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  1. #5761
    BANNED PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega_DCD View Post
    The D'bari system was a solar system...not a galaxy
    I remember them saying "D'Bari Galaxy" at least a couple times, but it could have been nerfed to solar system destroying power.

  2. #5762
    BANNED PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    Jeen definitely outsmarted the Phoenix at least.
    Sort of. The gambit of "As a Jean Grey and therefore connected to this place, and your status as existing in all timelines, you can't actually get rid of me, and I'll annoy you til the end of time unless you revive me", was certainly a new take on that situation, and it did work.

  3. #5763
    Fire and life incarnate! phoenixzero23's Avatar
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    The limits of the phoenix force are weird. Sometimes it is show to be a cosmic force that powers up it's avatar to ridiculous high levels but somewhere around Galactus tier (a cosmic titan but not on a universal scale).
    but on here comes tomorrow Jean is healing an entire universe.

    Do you guys/girls think it reaches multiversal level?
    (outside of Jean that time I don't remember seeing such a tremendous feat from other host, not even close)
    Last edited by phoenixzero23; 08-26-2019 at 04:55 PM.

  4. #5764
    Incredible Member Omega_DCD's Avatar
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    That's what makes Jean special even amongst other hosts

    I just hate the continual shifting of its characteristics. It's not really supposed to be independently sentient or able to act on this plane of existence. Otherwise why does it need a host?

    Changing it from a force to an entity was a mistake IMO.

    It also doesn't help that it keeps being tampered with...The Shi'ar, Tony Stark, etc.

  5. #5765
    Fire and life incarnate! phoenixzero23's Avatar
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    Yes, making it sentient could have been a mistake. It should be a force of nature, a law of the universe

  6. #5766
    BANNED PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenixzero23 View Post
    The limits of the phoenix force are weird. Sometimes it is show to be a cosmic force that powers up it's avatar to ridiculous high levels but somewhere around Galactus tier (a cosmic titan but not on a universal scale).
    but on here comes tomorrow Jean is healing an entire universe.

    Do you guys/girls think it reaches multiversal level?
    (outside of Jean that time I don't remember seeing such a tremendous feat from other host, not even close)
    The Phoenix places its host somewhere in the tier of Galactus, but that's only around 10% of the Phoenix's full power. When Jean became White Phoenix of the Crown, she had access to 100%, boosting her TP and TK to reality warper levels, at the cost of only being able to exist within the White Hot Room except for moments at a time.

    The scale (as I understand it, and I do WAY too much research on this) is:

    Host dominant, not in tandem: 5% (Green suit Jean, Rachel)
    Phoenix dominant, not in tandem: 10% (Red suit Jean)
    Host and Phoenix equal, not in tandem: 20% (White Phoenix Jean and White Phoenix Hope)
    One True Host (WPotC): 100%


    Quote Originally Posted by Omega_DCD View Post
    That's what makes Jean special even amongst other hosts

    I just hate the continual shifting of its characteristics. It's not really supposed to be independently sentient or able to act on this plane of existence. Otherwise why does it need a host?

    Changing it from a force to an entity was a mistake IMO.

    It also doesn't help that it keeps being tampered with...The Shi'ar, Tony Stark, etc.
    The Phoenix is technically both. It's a force without a host, energy guided by nothing but the instincts of the Phoenix and its eternal celestial cause. It's an entity when bonded with a host.

  7. #5767
    Astonishing Member TheDeadSpace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    The Phoenix places its host somewhere in the tier of Galactus, but that's only around 10% of the Phoenix's full power. When Jean became White Phoenix of the Crown, she had access to 100%, boosting her TP and TK to reality warper levels, at the cost of only being able to exist within the White Hot Room except for moments at a time.

    The scale (as I understand it, and I do WAY too much research on this) is:

    Host dominant, not in tandem: 5% (Green suit Jean, Rachel)
    Phoenix dominant, not in tandem: 10% (Red suit Jean)
    Host and Phoenix equal, not in tandem: 20% (White Phoenix Jean and White Phoenix Hope)
    One True Host (WPotC): 100%




    The Phoenix is technically both. It's a force without a host, energy guided by nothing but the instincts of the Phoenix and its eternal celestial cause. It's an entity when bonded with a host.
    Honestly, with how messy the phoenix seems to currently be, I think it's a good thing Jean is separated from the phoenix for a while. I think it needs to be entirely reworked before Jean should be reunited with it again; and besides, it feels nice to see Jean do things on her own for once.
    "This is starting to sound like a bad comic book plot"
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  8. #5768
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDeadSpace View Post
    Honestly, with how messy the phoenix seems to currently be, I think it's a good thing Jean is separated from the phoenix for a while. I think it needs to be entirely reworked before Jean should be reunited with it again; and besides, it feels nice to see Jean do things on her own for once.
    Power should endeavor to match power. You wouldn't have Goku seriously fighting street thugs. You wouldn't have Goldballs try and 1v1 Galactus. Jean without the Phoenix is right where the power scaling in X-Men works. She's extremely powerful, regularly competing for the most powerful character on any given team if not winning outright, but galactic and cosmic level threats are something to be taken very seriously.

  9. #5769
    Astonishing Member TheDeadSpace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    Power should endeavor to match power. You wouldn't have Goku seriously fighting street thugs. You wouldn't have Goldballs try and 1v1 Galactus. Jean without the Phoenix is right where the power scaling in X-Men works. She's extremely powerful, regularly competing for the most powerful character on any given team if not winning outright, but galactic and cosmic level threats are something to be taken very seriously.
    True, but I was mainly referring to the overall mythos of the phoenix being convoluted at this point, and there's always the risk of Jean being sidelined or taken out early in fights if her power gets too high. It's probably an unpopular opinion, but is Jean possibly becoming too powerful? Should she be a part of the X-men if that's the case? I'll also say a head of time that I'm just slightly curious, not trying to offend anyone. Either way I'd love to see that Goldballs and Galactus 1v1, now.
    "This is starting to sound like a bad comic book plot"
    -Spider-man

    “Evil is evil...lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same."
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  10. #5770
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDeadSpace View Post
    True, but I was mainly referring to the overall mythos of the phoenix being convoluted at this point, and there's always the risk of Jean being sidelined or taken out early in fights if her power gets too high. It's probably an unpopular opinion, but is Jean possibly becoming too powerful? Should she be a part of the X-men if that's the case? I'll also say a head of time that I'm just slightly curious, not trying to offend anyone. Either way I'd love to see that Goldballs and Galactus 1v1, now.
    Have you read the books featuring her since she got back? If so., then the answer would be no. They say Jean is super powerful but she isnt written as such. She's portrayed weaker than she should be

    Quote Originally Posted by Omega_DCD View Post
    That's what makes Jean special even amongst other hosts

    I just hate the continual shifting of its characteristics. It's not really supposed to be independently sentient or able to act on this plane of existence. Otherwise why does it need a host?

    Changing it from a force to an entity was a mistake IMO.

    It also doesn't help that it keeps being tampered with...The Shi'ar, Tony Stark, etc.
    It doesnt need a host; it prefers one

  11. #5771
    BANNED PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Have you read the books featuring her since she got back? If so., then the answer would be no. They say Jean is super powerful but she isnt written as such. She's portrayed weaker than she should be



    It doesnt need a host; it prefers one
    I think the issue is that no one wanted to push the envelope. The only one who had the chance was Taylor, but he wanted to do a semi-pacifistic approach.

  12. #5772
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    Since this is as good of time to put this up, since it is hilarious.

    JGDTU.jpg

  13. #5773
    Incredible Member Omega_DCD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post




    The Phoenix is technically both. It's a force without a host, energy guided by nothing but the instincts of the Phoenix and its eternal celestial cause. It's an entity when bonded with a host.
    It started (well, as of UXM 137) as a force that needed a living host to act...but after Jean/Dark Phoenix died on the moon...instead of returning to it's natural, non-sentient state, it still held on to the consciousness it gained from Jean's essence. At this time, it noticed Rachel's astral form flying over NY and puzzled by how she could so closely resemble Jean's mind, it followed and eventually stowed away inside of Rachel.

    Fast forward to the battle with Necron, Rachel dies...Phoenix heals her body, but her mind needs more time to heal, Phoenix departs to space...after the encounter with Galactus, Phoenix learns this hybrid state it's been existing in is stealing from life unborn. After talking with Death, it learns what it must do....Rachel finally heals and Phoenix reveals that (in this state) it's not just a force, but also an intelligence. It sheds it's consciousness returns to its natural state, leaving Rachel with limited access to the Force.

    But then you have stuff like Here Comes Tomorrow, and some nebulous, unseen Phoenix Consciousness...Endsong with the Shi'ar bringing back the force without a host, "without it's very heart"...AvX, the Phoenix rampaging and destroying planets, and the Phoenix Five mess.

    And everything else...the stuff in Thor with Quentin...the Thane stuff..the 1 million BC stuff...as a concept the Phoenix has been butchered beyond recognition

  14. #5774

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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    I think the issue is that no one wanted to push the envelope. The only one who had the chance was Taylor, but he wanted to do a semi-pacifistic approach.
    I don't want to start a fight with anyone, but that was one of the reasons I loved New X-Men, Jean had a backbone and a darker edge to her. I know that was partly Jean trying to keep the passion and chaos of the Phoenix in check, but I liked Jean during that run. I think the problem is that they should never have killed Jean off, they could have had her leave the X-Men and join the Avengers for a while if they wanted to give Scott and Jean a break. There was no good reason to kill her off, and it was done poorly. But I really loved New X-Men Jean and how strong she was.

    I have high hopes for Dawn of X because of the first time all my favourite telepaths are going to be active in the X-books at the same time, they are going to be on different books, but this time no one is getting written out. Rachel on X-Men, Jean on X-Force, Emma on Marauders, and Betsy on Excalibur. It's nice to have all four active at once and the writers realizing they don't have to write one out in favour of another. I really hope that they portray Jean strongly, the uniform concerns me because it feels too juvenile. Jean should have a strong presence and I hope the writers realize that and give her a better costume.

    Am I the only one that gets the feeling that Jean is being put in the old Marvel Girl costume because they are doing all the nostalgia covers and the artists want to draw Jean in a more teasing/provocative costume. Her X-Factor and X-Men red costumes are full body and aren't very teasing, I get the feeling that the whole costume thing is just the artists wanting to draw a sexy Jean! Emma is always drawn vamping up, and because she changes costumes depending on the day of the week it's easy to draw Emma sexy, but Jean has been primarily wearing full body suits for a long time in the comics and I think they wanted to do something to make Jean look sexy for the covers. The only problem is that her outfit is dated and makes her look like a teenager, I think it's possible to come up with a costume that makes Jean look like a sophisticated and intelligent woman in her 20's and I wish they would rethink her look.

  15. #5775
    Astonishing Member TheDeadSpace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Have you read the books featuring her since she got back? If so., then the answer would be no. They say Jean is super powerful but she isnt written as such. She's portrayed weaker than she should be
    Yeah, but I feel that type of portrayal is setup in order to compensate for a potential problem. Writers should be able to come up with threats that the heroes struggle to defeat, but it's slightly problematic when the X-men have oddly variable power levels. Jean being portrayed underneath her power level makes me think some writers view it as a problem. Instead of thinking of a reasonable level threat, the go to is to lower her current level.
    "This is starting to sound like a bad comic book plot"
    -Spider-man

    “Evil is evil...lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same."
    -Geralt of Rivia

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