WASN'T horrified by what Scott became. You missed that the point of his arc, TWICE, was he became horrified by what people told him about Scott, but once he learned the truth, he was fine. It not only happened in Bendis' run, but after SW, with the Cyclops was Hitler stuff.

[MechaJeanix]

Yeah, we read it. But until editorial actually lets us know what Scott did that so monstrously horrible that he's spent all Uncanny whining and moping about it, it doesn't do us a lot of good. All it has shown us was that Tyke was a whiny insufferable loser with absolutely zero of any of Scott's positive traits. I'm totally willing to believe Wi-Fi is his kid, they're both enormously stupid brats.

Well this is the problem. Teen Scott didn't like who Adult Scott became, but for the die hard fans they didn't see anything negative about what Scott become or the actions he took. So there is a big disconnect here and I don't think the RightClops fans will get the explanation or closure that you all want or feel that you deserve. But again other fans groups have dealt with this too.. I mean this is the Jean thread and this character has been retconned and reset more than most.

[Omega Alpha]

Well this is the problem. Teen Scott didn't like who Adult Scott became, but for the die hard fans they didn't see anything negative about what Scott become or the actions he took. So there is a big disconnect here and I don't think the RightClops fans will get the explanation or closure that you all want or feel that you deserve. But again other fans groups have dealt with this too.. I mean this is the Jean thread and this character has been retconned and reset more than most.

But saying Tyke hated Cyclops ignores the character arc he and the rest of the 05 had- there's a reason they all abandoned the JGS, and it was teenage Hank who disliked more his counterpart.

[MechaJeanix]

But saying Tyke hated Cyclops ignores the character arc he and the rest of the 05 had- there's a reason they all abandoned the JGS, and it was teenage Hank who disliked more his counterpart.

Well I'm not just talking about the Inhuman stuff. The teen x-men weren't thrilled with the direction of their older selves earlier in the Bendis run. I don't see Teen Scott being ok with X-force killing folks or was Teen Scott too keen about Emma Frost or the fact that his older self killed Xavier, etc.

You are right that it was more complicated than perhaps I made it out to be, but overall Teen Scott's experiences led Adult Scott to re-evaluate his decisions/life choices and he now feels he was wrong. I agree with all of you the comparisons of Scott to Hitler in the books was beyond the pale. At least that was resolved though it was at the expense of Emma's character.

At any rate, I don't want to get too off topic but Scott and Jean have went through a lot of changes since the original O5 years. I anticipate how Hickman will use them both and if we will continue to see much growth from these two.

[Havok83]

To bring it back to Jean, there's two things that need to happen to acknowledge her change from Extermination.

1. Use her pink form. That was the most significant addition to her skillset and it doesnt make sense that she wouldnt use it (especially when being overwhelmed)

2. Acknowledge the relationships she formed with people. So far she hasnt really interacted with anyone new except for Hope and that wasnt touched on at all. Teen Jean got close to Laura, the Cuckoos, Glob Herman, trained with Scarlet Witch, Thor, and Namor not to mention she had a different dynamic with Emma, Kitty and Magik. We havent see any of this addressed yet and it needs to be, just like it was with Scott in that Champions issue

[phoenixzero23]

Of those we have seen that she still gets along well with Laura and Namor was fine with her on Red. He certainly respected her more than he would to the other X-men.
I think the other relationships were posible because she was younger and the dynamic was different and probably wouldn't work well with her being an adult.
For example Tyke and Laura had a nice dynamic that i doubt can be played with adult Cyclops, something similar would happen with Jean and Glob or Emma.

[Havok83]

Of those we have seen that she still gets along well with Laura and Namor was fine with her on Red. He certainly respected her more than he would to the other X-men.

Red takes place before Extermination and therefore her time as Teen Jean wasnt acknowledged. She was meeting Laura for the first time and reconnecting with Namor for the first time since the early O5 days. Her interactions with them should be different now as she has experiences to draw from which werent a part of her memory in Red. Sadly I dont see Hickman doing any of this

[PsychoEFrost]

Red takes place before Extermination and therefore her time as Teen Jean wasnt acknowledged. She was meeting Laura for the first time and reconnecting with Namor for the first time since the early O5 days. Her interactions with them should be different now as she has experiences to draw from which werent a part of her memory in Red. Sadly I dont see Hickman doing any of this

There is little chance of them using her pink form, unfortunately. Especially with Jean established as the most powerful member of the team without it, adding on to her powerset would definitely create the same issues that the pink form was originally supposed to solve (her being too powerful as Phoenix).

[MechaJeanix]

I wish they would use the pink form but I agree that it is highly unlikely. Bunn only used it a few times and Dennis Hopeless did not use it at all. I like that it gave Jean a distinct look and it was something missing since the Phoenix was stripped from her. I liked how it was theorized in the Trial of Jean Grey that this new power could help her control the Phoenix, but I guess we'll never see if it would have made a difference.

I think Jean could have it without it being made to make her too powerful and unbeatable. Teen Jean was still beatable. I think it was cool that she developed a new aspect of her power and I think if teen Jean had any effect on adult Jean this should be it. But alas it is not to be.

I suspect Hickman will do well with Jean and she may be powerful but I don't think she will be the powerhouse that Teen Jean was or the way X-men Red Jean was used. I hope I'm wrong but I think her powers will be sort of basic.

[phoenixzero23]

Powerful characters are as powerful as the plot demands, if they appear regulary they sadly tend to be weaker.
Sometimes Superman is an absolute titan but most of the time he gets beaten by the villain of the week.

[Ulfhammer]

Powerful characters are as powerful as the plot demands, if they appear regulary they sadly tend to be weaker.
Sometimes Superman is an absolute titan but most of the time he gets beaten by the villain of the week.

That's because how interesting a character is, is usually diametrically opposed to how easily they overcome their opposition.

[Havok83]

Powerful characters are as powerful as the plot demands, if they appear regulary they sadly tend to be weaker.
Sometimes Superman is an absolute titan but most of the time he gets beaten by the villain of the week.

the problem is they dont even write Jean to her base power levels. Theres no reason why Jean was more competent and powerful when she was a teen over her in nearly every non-Red book since her return. As a fan, I can say she's been overall pathetic. Its rather disappointing

[phoenixzero23]

the problem is they dont even write Jean to her base power levels. Theres no reason why Jean was more competent and powerful when she was a teen over her in nearly every non-Red book since her return. As a fan, I can say she's been overall pathetic. Its rather disappointing

On that I sadly agree.

[PsychoEFrost]

the problem is they dont even write Jean to her base power levels. Theres no reason why Jean was more competent and powerful when she was a teen over her in nearly every non-Red book since her return. As a fan, I can say she's been overall pathetic. Its rather disappointing

The same can be applied to every "Omega" level telepath. Rachel and Emma are constantly on the "get your ass kicked early or your TP/TK will solve the plot" bandwagon. Betsy and QQQ are reduced to weapon wielders so they can stay involved. Marvel way overbuffed mental powers, and we're still paying for it now.

[MechaJeanix]

The same can be applied to every "Omega" level telepath. Rachel and Emma are constantly on the "get your ass kicked early or your TP/TK will solve the plot" bandwagon. Betsy and QQQ are reduced to weapon wielders so they can stay involved. Marvel way overbuffed mental powers, and we're still paying for it now.

There is a lack of imagination when it comes to psychic powers. The problem is when they write telepathy like blasts out of someone's head or telepathy used to instantly freeze someone or put someone to sleep. It is boring and it is makes a character too powerful. Someone should have to use a lot of thinking to get in someone else's mind. Morrison used a lot of telepaths but they didn't shoot telepathic lightening bolts at people. It was different. I like Jean going in around Cassandra's consciousness or trying to "think" her way into a computer system. Look at the silent issue with how it portrayed Jean and Emma going into Xavier's mind.

I have been reading the original X-men area and Jean used her tk so often. And it was simple stuff but to me it was still cool. It wasnt' rearranging molecules or using uber boring and dull force fields. She actually moved objects with her mind. X-factor Jean was shown to use her tk in a variety of ways too. It was simple but also powerful.

I don't have to see Jean with world ending powers. She has an awesome power set and she should use it. I do want her to be powerful and competent. She should be one of the powerhouses on the team on the level of Storm.